Elder Oaks

[rodheadlee]

5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

But now we do know. We’ve been taught that gender is an essential, unchanging, god-given part of our identity.

What is a parent of a hermaphrodite to do?  What is a hermaphrodite to do?

Pray and listen the the Holy Spirit, proceed accordingly. Why do people always bring up the most extreme cases to make a point? it's no different than being born with some other birth defect.

[SouthernMo]

28 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Pray and listen the the Holy Spirit, proceed accordingly. Why do people always bring up the most extreme cases to make a point? it's no different than being born with some other birth defect.

It’s important to bring up extreme cases because they test the validity of a position. If it is LDS leaders’ position that gender is eternal, we need to have answers - even for the extreme cases.

If they have an answer, it increases the validity of the position. If they don’t have an answer, it shows me that the position is perhaps not as well thought out as it should be.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

So do you believe those who were born as hermaphrodites were male and female before they were born and will be 10 trillion years from now?

A hermaphrodite is a genetic and developmental defect like any other defect such as Downs Syndrome.  The resurrection doctrine does not say we will retain our defects but will be given perfect bodies free from all defects.   We will be perfect in every way. 

[carbon dioxide]

28 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

It’s important to bring up extreme cases because they test the validity of a position. If it is LDS leaders’ position that gender is eternal, we need to have answers - even for the extreme cases.

If they have an answer, it increases the validity of the position. If they don’t have an answer, it shows me that the position is perhaps not as well thought out as it should be.

I often use extreme positions to attack an argument but even the extreme argument has to reflect the issue at hand.  Hermaphrodites and transgenders are not the same.   One is a developmental defect the other is an identity issue.  Transgender people typically have bodies that have developed normally.  They may have issues in the brain going on but those issues have nothing to do with gender itself. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[rodheadlee]

29 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

It’s important to bring up extreme cases because they test the validity of a position. If it is LDS leaders’ position that gender is eternal, we need to have answers - even for the extreme cases.

If they have an answer, it increases the validity of the position. If they don’t have an answer, it shows me that the position is perhaps not as well thought out as it should be.

It's a position of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father not just the LDS leaders.  They know the true sex of the person in question.  I believe the Holy Spirit will give the person an answer  so that they can live their life accordingly.  

[SouthernMo]

6 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I often use extreme positions to attack an argument but even the extreme argument has to reflect the issue at hand.  Hermaphrodites and transgenders are not the same.   One is a developmental defect the other is an identity issue.  Transgender people typically have bodies that have developed normally.  They may have issues in the brain going on but those issues have nothing to do with gender itself. 

Perhaps I misunderstood what Elder Oaks shared today, and am not discussing the issue at hand. I had thought that he taught that gender was god-given and an eternal part of identity.

I simply wonder what the god-given gender hermaphrodites are ‘assigned’ by god, and why god made these (you say) ‘defects.’

[SouthernMo]

4 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I believe the Holy Spirit will give the person an answer  so that they can live their life accordingly.  

So If hermaphrodites can follow the Holy Spirit to live their lives according to the gender they feel correct, why can’t someone who is male follow the Holy Spirit to live as a female?

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

A hermaphrodite is a genetic and developmental defect like any other defect such as Downs Syndrome.  The resurrection doctrine does not say we will retain our defects but will be given perfect bodies free from all defects.   We will be perfect in every way. 

But is it not possible that some dominant male or female physical body is a genetic defect if there can be any genetic defects at all?

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

A hermaphrodite is a genetic and developmental defect like any other defect such as Downs Syndrome.

More accurate term, imo, is intersex as it covers a wider range of variations outside the usual XY/XX versions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

Edited October 7, 2018 by Calm

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

So If hermaphrodites can follow the Holy Spirit to live their lives according to the gender they feel correct, why can’t someone who is male follow the Holy Spirit to live as a female?

Because they are just male.  The Holy Spirit cannot guide someone to be something it is not.  No matter how hard a male may try, they will never be female genotype.  All changes will be superficial.

They do not have a mosaicism disorder like hermaphrodites where they have both sex genes. 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry, we cant talk about that here.

  That's church doctrine but I have been banned from threads for discussing it.

 There are factions in control of the threads who do not accept that. But I will probly get banned anyway.

 I would rather be on the side of Elder Oaks than some factions on this board. 

 Sisters will tell you that they have something unique to contribute. On the other hand they are exactly the same as we are. Go figure. 

 

Hi Amigo: Your thread got my atttention. . . . we are not supposed to discuss church doctrine on this board? A Mormon dialogue and discussion board on which it is not ok to discuss Mormon doctrine? Or am I missing what you are saying underneath your words?

[Navidad]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

But is it not possible that some dominant male or female physical body is a genetic defect if there can be any genetic defects at all?

So can I assume that Saints teach that Down's Syndrome is a defect from which my niece will be "free from" in heaven? I hope not, she is really quite sweet just as she is.

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, Valentinus said:

I don't see why this topic has to be revisited. The LDS church has an official stance on the subject. Whether the membership agrees or disagrees with that position is irrelevant.

I agree with Smac on the wishful thinking. There is no evidence to suggest that the LDS church will change. The church has upheld doctrine that cannot be amended because such an amendment will conflict with the Doctrine and Covenants. Consistency must be maintained in order for the LDS church to survive.

The Church of Jesus Christ has similar stances

[SouthernMo]

40 minutes ago, Anon the Great said:

Hermaphrodites were obviously created to make us think deeper about these ideas.

You bring up good questions, but your statement that hermaphrodites were obviously created to make us think deeper is a statement that takes your point too far.  It’s a possibility, but to say it’s obvious is too much.

[Exiled]

4 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

The Church of Jesus Christ has similar stances

What if once Oaks passes on, the church changes its stance? Would you support it? This supposedly is the essence of "modern revelation," the ability to change course.

It's changed pretty much everything over the years and certainly can on this issue. My guess is that once science shows definitively (and it seems pretty close to doing so) that these preferences are biological and not merely a choice, the church will change, 30 years later.

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi Amigo: Your thread got my atttention. . . . we are not supposed to discuss church doctrine on this board? A Mormon dialogue and discussion board on which it is not ok to discuss Mormon doctrine? Or am I missing what you are saying underneath your words?

It's not my thread.

Elder Oaks most important point was how he defined truth and has vast implications.

It seems of course everyone gravitated to the lowest common denominator which was yet another gender thread.  Truly a shame but it is to be expected I suppose.

And yes, one gets thread-banned in my experience for discussing differences between men and women and in supporting the notion that the commandments prohibit gay behavior.

The board appears saturated with political correctness of late, and the usual tactic of shouting down free speech.   But that is the board, not church doctrine, thank God.  If one speaks against what is considered "politically correct" in our secular society, though it be church doctrine, one is likely to be thread banned.

We shall see if that happens- just watch and see.

But maybe I will start a thread on what Elder Oaks said about truth- which is essentially the view I have taken for years and of course I am sure he has as well, but it is incredible to hear an apostle say that scientific truth is not the same as religious truth.

Mormonism has  Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints typically have been quite fundamentalist in maintaining a world wide flood, no evolution, and a six day creation, while NOT still arguing about heliocentrism, at least.

So it's ok to not believe Bellarmine on heliocentrism and so Galileo wins over Bellarmine, (science wins over a literal Bible)  AND BYU teaches evolution as any University would, BUT the leadership typically still affirms a six day creation and world wide flood. (Bible literalism over science)

I think Elder Oaks blew the need for such literalism out of the water today

I take the position is that these are different paradigms- literalism works for some, and not for others.  But the notion that "both could be right if it helps your understanding of Christ" is quite foreign to most LDS folks

Truth is contextual in Moroni, Alma, James, and Section 93, yet bible literalism and scripture over science still reigns in the hearts of most LDS.

By maintaining that science and religion have different kinds of truth, the door is open to changing all that.

And, Elder Oaks is the next in line to be prophet at this time.

I like it.

 

[SouthernMo]

41 minutes ago, pogi said:

Because they are just male.  The Holy Spirit cannot guide someone to be something it is not.  No matter how hard a male may try, they will never be female genotype.  All changes will be superficial.

They do not have a mosaicism disorder like hermaphrodites where they have both sex genes. 

Perhaps. But then couldn’t we say that a hermaphrodite is a hermaphrodite, and should not live as a male or female?

Perhaps the LDS apostles’ position is that hermaphrodites need to just stay what they are, and never marry, never have sex?

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Exiled said:

What if once Oaks passes on, the church changes its stance? Would you support it? This supposedly is the essence of "modern revelation," the ability to change course.

It's changed pretty much everything over the years and certainly can on this issue. My guess is that once science shows definitively (and it seems pretty close to doing so) that these preferences are biological and not merely a choice, the church will change, 30 years later.

Except of course science has nothing to do with spiritual truth.

Ask a scientist what the purpose of life is and he will be laughed out of the auditorium.

Ask Elder Oaks and he will be glad to oblige with a few hour talk

Yet so many folks have not noticed this major point.    Just listen to the first few minutes.  It is a terrible speech really no matter what side you are on imo.

 

Edited October 7, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

But now we do know. We’ve been taught that gender is an essential, unchanging, god-given part of our identity.

What is a parent of a hermaphrodite to do?  What is a hermaphrodite to do?

They do what they think is best after prayer and consultation with doctors and priesthood leaders and move forward with faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and the mercy of God. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Perhaps. But then couldn’t we say that a hermaphrodite is a hermaphrodite, and should not live as a male or female?

Perhaps the LDS apostles’ position is that hermaphrodites need to just stay what they are, and never marry, never have sex?

Where did he say that?

Strictly plucked out of air based on your prejudices.

No more from me on this thread, I know you are all heart broken. 

 

[mfbukowski]

35 minutes ago, Navidad said:

So can I assume that Saints teach that Down's Syndrome is a defect from which my niece will be "free from" in heaven? I hope not, she is really quite sweet just as she is.

And of course she should never be exceptional.  No one should be, right?

OOPS I lied.  Bye.

Edited October 7, 2018 by mfbukowski

[SouthernMo]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Where did he say that?

He did not say that. I’m just wondering what Oaks’ position is on hermaphrodites. Trying to figure it out because his address seemed to convey an eternally binary and fixed view of gender. 

[Avatar4321]

17 minutes ago, Exiled said:

What if once Oaks passes on, the church changes its stance? Would you support it? This supposedly is the essence of "modern revelation," the ability to change course.

It's changed pretty much everything over the years and certainly can on this issue. My guess is that once science shows definitively (and it seems pretty close to doing so) that these preferences are biological and not merely a choice, the church will change, 30 years later.

What if tomorrow i am given a million dollars?

Hypotheticals are fine for intellectual exercises but they often have no basis in reality.

There is nothing President Oaks taught that was incorrect. 

Whether something is "biological" is irrelevant. The natural man is an enemy to God. Jesus Christ changes human nature

[Tacenda]

51 minutes ago, Navidad said:

So can I assume that Saints teach that Down's Syndrome is a defect from which my niece will be "free from" in heaven? I hope not, she is really quite sweet just as she is.

I so agree! I work in the school district and met a beautiful little girl from Peru. Her parents wanted to see if she could stay in the regular general ed class, she's a 1st grader. I was called in to be with her throughout her day for several weeks to observe if that could be possible. My first day on the job, I thought I was not cut out for the job, very intimitated with children with Down's Syndrome because of my sub'g in special education classes and they are in charge, lol. I didn't do too well, very nervous at first. But in those several weeks of being together every minute almost, I've got to say I grew to love her with all of my heart. She was fiesty and would escape or bolt to go exploring, but being as she spoke Spanish, I can't imagine any other 1st grader that was thrown in a class that didn't speak their native tongue to handle that like she did. She is a champion in my eyes. She knew a few English words, which helped. And she studied so intensely what others did that she copied them and did even better sometimes. She is so bright, and we connected the most when she got silly and did her celebration dances when accomplishing something or our extra long recesses when she absolutely refused to come back in. Last Friday was my last day with her because I'm having to go to another school to help another student. Luciana changed me for life. And how lucky for anyone that gets to have a child like her in their lives. 

Edited October 7, 2018 by Tacenda

[Navidad]

5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And of course she should never be exceptional.  No one should be, right?

OOPS I lied.  Bye.

Actually I think you bring up a good point. She is seen as having a "defect, " being less than," and being disabled. Yet, she is quite exceptional in a lot of ways. She makes almost everyone smile (I'd bet even you too) when she enters a room. So what is the source, the root of exceptionality? Perhaps it is uncertainty, not understanding everything, not being the smartest, the best, or the one with the most direct pipeline to God. I know you were kidding, but it got me thinking! Thanks!