President Nelson and AoF 10

[cinepro]

With all the recent discussion of the Articles of Faith, this recent comment by President Nelson is interesting:

Quote

“Most important, the Lord knows you,” he said. “Puerto Rico and other islands of the sea are very important to the Lord. These islands are rich with the blood of Israel. You are a vital part of God’s promises. Those promises are to be fulfilled by people from the islands of the sea. Those prophecies pertain to the gathering of Israel.”

That “gathering” is spiritual, he added. People of the world are being gathered “into the fold of Jesus Christ” in each of their respective lands. And in their native lands, they take upon Christ’s name, are baptized and faithfully keep God’s commandments. But even with those blessings, God’s children can expect difficulties. “That is part of life. It’s why we’re here. We are here to have a body and to be tried and tested. Some of those tests are physical; some are spiritual, and your trials here have been both physical and spiritual.”

President Nelson Promises Puerto Rican Saints

(Emphasis Added)

Here's the 10th Article of Faith:

Quote

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

(Emphasis added)

Do we not believe in the literal gathering of Israel anymore?  Or is it something that we are putting off to some future date (linked to Christ's reign)?  Or is it a vestigial belief that could possibly be removed from the Articles of Faith since we don't currently believe it?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, cinepro said:

With all the recent discussion of the Articles of Faith, this recent comment by President Nelson is interesting:

Here's the 10th Article of Faith:

Do we not believe in the literal gathering of Israel anymore?  Or is it something that we are putting off to some future date (linked to Christ's reign)?  Or is it a vestigial belief that could possibly be removed from the Articles of Faith since we don't currently believe it?

Well literal doesn’t always mean literal...

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, cinepro said:

With all the recent discussion of the Articles of Faith, this recent comment by President Nelson is interesting:

Here's the 10th Article of Faith:

Do we not believe in the literal gathering of Israel anymore?  Or is it something that we are putting off to some future date (linked to Christ's reign)?  Or is it a vestigial belief that could possibly be removed from the Articles of Faith since we don't currently believe it?

Can you not entertain the idea of the gathering being literal as well as spiritual?

Ever hear the expression "stakes of Zion"? That conveys the idea that stakes are established around the world as geographical locations to which the covenant people, or Israel, or Zion, may gather physically as well as spiritually.

[Duncan]

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/01/strengthen-thy-stakes?lang=eng

 

here's a great article from Pres. Benson about Stakes, I clipped one of his quotations and it's in my scriptures

[CA Steve]

Maybe we literally no longer mean literal.

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Can you not entertain the idea of the gathering being literal as well as spiritual?

Ever hear the expression "stakes of Zion"? That conveys the idea that stakes are established around the world as geographical locations to which the covenant people, or Israel, or Zion, may gather physically as well as spiritually.

I can define it as both spiritual and physical.  

However President Nelson here implies whether intentionally or not that the gathering of prophecy is only spiritual.

I hope that isn't what he actually meant.

[rongo]

It isn't. Didn't anyone else see the broadcast with him and his wife, and her whole contribution was telling of being in meetings with women in Russia with the Russian women telling of the tribal lineages in their patriarchal blessings? The whole point of that was to illustrate that the gathering of Israel is literally happening in our day, and this segued into President Nelson's message and charge to the youth to be part of this work right now. 

Him saying that the gathering is spiritual does not "throw the literal gathering under the bus." They aren't mutually exclusive, and of the two sides of the same coin, the spiritual is actually more important than the physical. As exciting and interesting as the physical gathering is. 

Of all of our apostles, President Nelson is the most literal and excited by the thought of literalness. I am the same way, and I'm not worried about President Nelson at all in this regard. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

Why are we conflating literal with physical?

[Scott Lloyd]

35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I can define it as both spiritual and physical.  

However President Nelson here implies whether intentionally or not that the gathering of prophecy is only spiritual.

 

I disagree he implies that the gathering is only spiritual. Nothing in his quoted words compels that conclusion.

I will say, though, that an individual must first gather spiritually to Zion before he can gather physically thereto.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I disagree he implies that the gathering is only spiritual. Nothing in his quoted words compels that conclusion.

I will say, though, that an individual must first gather spiritually to Zion before he can gather physically thereto.

 

Then let me rephrase- the quote as provided implies that.

"Those promises are to be fulfilled by people from the islands of the sea. Those prophecies pertain to the gathering of Israel.”

That “gathering” is spiritual, he added."

Seems pretty implied to me, intended or not.

[Scott Lloyd]

59 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Maybe we literally no longer mean literal.

I don't think so.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Why are we conflating literal with physical?

That's a good point. Please enlarge upon it. What is the distinction?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Then let me rephrase- the quote as provided implies that.

"Those promises are to be fulfilled by people from the islands of the sea. Those prophecies pertain to the gathering of Israel.”

That “gathering” is spiritual, he added."

Seems pretty implied to me, intended or not.

For that to be true, there would have to be something here that rules out a literal gathering. What is it?

 

[Scott Lloyd]

Bear in mind that this quotation is taken from a newspaper story, with some of the quotation being through paraphrasing.

I know something of the pitfalls of trying to capture a speaker's meaning through summation or paraphrase, namely a danger that the speaker's true intent or meaning is lost to some degree in the process. It could have been that President Nelson also said that the gathering is literal, with that portion of his remarks not being included in the report for whatever reason.

(By this, I don't mean anything disparaging toward the author of the article, my friend and former colleague Jason Swensen. It's just that I, through experience, understand the process.)

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That's a good point. Please enlarge upon it. What is the distinction?

The opposite of literal is figurative, not spiritual. 

I think spiritually gathering Israel out of the nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples of the world and bringing them into latter-day Zion is about as literal as a gathering gets, no?

Something rather significant occurs each Sunday in my ward when people from across our quadrant of the city, with national and ethnic origins that span the globe, and speaking about two dozen languages, all gather into a sacred space and worship together in complete unity. And this is merely symbolic of how we've all been literally gathered into a single congregation of the Restored Church. Again, we will see a larger version of this as we gather with our worldwide brothers and sisters in a general conference next month.

As Benedict Anderson noted about the conditions that create the modern nation: Why are we all here, together, at this time?

What exactly would a figurative gathering look like?

Edited September 5, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[SouthernMo]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Bear in mind that this quotation is taken from a newspaper story, with some of the quotation being through paraphrasing.

I know something of the pitfalls of trying to capture a speaker's meaning through summation or paraphrase, namely a danger that the speaker's true intent or meaning is lost to some degree in the process. It could have been that President Nelson also said that the gathering is literal, with that portion of his remarks not being included in the report for whatever reason.

(By this, I don't mean anything disparaging toward the author of the article, my friend and former colleague Jason Swensen. It's just that I, through experience, understand the process.)

 

Great point, but sometimes second hand paraphrasing is all we have, and we need to glean from it what we can.

The gospels of the New Testament, the large plates of the Book of Mormon, many early church teachings we have that were taken from notes of others are all examples of second hand information we have.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The opposite of literal is figurative, not spiritual. 

I think spiritually gathering Israel out of the nations, kindreds, tongues and peoples of the world and bringing them into latter-day Zion is about as literal as a gathering gets, no?

Something rather significant occurs each Sunday in my ward when people from across our quadrant of the city, with national and ethnic origins that span the globe, and speaking about two dozen languages, all gather into a sacred space and worship together in complete unity. And this is merely symbolic of how we've all been literally gathered into a single congregation of the Restored Church.

As Benedict Anderson wrote about the conditions that create the modern nation: Why are we all here, together, at this time?

What exactly would a figurative gathering look like?

And with this astute comment, Hamba Tuhan has set us all right. Bravo!

 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Great point, but sometimes second hand paraphrasing is all we have, and we need to glean from it what we can.

The gospels of the New Testament, the large plates of the Book of Mormon, many early church teachings we have that were taken from notes of others are all examples of second hand information we have.

A fair point.

 

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

Do we not believe in the literal gathering of Israel anymore?

"But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore as it says isles, there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren. For behold, the Lord God has led away from time to time from the house of Israel, according to his will and pleasure. And now behold, the Lord remembereth all them who have been broken off, wherefore he remembereth us also." - 2 Nephi 10:21 

Get ready for less talk about Nephites in Guatemala, and a lot more talk about their Israelite brethren everywhere else.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Rajah Manchou

[The Nehor]

Well, literal gathering will be hard for a while due to immigration laws. And what with the ‘big beautiful wall’ budget fight coming up......ehhh....it can wait for a bit.

Edited September 5, 2018 by The Nehor

[Rajah Manchou]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Well, literal gathering will be hard for a while due to immigration laws. And what with the ‘big beautiful wall’ budget fight coming up......ehhh....it can wait for a bit.

Budget fight? I thought it was settled that the Israelite remnant was going to be paying for that wall. 

[The Nehor]

Just now, Rajah Manchou said:

Budget fight? I thought it was settled that the Israelite remnant was going to be paying for that wall. 

And as soon as the promised check clears I will support the fight to build it 100%. Must have gotten lost in the mail.

[longview]

33 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And as soon as the promised check clears I will support the fight to build it 100%. Must have gotten lost in the mail.

No worry.  Mexico will pay for it one way or the other.

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, cinepro said:

With all the recent discussion of the Articles of Faith, this recent comment by President Nelson is interesting:

Here's the 10th Article of Faith:

Do we not believe in the literal gathering of Israel anymore?  Or is it something that we are putting off to some future date (linked to Christ's reign)?  Or is it a vestigial belief that could possibly be removed from the Articles of Faith since we don't currently believe it?

I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it.

[cinepro]

27 minutes ago, longview said:

No worry.  Mexico will pay for it one way or the other.

We're all going to pay for it one way or the other.