mnn727 Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 20 hours ago, Stargazer said: I've done more than just picture the person sitting through it with me -- I've occasionally felt them near. But much of the instruction you speak of involves a framing story that could be eliminated. The dead will have heard about the Creation and about the Fall in the instruction they would have gotten in the spirit world. The dead don't need the framing story in the endowment. What they need are the covenants and and those things we are admonished not to discuss in detail outside the temple. And the framing story is for our benefit, not the benefit of the dead. To help keep us from falling asleep, and maintain our interest. Why else do you think they change the films periodically? Besides making a few streamlining changes, there have been some cuts in the framing story. For example, you might not be old enough to remember one character in the drama that was eliminated, along with his scene. I think it shaved about 5 minutes off the running time. When the time comes that the reason for serving at the temple is solely for doing the work required by those who wait in the spirit world (i.e. the Millennium is here), then all but those covenants and the other essentials can be eliminated. Waiting in the Celestial room would no longer be done, because there'd be names to take through, and why are you just sitting there? Because of the framing story it takes approximately 90 minutes to do an endowment session now, depending upon how many are in the ordinance room, but when the temples "go into production", it will be covenant making and the other essentials, and then passing through the veil. 15 minutes or so to accomplish. Or at least that's how I think it will go. We will be under time pressure -- only a thousand years to get them all done, and we won't have time to waste! There will be billions of endowments to do, and the time for fluff will be over (most names will be supplied by revelation, since most people in the world lived and died with no documentation). Well, that's one persons opinion. YMMV
mnn727 Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 19 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Patrons don't even understand it now and that would make it worse. I can't tell you how many people say "patrotical" instead of patriarchal. And that is the present level of understanding. I say make it longer and teach people something. The very first time I went through, I was waiting for the rest of the dispensations to be shown. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 1 hour ago, mnn727 said: The very first time I went through, I was waiting for the rest of the dispensations to be shown. I get it! Yes they may cut some stuff- they have already cut the repetition significantly. But most folks don't actually listen to the little gems in the dialogue that reveal mountains of information, like one of my favorites "for that is the way Father gained His knowledge" Oh yeah- just cut that out. And how does one cast out Satan? Chop it. Who needs that? Drop the covenants- what good are they anyway. Drop all the instruction about how the covenants relate to the signs and how the veil demonstration is the key to that stuff. Drop the whole "semaphore code" aspect of the signs- and how those relate to the veil ceremony- who needs that symbolic language and the profundity that it represents? Obviously they might as well drop it since clearly nobody even gets what is in front of them anyway. If it's not on Facebook, it's not real. I suppose if you don't know it's there you will never miss it because you have already slept through it all. 1
RevTestament Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 56 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I get it! Yes they may cut some stuff- they have already cut the repetition significantly. But most folks don't actually listen to the little gems in the dialogue that reveal mountains of information, like one of my favorites "for that is the way Father gained His knowledge" Oh yeah- just cut that out. And how does one cast out Satan? Chop it. Who needs that? Drop the covenants- what good are they anyway. Drop all the instruction about how the covenants relate to the signs and how the veil demonstration is the key to that stuff. Drop the whole "semaphore code" aspect of the signs- and how those relate to the veil ceremony- who needs that symbolic language and the profundity that it represents? Obviously they might as well drop it since clearly nobody even gets what is in front of them anyway. If it's not on Facebook, it's not real. I suppose if you don't know it's there you will never miss it because you have already slept through it all. K. Now you get a chance to be my teacher. I currently see the semaphore code as being highly relevant to scripture, and even the name of the Father and Son, YHWH. Is that just me or do others look at that the same way? I think it does serve to "lift the veil" and understand what Christ did for us, and represented for us - that He did actually show the way to the holiest of all.... Is that what you be talkin bout?
clarkgoble Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 On 7/21/2018 at 6:48 PM, Duncan said: Well, the Temple isn't a factory where you need to pump put as many widgets as you can, so I don't see them shortening it. Besides of which, it's nice to sit in the Celestial room with your mind free and not have to worry about another group of people coming in. Depends upon whether you see endowments are primarily about helping the dead have a necessary rite or primarily about the living experiencing the endowment again. There's lots they could do to shorten the endowment though. Tons of padding in the current videos but the creation in particular could be dramatically shortened.
Stargazer Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 6 hours ago, mnn727 said: Well, that's one persons opinion. YMMV Well, of course. I did write: "Or at least that's how I think it will go."
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, clarkgoble said: Depends upon whether you see endowments are primarily about helping the dead have a necessary rite or primarily about the living experiencing the endowment again. There's lots they could do to shorten the endowment though. Tons of padding in the current videos but the creation in particular could be dramatically shortened. Frankly I think is more for the living than the Dead. Regardless, saying that and doing it are two different things. Making new movies is an expensive and huge process, and then every Temple reprogramming the endowment presentation is another huge project, so the lights come on properly, curtains rise and fall on time et cetera. And all the expense when they just came out with three new movies? The church is just going to chuck all the money they spent on all of that after just a couple of years? If it's going to happen it won't be soon. In the past the changes just appear, and are never announced previously. Edited October 3, 2018 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 5 hours ago, RevTestament said: K. Now you get a chance to be my teacher. I currently see the semaphore code as being highly relevant to scripture, and even the name of the Father and Son, YHWH. Is that just me or do others look at that the same way? I think it does serve to "lift the veil" and understand what Christ did for us, and represented for us - that He did actually show the way to the holiest of all.... Is that what you be talkin bout? Yep, If ya unnstan wot I'm sayin.
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 1 minute ago, mfbukowski said: ... and then every Temple reprogramming the endowment presentation is another huge project, so the lights come on properly, curtains rise and fall on time et cetera. My understanding is that the digital signals for all of this are part of the recording, no programming needed. But yeah, I don't see the Church giving us less for any reason. One of my favourite things about serving in the temple is the opportunity to receive revelation in relation to prayer. The training materials are very clear on this point: those who pray in the temple should spiritually prepare themselves for this task, even before they enter the temple, and should seek revelation in order to speak on behalf of the entire assembly. During my very first assignment, I assumed that I'd just offer a nice prayer and hope that it was good enough. Instead, as I sat in the endowment room, surrounded by the grandeur of God's creative power, the entire prayer was dictated to me, word for word. That hasn't always happened, but it happens more often than not, and it was the case again this past Saturday. The first set of words are spoken to me, and then I repeat them back in my head until I can remember them. Then the next set of words, and then the next. I find I barely have time to complete this entire process before it's time to kneel and offer the prayer that has been given to me. Every good thing takes time. Every godly thing takes time ... which I think is one of the lessons of the creation narrative. 3
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 26 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: My understanding is that the digital signals for all of this are part of the recording, no programming needed. But yeah, I don't see the Church giving us less for any reason. One of my favourite things about serving in the temple is the opportunity to receive revelation in relation to prayer. The training materials are very clear on this point: those who pray in the temple should spiritually prepare themselves for this task, even before they enter the temple, and should seek revelation in order to speak on behalf of the entire assembly. During my very first assignment, I assumed that I'd just offer a nice prayer and hope that it was good enough. Instead, as I sat in the endowment room, surrounded by the grandeur of God's creative power, the entire prayer was dictated to me, word for word. That hasn't always happened, but it happens more often than not, and it was the case again this past Saturday. The first set of words are spoken to me, and then I repeat them back in my head until I can remember them. Then the next set of words, and then the next. I find I barely have time to complete this entire process before it's time to kneel and offer the prayer that has been given to me. Every good thing takes time. Every godly thing takes time ... which I think is one of the lessons of the creation narrative. Excellent points! It's wonderful that you have been given such a gift. I could not remember those instructions for 2 minutes! I think the manual and the videos show that there are specific things that are appropriate for the prayer and things that are not. I have a hard enough time remembering those much less what I would like to say, but often times the words just come by the spirit directly to my mind and I say them. Regarding programming, perhaps in small temples it is all programmed, but certainly not where the patrons walk between rooms and the ceremony must start and stop and specific places, curtains rise and fall at cetera. Some temples have curtains others do not. I don't understand how they could work on that from a central location for everyone. In Los Angeles Temple for example there are special lights that come on and twinkle in the ceiling when the stars are created Etc. That must be programmed into the presentation. There are curtains that go up and down in the Garden Room, and the screen itself is at first rolled and rises from the bottom of the screen area to the top, then is automatically rolled up again awaiting the next session. In the Terrestrial room the lights suddenly get brighter at a specific moment In the presentation. And then there is the ASL presentation which must by its very nature become more complex, adding multiple monitors all coordinated with the sound at cetera. There are numerous malfunctions which I have witnessed. Sometimes the entire presentation goes down and the temple president actually comes in to read the text of the ceremony in order to finish the ordinances in that room, before the patrons move on to the next.. There are power failures and other natural phenomenon which can interrupt the presentation, making it hard to continue without a reboot, which could result in repetition and delay in all the rest of the endowments that day. Perhaps in some places it is as simple as plugging in a video, but not everywhere. If all the temples were identical it could probably work but they're not. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I could not remember those instructions for 2 minutes! One of my fears is that many temple workers, instead of remembering the instructions we are given, just do what we've always seen be done. Quote Regarding programming, perhaps in small temples it is all programmed, but certainly not where the patrons walk between rooms and the ceremony must start and stop and specific places, curtains rise and fall at cetera. Are you saying that temple workers are opening and closing curtains by hand, i.e. manually pushing buttons or flicking switches to make it happen?
mfbukowski Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said: One of my fears is that many temple workers, instead of remembering the instructions we are given, just do what we've always seen be done. Are you saying that temple workers are opening and closing curtains by hand, i.e. manually pushing buttons or flicking switches to make it happen? No, it is all automatic and programmed to synchronize with the presentation. The officiator presses a button to begin the whole process. In a small way it is like one of those automated theme park multimedia displays, at least technologically. I know for sure that it is programmed locally because I have talked to the engineers and the officiator in the Garden room at first had to press the button once 2 raise the screen and a second time to start the presentation. They finally were able to work it out where one press of the button both races the screen and starts presentation. When it's time to move into the next room everything folds itself up and resets itself for the next group. I cannot imagine we are the only temple in the church that has such a presentation. I was speaking of the instructions about the prayer. There are things that must be mentioned in the prayer circle, well the rest is subject to the inspiration of the individual praying. My comment was that I had enough trouble following the instructions of what I was supposed to mention in the prayer, then think about what I wanted particularly to say, and so I had to give the spirit full reign seeking immediately for what the Lord wanted me to say. I was speaking about remembering the requirements of the prayer and the instruction we had, while simultaneously seeking what the spirit wanted me to add.
theplains Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 On 7/21/2018 at 8:42 PM, Unaffiliated said: In the temple you can go and do many baptisms, confirmations, initiatories and sealings at a time. 1 endowment session takes like 2.5 hours to get 1 name through. I believe this is where there's a big backup in ordinances to do. What spends a lot of time in the endowment is someone relating something to another and they relay the same thing to another. The cycle keeps going through the whole session saying every word and repeating every word. Do you think getting rid of all the repetition would help shorten the time an endowment session takes or all every single one of those repetitions and relating of information back and forth necessary to get the true experience. I know they've taken things out of the endowment in the past. Why shorten something if you believe it was instituted by God? Jim
Rock_N_Roll Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, theplains said: Why shorten something if you believe it was instituted by God? Jim It has already been shortened. And more than once.
clarkgoble Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 1 hour ago, theplains said: Why shorten something if you believe it was instituted by God? Why assume every aspect was explicitly dictated by God? Further if God speaks to us in our culture what works well for one people might not for an other. It's akin to asking why translate scripture if they were given by God. 3
Okrahomer Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 2 hours ago, theplains said: Why shorten something if you believe it was instituted by God? Jim Your question reminds me of Peter's initial reaction to the vision described in Acts 10: "Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean."
JLHPROF Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 11 hours ago, Rock_N_Roll said: It has already been shortened. And more than once. Hacked to bits. Actually not hacked. Neutered.
RevTestament Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Hacked to bits. Actually not hacked. Neutered. Not at all. Perhaps you do not understand it.
Rain Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) On 10/2/2018 at 6:38 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: My understanding is that the digital signals for all of this are part of the recording, no programming needed. But yeah, I don't see the Church giving us less for any reason. One of my favourite things about serving in the temple is the opportunity to receive revelation in relation to prayer. The training materials are very clear on this point: those who pray in the temple should spiritually prepare themselves for this task, even before they enter the temple, and should seek revelation in order to speak on behalf of the entire assembly. During my very first assignment, I assumed that I'd just offer a nice prayer and hope that it was good enough. Instead, as I sat in the endowment room, surrounded by the grandeur of God's creative power, the entire prayer was dictated to me, word for word. That hasn't always happened, but it happens more often than not, and it was the case again this past Saturday. The first set of words are spoken to me, and then I repeat them back in my head until I can remember them. Then the next set of words, and then the next. I find I barely have time to complete this entire process before it's time to kneel and offer the prayer that has been given to me. Every good thing takes time. Every godly thing takes time ... which I think is one of the lessons of the creation narrative. I have found most temple prayers very similar. Then came the time that I wonder if the officiator experienced what you did. I was devestated over something. I talked to a friend who told me something that felt right, but I wasn't sure I could believe it. She said it using unusual terms. I then went to the temple. The officiator prayed using the terms they often do and then he repeated the words my friend used. It was enough to help me start to heal. Edited October 6, 2018 by Rain 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 (edited) On 10/6/2018 at 5:06 PM, Rain said: I then went to the temple. The officiator prayer using the terms they often do and the he repeated the words my friend used. It was enough to help me start to heal. Thank you for sharing this. This is precisely what is supposed to happen all the time: the one praying is supposed to speak on behalf of the entire assembly. The instructions on this are very clear, including what we should be doing to prepare ourselves to receive this kind of revelation. I didn't plan to bring this up, but after the session that I prayed in last week, I passed through the change room, and a brother caught me by the arm and thanked me for my prayer. It perfectly expressed the unspeakable things that had been in his heart, he said. That's a good feeling. I want to be in a position to do that for people each and every time. I worry sometimes that even temple workers can fall into ruts if they're not careful, just going through the motions. I've listened to one of our supervisors give the exact same prayer in every single session I've been in with him. This is NOT what we're instructed to do. To be honest, so far it's been only once that I haven't had the words of the prayer basically dictated to me during the session. I kept wondering what was wrong with me, and I did everything I could to seek inspiration, and then the answer came: 'Hamba, everyone in this session will be fine with whatever you say. Say whatever you want to hear'. So I did. By the way, your experience reminds me so much of one I've shared a few times on this forum before. One of my young men had asked me to be with him and his family when he received his patriarchal blessing. During the day, he sent me a text, telling me that he didn't feel right and was thinking of postponing his blessing. I had no clue what to write back to him to build him up for what was to come that evening, but I prayed and then tapped out a very long message. After sending it off, I felt inadequate, but thankfully the blessing went ahead. As I sat in the patriarch's home that evening, I was struck by something he said as he pronounced the blessing. It was the entire content of my text! When the young man got the paper copy of his blessing, I asked him if I could check something. He gave me permission, so I compared the passage to the sent copy of the text on my phone: only two words different in several sentences, and both differences were synonyms. Even when he saw me reading his blessing and checking my phone, the young man never noticed what had happened. I never felt the need to point it out. I decided it was for me, not him. God wanted me to know that, in my weaknesses and foolishness, He can speak through me as much as He can through a patriarch ... that He can use me even if I don't fully recognise that He's doing it. Edited October 7, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 3
JLHPROF Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: Not at all. Perhaps you do not understand it. Quite the opposite unfortunately.
RevTestament Posted October 6, 2018 Posted October 6, 2018 46 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Quite the opposite unfortunately. I don't believe there is anything more profound than the way it is. Quote 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 9, 2018 Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) Tacking this on here because it's too small for its own thread: The Church has released the rendering for the Abidjan Temple, and it appears that the angel is the same colour as (and almost an extension of) the silver spire. Interesting. I guess it could be a poor image, but the gilding on 'Holiness to the Lord' is clearly gold. Anyway, I like it! (Never been a big fan of gold.) I look forward to the day that Africa is dotted with temples! Yesterday I got to share with a dear Nigerian ward member the good news that a temple will be built in Lagos, where he grew up (on the streets as an orphan). Edited October 9, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 1
Calm Posted October 9, 2018 Posted October 9, 2018 (edited) Iirc, They tried that before sort of, Monticello had a white angel. It didn't work on cloudy days or it just wasn't appreciated by most so they were changed to gold, though I preferred it myself. (Making the angel gold on smaller temples throws off the balance for me, the angel looks oversized to me...but that is just me, maybe it's because I grew up across the bay from Oakland and was married there and my favorite temple is Cardston, so I don't feel so bonded with the Moroni motif as some might be). https://www.deseretnews.com/top/2075/0/20-little-known-facts-about-Mormon-temples-Angel-Moroni-statues.html corrected as apparently just one did it that way. Edited October 9, 2018 by Calm
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 9, 2018 Posted October 9, 2018 Just now, Calm said: They tried that before sort of, a couple of temples had a white angel. It didn't work on cloudy days or it just wasn't appreciated by most so they were changed to gold, though I preferred it myself. I remember the white angel experiment. I can see how that wouldn't be as visible.
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