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Sam Young is Excommunicated

lostindc

By lostindc
in General Discussions

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Exiled Mentor

Exiled

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

not silenced but removed from the records, they can still attend Church if they choose to do so. I bet if someone had a sign up that read , "Sam is a Sham" and followed Sam Young everywhere while he was in SLC, vocally opposing him while he spoke on various media platforms and followed him back to Houston, his followers would have something to say about that person

He was asked to change his position or be removed from the records, or in other words asked to be silent or the church would remove him, which it did. Why don't you just own that?

What if I put it this way: he was lovingly and gently asked to support the brethren in their wise decision to continue interviewing the youth about subjects the brethren view as wise and true, and when he didn't, he was lovingly removed from the records?

Would this satisfy you?

I was probably too blunt in saying that authority usually says it is their way or the highway?

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Jeanne Grand Master

Jeanne

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Is asking whether we keep the law of chastity a sexual question?

This question alone depends on maturity.  Asking an 11 or 12 year old is questionable...IMO.  The thing is ....it is none of your business.  All other requirements may be adhered to...but questions like this belong to parents/children at home..and between God and an individual.

I picture a young girl who has heard about chastity...but not fully understanding it.  Would it be okay for the  Bishop to explain that???  My daughter came home from her primary interview into MIA asking what masturbation was.

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Exiled Mentor

Exiled

Posted
Posted
20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This isn't true (i'm not sure if you chose to misrepresent church leaders or if it's accidental, but either way).

The Brethren take the position that they are called of God and that Christ has directed them to remove anyone from His flock that is guilty of serious sin (such as apostasy) if they refuse to repent.  People can agree with that or disagree with it, but they should have the integrity to describe the Brethren's position accurately, if they are going to describe it at all.

Aren't we dependent on the brethren for this claim? If one gets an answer that says the brethren do not have the authority you claim they do, the brethren say that answer is automatically wrong. So, this claim is so simply because the brethren say so, according to them.

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Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Exiled said:

He was asked to change his position or be removed from the records, or in other words asked to be silent or the church would remove him, which it did. Why don't you just own that?

What if I put it this way: he was lovingly and gently asked to support the brethren in their wise decision to continue interviewing the youth about subjects the brethren view as wise and true, and when he didn't, he was lovingly removed from the records?

Would this satisfy you?

I was probably too blunt in saying that authority usually says it is their way or the highway?

You seem to have this idea that the Church is the mob, people who turn against them end up under a highway in New Jersey-They encourage people to attend Church, even though their records are removed and they can't speak, unless it's to talk about something else other than their pet topic. Unless they physically cut off his tongue then he can't be silenced outside the Church and as others have said he probably won't be silenced. As we learn in Gladiator "The crowd is fickle, brother, he'll be forgotten in a month" the media spotlight will shift away, it is just the way it is with people in the news

Edited by Duncan
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Scott Lloyd Grand Master

Scott Lloyd

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Aren't we dependent on the brethren for this claim? If one gets an answer that says the brethren do not have the authority you claim they do, the brethren say that answer is automatically wrong. So, this claim is so simply because the brethren say so, according to them.

It’s a matter of whom you trust. That is so in all aspects of life. 

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CMZ Mentor

CMZ

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, california boy said:

It's "the thinking has been done" nuclear option that the church always has when someone disagrees publically with church leaders.

"publicly"

The "the thinking has been done" thing isn't a thing. It's not taught, believed, or enforced. It's just not a thing. Elder Christofferson even said people can be in good standing in the Church and support same-sex marriage (no, I don't know his exact wording right at this moment). Actually, sad to say that I just remembered that a few members who don't know any better do believe the thinking has been done for you thing. But they shouldn't.

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Exiled Mentor

Exiled

Posted
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, Duncan said:

You seem to have this idea that the Church is the mob, people who turn against them end up under a highway in New Jersey-They encourage people to attend Church, even though their records are removed and they can't speak, unless it's to talk about something else other than their pet topic. Unless they physically cut off his tongue then he can't be silenced outside the Church and as others have said he probably won't be silenced. As we learn in Gladiator "The crowd is fickle, brother, he'll be forgotten in a month" the media spotlight will shift away, it is just the way it is with people in the news

No, I don't think they are a mob. However, I think they want order in their house where they are the masters. I understand this and if one goes to their church, one should expect to follow their rules. Mr. Young disagreed and did so publicly. So, he was politely asked to either tow the line or go elsewhere. It's too bad his is the better position. Even so, its agree or records will be removed. If he persists to speak ill against the annointed in church, he will be asked to leave like Ms. Denson was. I don't agree with the decision to ex Mr. Young, but it is theirs to make.

Edited by Exiled
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CMZ Mentor

CMZ

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Exiled said:

So what do the extremely well-informed say?

They would say something similar to numerous things Joseph Smith said, such as:

 

Quote

 

“We deem it a just principle, and it is one the force of which we believe ought to be duly considered by every individual, that all men are created equal, and that all have the privilege of thinking for themselves upon all matters relative to conscience. Consequently, then, we are not disposed, had we the power, to deprive any one of exercising that free independence of mind which heaven has so graciously bestowed upon the human family as one of its choicest gifts.”

********************************************

“I have the most liberal sentiments, and feelings of charity towards all sects, parties, and denominations; and the rights and liberties of conscience, I hold most sacred and dear, and despise no man for differing with me in matters of opinion.”

 

More information about the purposes for excommunication can be found here:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1990/09/a-chance-to-start-over-church-disciplinary-councils-and-the-restoration-of-blessings?lang=eng

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bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted
34 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Aren't we dependent on the brethren for this claim? If one gets an answer that says the brethren do not have the authority you claim they do, the brethren say that answer is automatically wrong. So, this claim is so simply because the brethren say so, according to them.

No, we aren’t dependent on them for that claim.  It’s in our scriptures, which have existed long before these men.

We can agree or disagree with them—we can believe they are right or wrong—but we can’t purposely misrepresent them or their positions (at least not without calling our own integrity into question).  

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bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Exiled said:

No, I don't think they are a mob. However, I think they want order in their house where they are the masters. I understand this and if one goes to their church, one should expect to follow their rules. Mr. Young disagreed and did so publicly. So, he was politely asked to either tow the line or go elsewhere. It's too bad his is the better position. Even so, its agree or records will be removed. If he persists to speak ill against the annointed in church, he will be asked to leave like Ms. Denson was. I don't agree with the decision to ex Mr. Young, but it is theirs to make.

Was Ms. Denson asked to leave?  Do you have a reference for that?

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Storm Rider Grand Master

Storm Rider

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, california boy said:

Does anyone think we have heard the last of Sam Young?  And who do you think will be there beating the drum when the next bishop/stake president is accused of sexual misconduct with a minor?  Yeah, the guy that was excommunicated from the church for speaking out against abuse.  

I don't agree with Sam Young's tactics, nor some of his statements.  But unlike some of the excommunications du jour, that seems to happen pretty regularly with the church, his cause may be something to consider more closely.  I am sure he will point out during the next abuse case that the church tried to silence him by excommunicating him, and now another child has been harmed. Perhaps the church just ended the flying under the radar on these issues.

Just a pragmatic view of how this will all play out.  Not meant to be a comment on the right or wrong of excommunicating Sam Young.

I have never heard anyone with an ounce of understanding that the Church or its leaders perceive that they have "silenced" an individual by excommunicating them. Excommunication does many things, but it never silences anyone. It removes the individual from the rolls of the Church; they no longer may claim membership in the Church of Jesus Christ.  It is a "get out of Church free" card and the individual is left to do whatever they want, whenever they want, and however they want.  

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Hamba Tuhan Grand Master

Hamba Tuhan

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

I have never heard anyone with an ounce of understanding that the Church or its leaders perceive that they have "silenced" an individual by excommunicating them.

Yep, the whole 'excommunication is an attempt to silence' thing is risible. Whenever I see a critic use it, I know immediately s/he isn't serious.

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