Elder Oaks

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, you all have gotten me thinking a lot today. I thank you for that. In the course of that my mind went to Luke 24 where the resurrected Lord showed himself to his followers. In verse 39 he showed them his hands and his feet. Why? Because that is where the scars of his suffering in the atonement process. The resurrected Christ still had scars! Many of us suffer in life; will we carry those scars into heaven? I think so. For many folks they are an important part of their identity. If I am perfect in heaven how would I share, learn and grow about my earthly experiences? That is the process of sanctification, gaining greater understanding of the Lord and of ourselves. That is what I think we will do for an eternity. If in heaven, we don't remember our pain or suffering, how can we continue to be more like God, as God or whatever term you choose to use? If the resurrected and glorified Lord proved who he was to his followers by showing them his pre-death mortal scars, I think we will take our own into heaven. I am coming more to the conclusion that the LDS obsession with being perfect is imperfect in and of itself. In the replies to my comment on this thread how many times did you all assure each other that you will be perfect in heaven? That may be a great goal - but I don't think it is a beginning point as we enter there. I think you are saying a deaf person here on earth who learned to communicate using sign language, will not have to in heaven because they will have perfect hearing. You also have challenged me to think about this from the perspective of the the "disabled" person. You are probably right, maybe we should let them speak about what and who they expect to be in heaven and their own sense of identity. For me, I want to go and see for myself the scars in our Lord from his suffering servant experience for me. I think that after 2000 years they will still be there. I thank you all for helping me think about this. I have no need to think of myself as being perfect in this world or the next; I just want to be like Jesus, scars and all.

I tend to think that Christ's wounds are there for a special purpose, to remind us of his suffering and his infinite atonement.  In other words, they are symbols.  Does a person need to keep the symbols of his appendectomy?  Or his gastric bypass?  Or, does a man who was awarded the Medal of Honor for using his body to save the lives of his buddies from the hand grenade need to keep the gaping wound caused by the grenade?  I think not, and I think that Christ is terribly special in that regard.  I would be very hesitant to dilute the importance of his infinite and eternal sacrifice by resurrecting the rest of us with all our own piffling scars and imperfections.

As for perfection, may I try to defuse your disgust for perfection?

• It is recorded that Jesus Christ admonished his followers: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48) - in the face of this direct commandment, should we reject perfection?  Not that we can become perfect on our own merits, but Christ will make us perfect.  If we let him.
• "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40) - this is a plain insinuation that Christ's followers will be be made perfect, even while being subordinate to Christ.

I think I see your problem with perfection, however.  You are probably thinking of those people who are puffed up in their pride at thinking themselves superior because of their imagined perfection as compared with those in the great unwashed masses.  I agree that their supposed "perfection" is actually deep imperfection.  And deep spiritual blindness as well as self-deception.

But to impute negativity to actual perfection is illogical.  Actual perfection requires perfect humility and perfect love.  Those who do not possess these are not perfect.

And anyway, none of us will be perfect until we are perfected in Christ through the atonement and the resurrection.  There's nothing wrong with trying to become the best we can be, however.  In fact, I think that those who sit around like lumps while expecting that Christ will make us perfect in our lumpiness are expecting too much.  After all, the man who buried his talent was ultimately rejected.

[CMZ]

2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Interesting thought. So in an LDS setting if a born hermaphrodite is raised as a boy, but in adulthood determines that he feels more female, would LDS leaders consent to this individual’s determination to make any dress, pronoun, or surgical changes she determines she needs?

These things are handled on an individual basis but I believe will be helped when people approach them from a compassionate and informed perspective, rather than forcing one's personal dogma onto another person. I am aware of little bits of hearsay out there that there have been cases where things have been handled in the way you suggest.

There are scientists who study gender from a physical perspective and the more they learn the more they find out how complex and ambiguous it is; I'm not one of them but have seen just enough to know that there's no one physical characteristic that is a 100% reliable indicator of a person's gender (although I'm not saying there's no reliability whatsoever). Only from the clearer perspective of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ do we have the understanding that we existed as either a female spirit or a male spirit before birth and that that component is the reliable indicator of one's gender. This also implies that I am not the arbiter of what eternal gender someone else may or may not be.

[strappinglad]

15 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I do have to say that in this mortal sphere, no one should ever say....you need to be fixed or that you will be fixed.   Ever! 

Sorry, but we go to doctors/hospitals in order to be " fixed " . The human body gets broken, physically, emotionally, spiritually. We don't WANT to be broken so we try to ' fix' it. There are biological errors that come before or at birth and others that show up sometime during mortality. Surgeries can be done in the womb to 'fix' mistakes of nature. Should we just tell everyone they will just have to live with the problem, for EVER ?

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Or anyone for that matter....

 

I figure easiest to keep it to one example of a quality that some see as part of their identity in my experience, but definitely.

[Stargazer]

25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh nevermind.

Sometimes that I what I end up with, too.

[mfbukowski]

54 minutes ago, Gray said:

The will and doctrine of God will take on a different tone and tenor from right wing identity politics. Unless God is secretly Rush Limbaugh?

There's really nothing in the revelations that really speaks to transgender people directly. So when I hear right wing identity politics in church meetings I can't help but wonder, do right wing identity politics come from right wing identity politics?

How odd that "liberals" then are so good at creating group identities they can call divisive names.

Liberals can dream up identities out of thin air just so they can answer ambiguous questions by name calling. 

We used to call that "creating a straw man" but of course that was in the old days when people were civil and did not call people names.

But after all Republicans are "deplorables" anyway so who cares?

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, CMZ said:

These things are handled on an individual basis but I believe will be helped when people approach them from a compassionate and informed perspective, rather than forcing one's personal dogma onto another person. I am aware of little bits of hearsay out there that there have been cases where things have been handled in the way you suggest.

There are scientists who study gender from a physical perspective and the more they learn the more they find out how complex and ambiguous it is; I'm not one of them but have seen just enough to know that there's no one physical characteristic that is a 100% reliable indicator of a person's gender (although I'm not saying there's no reliability whatsoever). Only from the clearer perspective of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ do we have the understanding that we existed as either a female spirit or a male spirit before birth and that that component is the reliable indicator of one's gender. This also implies that I am not the arbiter of what eternal gender someone else may or may not be.

Wait.... I thought it was you!  Darn!

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Sorry, but we go to doctors/hospitals in order to be " fixed " . The human body gets broken, physically, emotionally, spiritually. We don't WANT to be broken so we try to ' fix' it. There are biological errors that come before or at birth and others that show up sometime during mortality. Surgeries can be done in the womb to 'fix' mistakes of nature. Should we just tell everyone they will just have to live with the problem, for EVER ?

Wait a minute here.  You're going to have to explain the difference between fixing what's broke and someone deciding he or she is actually she or he and wants that fixed.

[Stargazer]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How odd that "liberals" then are so good at creating group identities they can call divisive names.

Liberals can dream up identities out of thin air just so they can answer ambiguous questions by name calling. 

We used to call that "creating a straw man" but of course that was in the old days when people were civil and did not call people names.

But after all Republicans are "deplorables" anyway so who cares?

 

When the hell was that?  Sorry, I don't remember that time...

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, you all have gotten me thinking a lot today. I thank you for that. In the course of that my mind went to Luke 24 where the resurrected Lord showed himself to his followers. In verse 39 he showed them his hands and his feet. Why? Because that is where the scars of his suffering in the atonement process. The resurrected Christ still had scars! Many of us suffer in life; will we carry those scars into heaven? I think so. For many folks they are an important part of their identity. If I am perfect in heaven how would I share, learn and grow about my earthly experiences? That is the process of sanctification, gaining greater understanding of the Lord and of ourselves. That is what I think we will do for an eternity. If in heaven, we don't remember our pain or suffering, how can we continue to be more like God, as God or whatever term you choose to use? If the resurrected and glorified Lord proved who he was to his followers by showing them his pre-death mortal scars, I think we will take our own into heaven. I am coming more to the conclusion that the LDS obsession with being perfect is imperfect in and of itself. In the replies to my comment on this thread how many times did you all assure each other that you will be perfect in heaven? That may be a great goal - but I don't think it is a beginning point as we enter there. I think you are saying a deaf person here on earth who learned to communicate using sign language, will not have to in heaven because they will have perfect hearing. You also have challenged me to think about this from the perspective of the the "disabled" person. You are probably right, maybe we should let them speak about what and who they expect to be in heaven and their own sense of identity. For me, I want to go and see for myself the scars in our Lord from his suffering servant experience for me. I think that after 2000 years they will still be there. I thank you all for helping me think about this. I have no need to think of myself as being perfect in this world or the next; I just want to be like Jesus, scars and all.

Gosh I suggest you do a little more studying of LDS doctrine before you go off half-cocked making up stuff about what you do not understand.

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-the-gospel-according-to-st-john/chapter-28-john-20-21?lang=eng

Quote

John chapters 20 and 21 record John’s account of the Savior’s post-Resurrection ministry. John recorded the discovery of the empty tomb and the Savior’s appearance to Mary Magdalene and later that day to ten of the Apostles. Upon hearing of the resurrected Savior, Thomas, who had been absent, said, “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, … I will not believe” (John 20:25). Eight days later Thomas received that opportunity, at which time Jesus taught, “Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed” (John 20:29). John recorded the Savior’s appearance to His disciples on the shore of the Sea of Tiberias (Galilee) and His charge to Peter to “feed my sheep” (John 21:15–17). John stated his purpose in recording these appearances: “These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name” (John 20:31).....

Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “Together they view the grave-clothes-linen strips that have not been unwrapped, but through which a resurrected body has passed. And then, upon John … the reality dawns first. It is true! They had not known before; now they do. It is the third day! Christ is risen! ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’ (1 Cor. 15:54.)” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [1965–73], 1:842).

These details about the position of the grave clothes rule out the possibility that Jesus’s body had been taken by grave robbers or Jewish leaders conspiring to prevent claims of a resurrection (see Matthew 28:9–15; John 20:2, 13). Anyone interested in stealing Jesus’s body would have either unwrapped it, leaving the linens behind in a heap, or taken the body while it was still wrapped.

Up to the moment when Peter and John looked into the empty tomb, they had not fully comprehended the scriptural witnesses declaring that the Messiah would rise from the dead as an immortal Being. But in that moment they came to know by the power of revelation and personal experience that Jesus was resurrected.

His wounds are badges of his identity.

Also this, which is more scholarly, look down the page about 3/4.  Too much to copy here

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-14-number-1-2013/crucifixion-reclamation-cross

I am sure that if that is the case for anyone else, they can also retain their wounds as well.  We are not as harsh as somehow you make us and neither is God.

I don't know where you get this stuff.  Plucked from air.  

Edited October 8, 2018 by mfbukowski

[CMZ]

4 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Wait.... I thought it was you!  Darn!

😀

[mfbukowski]

7 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

When the hell was that?  Sorry, I don't remember that time...

Well at least they would say "My good friend the Senator from Georgia.... " before they eviscerated him. 

 

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Gosh I suggest you do a little more studying of LDS doctrine before you go off half-cocked making up stuff about what you do not understand.

It would be nice if some LDS members would do this, too.

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

https://www.lds.org/manual/new-testament-student-manual/introduction-to-the-gospel-according-to-st-john/chapter-28-john-20-21?lang=eng

His wounds are badges of his identity.  <--- Nice turn of phrase, that.  Me likes!

 

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 

I am sure that if that is the case for anyone else, they can also retain their wounds as well. 

I guess this sounds nicely open-minded and all, but I'm wracking my brains trying to figure out who else might need to have badges of their identity.  What I was trying to say in an earlier post is that no-one else needs badges of their identity, because Christ's sacrifice is so supernal that for anyone else to be similarly identified, even for something truly courageous and faithful, it would tend to apparently devalue Christ's incomparable contribution to our salvation.  Not that it could, in actuality, but still...

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We are not as harsh as somehow you make us and neither is God.

Well, maybe not as harsh, but sometimes I feel like being at least a little harsh...  Especially when faced with some of the irredeemably silly ideas that have gone by in this thread.  I shall not be precise as to which ones I mean.  One should be able to figure it out, though.  From context.  

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't know where you get this stuff.  Plucked from air.  

Ooh!  I just saw some floating by!  

[MiserereNobis]

29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How odd that "liberals" then are so good at creating group identities they can call divisive names.

Liberals can dream up identities out of thin air just so they can answer ambiguous questions by name calling. 

We used to call that "creating a straw man" but of course that was in the old days when people were civil and did not call people names.

But after all Republicans are "deplorables" anyway so who cares?

 

Conservatives do it, too. Go check out the comments section on Fox News articles. 

No political party has a monopoly on being an *** 😊

[Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well at least they would say "My good friend the Senator from Georgia.... " before they eviscerated him. 

I'll have to remember that one.  It's good to have these little tidbits in store for instant use.

On the other hand, do I want a reputation as a complete jerk?  I may be developing one, I fear.

Do you remember Al Jaffee's "Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions"?  (Here's a link to a few genuine Jaffee versions, and some user-created ones.  If you want some laughs)

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Conservatives do it, too. Go check out the comments section on Fox News articles. 

No political party has a monopoly on being an *** 😊

That much is certain.

I cringe when I see people I generally agree with doing it.  I wish they would stop.

Oooh.  I see the pun at last!  Nice!

[Calm]

My husband's grandmother was visited shortly before she died by her long dead husband (over 50 years iirc).  He was clothed in the same clothes she remembered him most frequently wearing.  Since we believe he visited her in order to calm her fears he would not recognize her when she died (which was expected soon and in fact happened a day or two later peacefully), it makes sense that at that time he was easily recognizable to her (I am assuming here this was not just a wish fulfillment dream, but a true vision; this is what I believe, but understand I may be wrong).

However, once she had moved beyond death and hopefully been blessed to become one with God along with her husband, surely there will be no need to keep the appearance of clothing styles of our mortal life because we will be able to know each other in vastly more accurate ways than by mortal sight or touch.

If Christ kept the wounds for identification purpose as well as to demonstrate the depth of his sacrifice for us, when we have moved to the point of actually accepting the fullness of that sacrifice, will there be any actual need for Christ to continue to be marked by his wounds?  Doesn't seem like it to me.

When we see things "darkly" we may need to have 'bright lights and sounds' to recognize what God wants us to recognize, but no reason why that needs to continue imo.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Conservatives do it, too. Go check out the comments section on Fox News articles. 

No political party has a monopoly on being an *** 😊

Well I was just pointing that out.... 

I usually mean exactly what I say, not what others think I said. 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

My husband's grandmother was visited shortly before she died by her long dead husband (over 50 years iirc).  He was clothed in the same clothes she remember him wearing.  Since we believe he visited her in order to calm her fears he would not recognize her when she died (which was expected soon and in fact happened a day or two later peacefully), it makes sense that at that time he was easily recognizable to her (I am assuming here this was not just a wish fulfillment dream, but a true vision; this is what I believe, but understand I may be wrong).

However, once she had moved beyond death and hopefully bern blessed to become one with God along with her husband, surely there will be no need to keep the appearance of clothing styles of our mortal life because we will be able to know each other in vastly more accurate ways than by mortal sight or touch.

If Christ kept the wounds for identification purpose as well as to demonstrate the depth of his sacrifice for us, when we have moved to the point of actually accepting the fullness of that sacrifice, will there be any actual need for Christ to continue to be marked by his wounds?  Doesn't seem like it to me.

Take it up with these authors.  I believe it is true.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-14-number-1-2013/crucifixion-reclamation-cross

Think of the temple and other evidence we have that the wounds are there and symbolic and IMPORTANT.  Think of the temple in the context of "Doubting Thomas".  Aren't we all doubting Thomases?

Quote

 

4. The signs of the Crucifixion were so important for Christ that he kept them even after he received a glorified, resurrected body. When Jesus first came to the temple in Bountiful, the people were not initially sure who appeared to them. Even though after the third time they finally understood the words of the Father, “Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him,” when they saw Jesus descending out of heaven and standing in the midst of them, “they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them” (3 Nephi 11:7–8). So Jesus declared to them:

Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning. . . .

Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. (vv. 10–11, 14)

Here stood the Son of God in a glorified, resurrected body, a body that was perfect in every way, except for the fact that, as prophesied by Zechariah (see Zechariah 13:6), he chose to retain the marks of his Crucifixion. For the people of 3 Nephi, this retention was one of the tangible proofs that this being was not an angel, but was in fact the Savior of the world. And after they each went forth one by one and “thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet . . . they did cry out with one accord, saying: Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him” (3 Nephi 11:15–17).

I wonder how many of those present at that supernal time might have remembered what Jehovah had said to the prophet Isaiah, and what had been recorded in the Nephite records: “Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands” (Isaiah 49:15–16; 1 Nephi 21:16). In this instance, the signs of the Crucifixion did not cause mourning but were a reason to rejoice!

Finally, Elder Holland gives us another reason to rejoice in the signs of the Crucifixion that Christ retained in his resurrected body:

When we stagger or stumble, He is there to steady and strengthen us. In the end He is there to save us, and for all this He gave His life. However dim our days may seem, they have been a lot darker for the Savior of the world. As a reminder of those days, Jesus has chosen, even in a resurrected, otherwise perfected body, to retain for the benefit of His disciples the wounds in His hands and in His feet and in His side—signs, if you will, that painful things happen even to the pure and the perfect; signs, if you will, that pain in this world is not evidence that God doesn’t love you; signs, if you will, that problems pass and happiness can be ours. . . . It is the wounded Christ who is the Captain of our souls, He who yet bears the scars of our forgiveness, the lesions of His love and humility, the torn flesh of obedience and sacrifice. These wounds are the principal way we are to recognize Him when He comes. [35]

Conclusion

Most of the Christian world refers to Easter Friday as Good Friday. This may seem odd for a day that commemorates death, even the cruel, torturous death of the Son of God. It is called Good Friday because the word good in English can mean “pious or holy.” In that sense, Good Friday is a most holy day. But in spite of sordid details of the way Jesus was crucified, I hope that during the Easter season we will find reason to rejoice and celebrate his death as well as his Resurrection. Because of his death on the cross we can celebrate the grace of his Atonement; we can rejoice in God’s great love for us that he would give his Only Begotten Son; we can celebrate the opportunity to respond to Jesus’ invitation for all to come, follow him and be his disciples; and in our darkest moments, we can find solace and reason to rejoice in the memory that we are engraven in the palms of his hands! I thank God for all of the Easter season.

 

We are engraven in the palms of his hands!

That was also in a conference talk this weekend.

It's an optional belief obviously- it either resonates with you or not.

[Calm]

But once we move past doubt, once we see as we are seen...no more through the glass darkly, do you think there will be a need?

[mfbukowski]

16 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'll have to remember that one.  It's good to have these little tidbits in store for instant use.

On the other hand, do I want a reputation as a complete jerk?  I may be developing one, I fear.

Do you remember Al Jaffee's "Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions"?  (Here's a link to a few genuine Jaffee versions, and some user-created ones.  If you want some laughs)

Oh I am used to it.  Working on it but still a jerk

I will check out that site !

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Take it up with these authors.  I believe it is true.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/volume-14-number-1-2013/crucifixion-reclamation-cross

Think of the temple and other evidence we have that the wounds are there and symbolic and IMPORTANT.  Think of the temple in the context of "Doubting Thomas".  Aren't we all doubting Thomases?

We are engraven in the palms of his hands!

That was also in a conference talk this weekend.

It's an optional belief obviously- it either resonates with you or not.

I wish I could upvote this 100 times.

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

But once we move past doubt, once we see as we are seen...no more through the glass darkly, do you think there will be a need?

A need?

I did not say it was true for everyone - just that I believed that Jesus still has his stigmata, and will retain it

The other question is whether God would permit it if someone with Downs wants to retain their appearance- obviously their intelligence will be different if exaltation is postulated.

I think exaltation as a state demands "perfection" since that is what defines it- but what perfection IS for an individual might be another story- I have no idea.

I have no reason to believe that God would recognize such a "need" or not so why make anything a hard and fast response?

Nobody knows and for me it is a paradigm that does not require such a logical postulation either way.  In other words take your pick

At least that is the way my brain works. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

My personal belief is control over the elements includes our bodies completely and not just impulse control/self discipline, so I don't see us as one 'set in stone' form throughout life, but that may be a reflection of my desire for variety in my surroundings (including the surrounding of my spirit, my body) in this life.  I really like the idea of being able to change hair color and length, eye color and shape, skin tone, height and overall shape at will.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

I do have to say that in this mortal sphere, no one should ever say....you need to be fixed or that you will be fixed.   Ever! 

Jesus’s offer to fix us is the very core of the Christian message. I hope you’ll forgive Him for quite boldly ignoring your rule.