Sam Young is Excommunicated

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Who is Sam Young and why should we care?

It’s made national news.  Maybe read at these links, if you really aren’t sure who he is or what his cause is:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/16/mormon-fighting-to-end-youth-interviews-ousted-from-faith.html

https://m.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Sugar-Land-bishop-excommunicated-for-speaking-out-13233642.php

The video of today already has over 23,000 views and counting.  I think it’s touching and sad, but not unexpected.

Edited September 16, 2018 by JulieM

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

BlueDreams, I wouldn't want to subject my son to one and one interviews with a male leader who is unvetted and untrained. Particularly at a young age. At 18...it's his choice.

Agree, but some older adults have felt the brunt of confessing as well. But I do see that for others it's a way to get a feeling of guilt off their chests. Every situation is unique I guess.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I think everybody is too busy jumping up and down for joy.

Who would rejoice at this? Seriously. 

[smac97]

3 hours ago, lostindc said:

Sam Young is excommunicated.  Any thoughts from this board?

Saddened, but not surprised.

I hope he has a change of heart.  I will welcome him in full fellowship if and when he returns.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I think everybody is too busy jumping up and down for joy.

I can't think of anyone who is happy at an excommunication.

Thanks,

-Smac

[CMZ]

1 hour ago, Abulafia said:

Okay, let me explain further. I do not believe that any priest or bishop is in a position to judge the worthiness of my child. Private confession to a male authority figure is a later Catholic practice that had no place in the communities that tried to follow Jesus's teachings, and had no place in Judaism. You confessed to the person you hurt and tried to put it right with them. Criminal matters were tried in the courts.

The Church is supposed to support families. If all families were strong in the gospel then the gospel program could be administered through families without the need for the scaffolding of the Church. Unless and until such a scenario could always be present then the scaffolding of the Church is needed but we need to always recognize it for the scaffolding that it is. This issue goes beyond just youth interviews (it also makes me think of when people cry out, "I don't need a priest to get between me and God!!"). The intent of the interview is not to circumvent the place of the family, but sometimes people forget that and see the temporal manifestation of the Church as more important than an eternal family. When we see the Church for what it is, no more than it is but also no less than it is, then a lot of these problems, or perceived problems, wither away.

[CMZ]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I can't think of anyone who is happy at an excommunication.

Thanks,

-Smac

If there happens to be anyone jumping up and down for joy then they don't see the situation the way God sees it. But there are always going to be people in the Church with less understanding than they should have, and there are always going to be people with an ax to grind who see the people who have less understanding than they should have as the best possible representation of the entire Church and then they turn those people into their straw man to attack.

[california boy]

Does anyone think we have heard the last of Sam Young?  And who do you think will be there beating the drum when the next bishop/stake president is accused of sexual misconduct with a minor?  Yeah, the guy that was excommunicated from the church for speaking out against abuse.  

I don't agree with Sam Young's tactics, nor some of his statements.  But unlike some of the excommunications du jour, that seems to happen pretty regularly with the church, his cause may be something to consider more closely.  I am sure he will point out during the next abuse case that the church tried to silence him by excommunicating him, and now another child has been harmed. Perhaps the church just ended the flying under the radar on these issues.

Just a pragmatic view of how this will all play out.  Not meant to be a comment on the right or wrong of excommunicating Sam Young.

[lostindc]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

the idea that people can get exed shows there are checks and balances, you have the Sam Youngs of the world constantly pressing one key on the piano, people around him get annoyed. I see church discipline as restoring balance

What was the key that got Sam excommunicated?

[lostindc]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

Does anyone think we have heard the last of Sam Young?  And who do you think will be there beating the drum when the next bishop/stake president is accused of sexual misconduct with a minor?  Yeah, the guy that was excommunicated from the church for speaking out against abuse.  

I don't agree with Sam Young's tactics, nor some of his statements.  But unlike some of the excommunications du jour, that seems to happen pretty regularly with the church, his cause may be something to consider more closely.  I am sure he will point out during the next abuse case that the church tried to silence him by excommunicating him, and now another child has been harmed. Perhaps the church just ended the flying under the radar on these issues.

Just a pragmatic view of how this will all play out.  Not meant to be a comment on the right or wrong of excommunicating Sam Young.

Sam made sure to let the audience know that he is pressing forward with the cause.  He plans to appeal his excommunication.  He also made a few points and encouraged youth and parents of youth, in certain states, to report Bishops that ask questions about sexual topics.  I guess an investigation is required in these states, I don't know the details.  He also asked reporters to probe Mormon politicians that were Bishops to see if they asked sexually based questions in interviews.  Also, he announcing having interviews recorded between youth and Bishops discussing sexually based questions.  Sam has to check each state's laws to see if he can release the interview(s).  I think the Church's hand is forced and the Church will remove these questions in the very near future.

[JAHS]

5 minutes ago, lostindc said:

What was the key that got Sam excommunicated?

"Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders." as stated in the Church Handbook under the subject Apostasy

[lostindc]

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I haven't weighed in on this on this board, I don't think. But I'm not surprised that he was. To be clear, I don't wish any ill-will toward Sam Young and hope he finds his way back to full membership or finds answers and truth/valuable perspectives while excommunicated. He seems like a genuine man (although I haven't looked too far into a lot of his work/perspectives). I also think wanting a safer environment for children isn't inherently wrong of Sam either. 

How he went about it and some of his assumptions are my problem. I think Sam was wrong that the best way was to have policies that meant bishops couldn't talk to youth about sensitive topics around sex. Just as there is the possibility for it to go wrong, I've also seen cases where it's gone very right and the voice of a leader was the first that assuaged the person of shame. Obviously I would want for the latter to be the case more often, but that takes a more nuanced and lengthy process than what Sam proposed. To me his options were replacing one problem with another. I'm not a fan of his solutions. If he was just proposing a solution, though, that's fine. But that's not all he did. 

He then went, found grandiose ways to call attention to his perspective, and actively discouraged others from joining the church because they were "putting kids in danger" by his perspective. That, to me, is where he crossed a line that could lead to excommunication. That children are somehow more in danger at church than when they are with family, acquaintances, school, etc is ridiculous...or at the very least unfounded by empirical data. To promote this as inherent truth and be unwilling to take in other opposing perspectives and respect the stewardship of apostles/other leaders in making overarching policies for the church, to me, is hubris. He placed himself into a position that the church must follow his perspective, beliefs, and vision for the church. And even if I 100% agreed with him....that's a problem.

 

With luv,

BD

How should Sam and others approach Church leadership regarding the removal of questions about masturbation, pornography, sexual acts, etc.?

[lostindc]

3 hours ago, SteveO said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/900030038/heres-why-a-former-mormon-bishop-faces-discipline-from-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints.amp

“During the strike he also characterized the church's position as "insane," called it "the most extreme, unsafe church in America," said "I would not join the church today" and encouraged others not to join.”

I’m sure as brother Sam holds more press conferences, we’ll find out that it really has nothing to do with his concern for the children.

 

 

What do you think is "Brother Sam's" purpose?

[lostindc]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

"Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders." as stated in the Church Handbook under the subject Apostasy

What were the acts Sam did that were in opposition and deemed worthy of excommunication?

[california boy]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

"Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders." as stated in the Church Handbook under the subject Apostasy

It's "the thinking has been done" nuclear option that the church always has when someone disagrees publically with church leaders.

[lostindc]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900032216/sam-young-announces-he-was-excommunicated-by-local-church-leaders.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Was reading the above:

 "The whistleblower has been kicked out and labeled with the brand of apostasy," Young said Sunday. "I'll wear that as a proud label."

I think highlights the fundamental problem here: pride

the gospel of Jesus Christ requires a humble , meek, and lowly heart.

I would also dispute that he is any sort of whistle blower. He isn't exposing anything

I believe Sam and others believe they're exposing many accounts of misconduct during worthiness interviews, and therefore, a change in methods is required.  Sharing these stories feels like whistle blowing actions to me.  I guess we can toy with the definition of whistleblower to fit a person's needs.

Edited September 16, 2018 by lostindc

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, lostindc said:

Sam Young is excommunicated.  Any thoughts from this board?

Not feeling sorry for him at all.  He decided that his views were so important that everyone should accept and comply with his views by demanding change that he got kicked out.  Who is next on deck who think of themselves as so important that the Church should change to conform to what they believe the Church should do?

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, lostindc said:

What were the acts Sam did that were in opposition and deemed worthy of excommunication?

He publically opposed church policy that was written by the church leaders. Just google it in the news. There have been many public displays by him to advance his agenda. 

Edited September 16, 2018 by JAHS

[lostindc]

Just now, JAHS said:

He publically opposed church policy that was written by the church leaders. Just google it in the news. There have been many public displays by him to advance his agenda. 

What policy did Sam oppose and why did he oppose?

[Duncan]

27 minutes ago, lostindc said:

What was the key that got Sam excommunicated?

I think he was exed for apostasy

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, lostindc said:

What policy did Sam oppose and why did he oppose?

The policy of conducting interviews with the youth and asking them if they live the law of chastity. He doesn't like the way some Bishops are conducting the interviews. 

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, california boy said:

Does anyone think we have heard the last of Sam Young?  

Not really.  But media interest in him will likely wane.  

Look at Kate Kelly.  John Dehlin.  Denver Snuffer.  Rock Waterman.  The Calderwoods.  Grant Palmer.  Jeremy Runnells.  We get fits and spurts of news coverage.  But excommunication seems to have a deleterious effect on the ability of these folks to command public attention.  Their 15 minutes of notoriety fades.  Even those attempting to keep up their efforts - Dehlin, Runnells, and now probably Young - don't seem to be able to hold on to media attention.

Ryan McKnight may be an anomaly, as his ongoing thievery may be sufficient to pique news/social media curiosity.  Time will tell.

23 minutes ago, california boy said:

And who do you think will be there beating the drum when the next bishop/stake president is accused of sexual misconduct with a minor?  Yeah, the guy that was excommunicated from the church for speaking out against abuse.

And the drum-beating will get tedious.  The perpetual outrage machine usually runs out of gas sooner rather than later.

Thanks,

-Smac

[carbon dioxide]

Just now, lostindc said:

What policy did Sam oppose and why did he oppose?

Sam's first problem is the sin of pride.  He decided for himself that the current policy is wrong (that part is fine) and then proceeded to demand change so that the Church would be in compliance in how he thinks things should be.  It is the same thing that Kate Kelly had.  She decided that women should have the priesthood and then proceeded to push for change without any regard to others and how they feel toward the issue.  Even though 90% of the women in the church had no desire for the priesthood, she was going to do whatever it took to force it down everyone throat.  These type of people need to go away.  If people want change, then go through the normal process and accept that change, if it does come might take a while.  These people are grandstanding and want change NOW.  Sorry but that his not how things work.

[smac97]

24 minutes ago, lostindc said:

Sam made sure to let the audience know that he is pressing forward with the cause.  He plans to appeal his excommunication.  

Yeah, we've seen this schtick before.  Kate Kelly added a minute or two to her 15 minutes.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

25 minutes ago, lostindc said:

How should Sam and others approach Church leadership regarding the removal of questions about masturbation, pornography, sexual acts, etc.?

"Removal" suggests that these questions are in place somewhere.  In a list of questions.  So where?

Thanks,

-Smac