pen sunshine lover Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 A getting off the subject a bit here. We may have been obviously one or the other but we were still asked to choose and practiced our life plan before we came here. I think perhaps the man without ears may be a little bit choice. And if it makes him happy well that's grand. It certainly will have dummed down his hearing. So the news won't hurt worry or make afraid. Shame he won't hear the birds sing.
Navidad Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 Well, you all have gotten me thinking a lot today. I thank you for that. In the course of that my mind went to Luke 24 where the resurrected Lord showed himself to his followers. In verse 39 he showed them his hands and his feet. Why? Because that is where the scars of his suffering in the atonement process. The resurrected Christ still had scars! Many of us suffer in life; will we carry those scars into heaven? I think so. For many folks they are an important part of their identity. If I am perfect in heaven how would I share, learn and grow about my earthly experiences? That is the process of sanctification, gaining greater understanding of the Lord and of ourselves. That is what I think we will do for an eternity. If in heaven, we don't remember our pain or suffering, how can we continue to be more like God, as God or whatever term you choose to use? If the resurrected and glorified Lord proved who he was to his followers by showing them his pre-death mortal scars, I think we will take our own into heaven. I am coming more to the conclusion that the LDS obsession with being perfect is imperfect in and of itself. In the replies to my comment on this thread how many times did you all assure each other that you will be perfect in heaven? That may be a great goal - but I don't think it is a beginning point as we enter there. I think you are saying a deaf person here on earth who learned to communicate using sign language, will not have to in heaven because they will have perfect hearing. You also have challenged me to think about this from the perspective of the the "disabled" person. You are probably right, maybe we should let them speak about what and who they expect to be in heaven and their own sense of identity. For me, I want to go and see for myself the scars in our Lord from his suffering servant experience for me. I think that after 2000 years they will still be there. I thank you all for helping me think about this. I have no need to think of myself as being perfect in this world or the next; I just want to be like Jesus, scars and all.
Calm Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Navidad said: Well, you all have gotten me thinking a lot today. I thank you for that. In the course of that my mind went to Luke 24 where the resurrected Lord showed himself to his followers. In verse 39 he showed them his hands and his feet. Why? Because that is where the scars of his suffering in the atonement process. The resurrected Christ still had scars! Many of us suffer in life; will we carry those scars into heaven? I think so. For many folks they are an important part of their identity. If I am perfect in heaven how would I share, learn and grow about my earthly experiences? That is the process of sanctification, gaining greater understanding of the Lord and of ourselves. That is what I think we will do for an eternity. If in heaven, we don't remember our pain or suffering, how can we continue to be more like God, as God or whatever term you choose to use? If the resurrected and glorified Lord proved who he was to his followers by showing them his pre-death mortal scars, I think we will take our own into heaven. I am coming more to the conclusion that the LDS obsession with being perfect is imperfect in and of itself. In the replies to my comment on this thread how many times did you all assure each other that you will be perfect in heaven? That may be a great goal - but I don't think it is a beginning point as we enter there. I think you are saying a deaf person here on earth who learned to communicate using sign language, will not have to in heaven because they will have perfect hearing. You also have challenged me to think about this from the perspective of the the "disabled" person. You are probably right, maybe we should let them speak about what and who they expect to be in heaven and their own sense of identity. For me, I want to go and see for myself the scars in our Lord from his suffering servant experience for me. I think that after 2000 years they will still be there. I thank you all for helping me think about this. I have no need to think of myself as being perfect in this world or the next; I just want to be like Jesus, scars and all. Why did Jesus heal the blind man then? 4
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 8 hours ago, Navidad said: Ok Pile on! I have never thought of this before. It is a whole new subject for me. Entirely new. As someone who spent most all my life defending and supporting those with disabilities I find the idea that God will fix them for eternity a new belief. And I thought Mennonites were the best at laying guilt on people! I hope some of the lack of tolerance among Mormons is fixed in heaven as well. Lack of toleration? Sir, failure to agree with what one considers false is not intolerance. It is mere disagreement. If I were being intolerant, I would demand you be silenced, and forbidden to utter what I consider wrong. I am merely disagreeing with you. If you cannot bear it, I sympathize with you, but I cannot apologize. And assuming you are respectful in your disagreement, I would even defend your right to disagree with me! But I would still disagree with you if I considered what you said was false. But I'll try to be as respectful as I can while doing so. I am also not laying guilt on you. I'm not blaming you; I am merely disagreeing with you. You say that this is a new subject for you, and in a way that suggests that you are actually considering whether you might change your mind, or take on a new paradigm. If so, I guess I won't dump the rest of what I had written -- since I don't want to pile on too earnestly. Let me know if you want the rest of it! 🙂 2
Gray Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 Oh goodie, more right wing identity politics in general conference.
bluebell Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 30 minutes ago, Gray said: Oh goodie, more right wing identity politics in general conference. How can we tell the difference between "right wing identity politics' and the will and doctrine of God? 2
Gray Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: How can we tell the difference between "right wing identity politics' and the will and doctrine of God? The will and doctrine of God will take on a different tone and tenor from right wing identity politics. Unless God is secretly Rush Limbaugh? There's really nothing in the revelations that really speaks to transgender people directly. So when I hear right wing identity politics in church meetings I can't help but wonder, do right wing identity politics come from right wing identity politics?
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: What?? I don't see Down's Syndrome or being gay to be anywhere near a medical condition, such as having only one arm or being blind. Well, I had hoped... So what is a medical condition then? And what does "medical condition" have to do with anything? Nevermind.
CMZ Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 On 10/6/2018 at 12:38 PM, SouthernMo said: While it only affects 1/20,000, I wonder what guidance church leaders would give on hermaphroditism? If the global prevalence holds true in the church, there are about 750 members who deal with this medical issue. Will parents of hermaphrodites go to hell because they select one gender for their child to live with? Will that child go to hell because she was supposed to be a he? President Oaks talked about how we lived as male and female spirits before coming here to this earth. If someone is a hermaphrodite in mortality they still have either a male spirit or a female spirit. In such cases where a newborn infant's physical gender is ambiguous doctors used to tell parents to select a gender and then raise the child as though they were that gender. This may have been well-meaning but it came to be found out that what the parents picked maybe didn't always match how their child felt. I believe the recommendation now is for such parents to tentatively select a gender to raise their child as but then to also be open to input from that child when they are able to give their own input. 3
bluebell Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, Gray said: The will and doctrine of God will take on a different tone and tenor from right wing identity politics. Unless God is secretly Rush Limbaugh? There's really nothing in the revelations that really speaks to transgender people directly. So when I hear right wing identity politics in church meetings I can't help but wonder, do right wing identity politics come from right wing identity politics? So, the will and doctrine of God will always agree with liberal thought and belief? 1
CMZ Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 23 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: I often use extreme positions to attack an argument but even the extreme argument has to reflect the issue at hand. Hermaphrodites and transgenders are not the same. One is a developmental defect the other is an identity issue. Transgender people typically have bodies that have developed normally. They may have issues in the brain going on but those issues have nothing to do with gender itself. This is where everyone is going to have to learn how to be careful because "transgender" people may have an underlying hermaphroditic condition that is not readily obvious to themselves or others. 3
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 6 hours ago, pen sunshine lover said: The answer to this question is quite simple we chose our own gender in the pre-exisence maybe some people just could not choose or changed their mind. Interesting idea. I'll grant you that I've never heard anything in LDS theology that explained the origin of sex selection in the pre-existence. So maybe you're right! But why would it be that something like one-half of us chose male and the other half female? Because with a slight preponderance of male births to female, it is pretty much 50/50. Why not 2/3 male and 1/3 female? Or the other way 'round?
CMZ Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 23 hours ago, Anon the Great said: Can you answer the questions to be more specific in your assumptions. What is gender? Is it a feeling and idea? Or is determined by the body we are placed in? When was the gender decision made? How was it made? Who made it? Can we all conclude on the most reasonable answer based on the evidence we see? There are hints regarding this in the temple.
CMZ Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 22 hours ago, Navidad said: So can I assume that Saints teach that Down's Syndrome is a defect from which my niece will be "free from" in heaven? I hope not, she is really quite sweet just as she is. She can become free of it and still be sweet. Our Heavenly Parents aim for her to achieve her full potential. They love her as she is but that doesn't mean they want her to stay as she is.
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 5 hours ago, pen sunshine lover said: I have just read the comments of people with children with learning difficulties. I have 2 Autistic grandchildren lost children to neonatal death. So this topic has been researched. LDS church believes that all children and people who do not reach the age of 8 years in the mental capacity sense are choice spirits will automatically be accepted into the celestial world. The reason for this disability is because they faught so valiantly in the pre earth life that they are protected in the world from the adversary, If you get to the celestial world they will be there waiting for you. And we all receive a perfect body after resurrection. They are simply sweet and good people anyway, this will not change. I was about to dispute some of this, but then I realized that even if some of what you wrote here isn't actually a teaching of the church (as far as I have heard), I'm pretty sure it also isn't denied. As it happens, the part I bolded above is something I believe, but I believe it without having been taught it directly. Is this something you have read in Church-approved literature, or is this something you believe because you feel it makes sense? Because that's my own only source!
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 3 hours ago, pen sunshine lover said: A getting off the subject a bit here. We may have been obviously one or the other but we were still asked to choose and practiced our life plan before we came here. I think perhaps the man without ears may be a little bit choice. And if it makes him happy well that's grand. It certainly will have dummed down his hearing. So the news won't hurt worry or make afraid. Shame he won't hear the birds sing. Well, he can still hear. The ear flaps are only there to amplify and help determine the direction sounds are coming from. Read about the external ears here: Auricle (anatomy)
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 13 minutes ago, bluebell said: So, the will and doctrine of God will always agree with liberal thought and belief? That's the impression I get from some of the posters here, for sure.
CMZ Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 17 hours ago, jcake said: There is so much we don't know. We can have compassion for hermaphrodites, because they have visible evidence of a problem that could lead to gender identification issues. What about the person whose differences are in their hormonal make-up or who have differences in the make-up of their brain, which cannot be readily seen but affect their gender identity as significantly as having the outward physical structures of both men and women? I think we know so little that we have to be careful and compassionate in dealing with gender issues. I believe that the spirit may be a specific gender, still, could the irregularities of nature that occur in mortality cause confusion or an appearance of one gender when the spirit is another? These are possibilities that need to be considered at least. Doing so does not undo the concept that gender is eternal; it merely acknowledges the oft-acknowledged fact that mortality can present complex and mystifying situations. 1
Jeanne Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, CMZ said: She can become free of it and still be sweet. Our Heavenly Parents aim for her to achieve her full potential. They love her as she is but that doesn't mean they want her to stay as she is. Is this true for all? Or just those who are baptized with covenants? I do have to say that in this mortal sphere, no one should ever say....you need to be fixed or that you will be fixed. Ever! Edited October 7, 2018 by Jeanne 2
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) Oh nevermind. Edited October 8, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Is this true for all? Or just those who are baptized with covenants? I do have to say that in this mortal sphere, no one should ever say....you need to be fixed or that you will be fixed. True for all of course. I am so sorry you see the church as you do, you must have had a terrible time. https://www.lds.org/media-library/video/2012-08-2410-proper-and-perfect-frame?lang=eng Edited October 8, 2018 by mfbukowski
CMZ Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 1 minute ago, Jeanne said: Is this true for all? Or just those who are baptized with covenants? I do have to say that in this mortal sphere, no one should ever say....you need to be fixed or that you will be fixed. This is getting into a thorny issue because I can't comment on every situation and the feelings of those more closely involved with them. I will say, generally, that it is wonderful to love our loved ones even when they might have different conditions but that our love for them is not lessened when we look forward to a time when they are not held back by those certain conditions. My wife loves me but I know she's looking forward to when my probable touch of Autism Spectrum Disorder (backed by brain scans) is no longer an issue. I'm telling myself that getting that condition cleared away is not going to make me less lovable. It already causes problems now and can shut down my brain processing and physical functioning, sometimes with warning and sometimes not. It could be a little disappointing if I still had to experience that in the resurrection. I'm not going to pit "people who have been baptized with covenants" against those who have not because I think doing so shows a limited understanding of God's expansive love and mercy. Rather, it'll help to see exaltation as the ultimate goal for each of God's children, however long it takes for each individual to get there. Even if someone is not resurrected to a celestial glory they still receive a body free from blemish even if it's not at the same degree of glory as a celestial person. But we're all in this together and striving to help one another achieve the ultimate goal. And that includes doing our best to understand those who currently are going through their own trials of faith. 2
SouthernMo Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 30 minutes ago, CMZ said: President Oaks talked about how we lived as male and female spirits before coming here to this earth. If someone is a hermaphrodite in mortality they still have either a male spirit or a female spirit. In such cases where a newborn infant's physical gender is ambiguous doctors used to tell parents to select a gender and then raise the child as though they were that gender. This may have been well-meaning but it came to be found out that what the parents picked maybe didn't always match how their child felt. I believe the recommendation now is for such parents to tentatively select a gender to raise their child as but then to also be open to input from that child when they are able to give their own input. Interesting thought. So in an LDS setting if a born hermaphrodite is raised as a boy, but in adulthood determines that he feels more female, would LDS leaders consent to this individual’s determination to make any dress, pronoun, or surgical changes she determines she needs?
mfbukowski Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 36 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Well, I had hoped... So what is a medical condition then? And what does "medical condition" have to do with anything? Nevermind. Stop trying to confuse people by being rational, please. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 8, 2018 Posted October 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: Why did Jesus heal the blind man then? Or anyone for that matter....
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