Do you see the church shortening the Endowment?

[The Mean Farmer]

FWIW

The reason the characters speak more slowly in the new Temple Endowment films is due to translation times.

They slowed it down so they could get all of the words, dialects, emotions, and inflections into the words/phrases for all languages.  --  no need to rush i guess.

[Kenngo1969]

On 7/22/2018 at 11:21 PM, Unaffiliated said:

But not every patron has patience.

They can learn.  

[Gray]

I don't know that it necessarily needs shortening - I think there's value in a long, contemplative ritual. It might be interesting to come up with an entirely different liturgy based on something other than the creation story (for instance, the life of Jesus). Not as a replacement, but something that could be rotated through along with the current version.

[esodije]

The biggest reason for the halting, drawn-out delivery in the newer videos is to create “space” for some of the foreign-language dubs.  I’m told that the Navajo translation, especially, had to be spoken at break-neck speed to keep up with the visuals.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, esodije said:

The biggest reason for the halting, drawn-out delivery in the newer videos is to create “space” for some of the foreign-language dubs.  I’m told that the Navajo translation, especially, had to be spoken at break-neck speed to keep up with the visuals.

That makes sense.

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I don't know that it necessarily needs shortening - I think there's value in a long, contemplative ritual. It might be interesting to come up with an entirely different liturgy based on something other than the creation story (for instance, the life of Jesus). Not as a replacement, but something that could be rotated through along with the current version.

I think much of the symbolism would be lost.  There is a meaning in the progression from baptism, initiatory, endowment, and sealing that goes along with the journey of Adam and Eve through mortality.  In the Salt Lake temple in particular even the movement through rooms and the associated architecture has symbolic meaning tied in with Adam and Eve and the mortal journey.

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I think much of the symbolism would be lost.  There is a meaning in the progression from baptism, initiatory, endowment, and sealing that goes along with the journey of Adam and Eve through mortality.  In the Salt Lake temple in particular even the movement through rooms and the associated architecture has symbolic meaning tied in with Adam and Eve and the mortal journey.

None of the covenants, signs or tokens have much to do with creation or Adam and Eve. I think they could be adapted to a very different liturgy without any harm. In fact the "meat" of the endowment doesn't start until Jesus' disciples show up in the movie.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

None of the covenants, signs or tokens have much to do with creation or Adam and Eve. I think they could be adapted to a very different liturgy without any harm. In fact the "meat" of the endowment doesn't start until Jesus' disciples show up in the movie.

I would respectfully disagree.  Everything seems intertwined to me.

[Gray]

44 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would respectfully disagree.  Everything seems intertwined to me.

Well, I can't refute that without specifically talking about them, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

None of the covenants, signs or tokens have much to do with creation or Adam and Eve. I think they could be adapted to a very different liturgy without any harm. In fact the "meat" of the endowment doesn't start until Jesus' disciples show up in the movie.

I think the meat of the temple ceremony is the need for a Savior and the plan of salvation (where we came from, why we are here, and where we are going after we die).   It's difficult to teach the Atonement without teaching the creation and Fall first (we see this in Mosiah where Ammon has to start with the creation and fall to teach king Lamoni about who God is).  When pondering the verse in the POGP that teaches that God's work and His glory are to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, an understanding of the creation and fall becomes absolutely necessary (which is probably why the creation and fall are also taught in that book of scripture before God can answer Moses' question about why He created us).   

Covenants are also central to the temple endowment, and the covenants we learn about and choose to accept have their beginning in the garden.

Edited October 1, 2018 by bluebell

[Duncan]

We have two couples  in our ward who are deaf and seriously the most beautiful and wonderful sessions i've been in is when they are there and they have the ASL translation on a screen. It is really powerful. if you ever get a chance to attend a ASL session I would encourage it. I remember though in the mission field I saw a ASL translation endowment session and it was all clunky, they had to push the TV into the room and hook it up and the quality as i recall was all flippy and I was kind of embarrassed for the deaf person. Now they have improved it immensely and it's just a wonderful thing!

[Stargazer]

On 7/22/2018 at 2:56 AM, rpn said:

Does no one picture the person sitting through the instruction with them?   The instruction is an important part of the whole.

I've done more than just picture the person sitting through it with me -- I've occasionally felt them near.  But much of the instruction you speak of involves a framing story that could be eliminated.  The dead will have heard about the Creation and about the Fall in the instruction they would have gotten in the spirit world.  The dead don't need the framing story in the endowment.  What they need are the covenants and and those things we are admonished not to discuss in detail outside the temple.   And the framing story is for our benefit, not the benefit of the dead.  To help keep us from falling asleep, and maintain our interest.  Why else do you think they change the films periodically?  Besides making a few streamlining changes, there have been some cuts in the framing story. For example, you might not be old enough to remember one character in the drama that was eliminated, along with his scene.  I think it shaved about 5 minutes off the running time.  

When the time comes that the reason for serving at the temple is solely for doing the work required by those who wait in the spirit world (i.e. the Millennium is here), then all but those covenants and the other essentials can be eliminated.  Waiting in the Celestial room would no longer be done, because there'd be names to take through, and why are you just sitting there?  Because of the framing story it takes approximately 90 minutes to do an endowment session now, depending upon how many are in the ordinance room, but when the temples "go into production", it will be covenant making and the other essentials, and then passing through the veil.  15 minutes or so to accomplish.  Or at least that's how I think it will go.  We will be under time pressure -- only a thousand years to get them all done, and we won't have time to waste!  There will be billions of endowments to do, and the time for fluff will be over (most names will be supplied by revelation, since most people in the world lived and died with no documentation). 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 7/21/2018 at 11:21 PM, carbon dioxide said:

It would be very easy to shorten the endowment.  One thing that the younger crowd could get behind is using lots of acronyms.  They are used to text messages with the normal LOL and BFF, and the rest.  I am sure that can be done many places in the endowment.

Yeh, and we could even have virtual endowment sessions, in addition to the live and film versions we now have.  Still, what's the hurry?  What are the consequences to cutting corners and shaving time off the full endowment session?  The orthodox Jewish solution to their long liturgy each Sabbath is to speed up the process by speaking so quickly that the uninitiated get left behind.  Shouldn't there be time for reflection?

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yeh, and we could even have virtual endowment sessions, in addition to the live and film versions we now have.  Still, what's the hurry?  What are the consequences to cutting corners and shaving time off the full endowment session?  The orthodox Jewish solution to their long liturgy each Sabbath is to speed up the process by speaking so quickly that the uninitiated get left behind.  Shouldn't there be time for reflection?

Much of the endowment, including the initiatory is done for the double purpose of doing work for the dead, but also for our own edification.  Thus I think they've shaved it down to the minimum in order to cover both purposes.  As I opined above, however, during the Millennium the focus of the work will probably change and the edification of those working in the temple will not be so important, with so much work to do.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Much of the endowment, including the initiatory is done for the double purpose of doing work for the dead, but also for our own edification.  Thus I think they've shaved it down to the minimum in order to cover both purposes.  As I opined above, however, during the Millennium the focus of the work will probably change and the edification of those working in the temple will not be so important, with so much work to do.

Unless there is edification by proxy, i.e., your mindfulness transmitting itself to the mind of the one beyond the veil.

[mfbukowski]

On 7/21/2018 at 7:30 PM, Duncan said:

and treats!!!!! if God can cook Nephi's meat then why not some munchies?

We are having a treat problem especially in primary. 

After the loaves and fishes miracle, Jesus had the same problem.  The SP has banned treats because some were actually coming to church for cupcakes etc, even on fast Sunday! 

Parents would drop the kids off, go home for a couple of hours and pick them up, and the kids loved it because of the treats.

 

 

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, The Mean Farmer said:

FWIW

The reason the characters speak more slowly in the new Temple Endowment films is due to translation times.

They slowed it down so they could get all of the words, dialects, emotions, and inflections into the words/phrases for all languages.  --  no need to rush i guess.

Film A with Michael Ballam is actually 12 minutes shorter than the 3 new films, because of the slow down.

The workers love it when film A is scheduled for the last one of the evening because they get out 12 minutes earlier.

The difference in timing keeps coordinators on their toes as well, in preparing for the veil Etc.

Edited October 1, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 7/21/2018 at 10:21 PM, carbon dioxide said:

It would be very easy to shorten the endowment.  One thing that the younger crowd could get behind is using lots of acronyms.  They are used to text messages with the normal LOL and BFF, and the rest.  I am sure that can be done many places in the endowment.

Patrons don't even understand it now and that would make it worse. I can't tell you how many people say "patrotical" instead of patriarchal.

And that is the present level of understanding.

I say make it longer and teach people something.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

That makes sense.

Even Spanish takes more word than English

Next time you buy an electronic device or virtually anything really look at the long instructions and compare the length of the notes in English versus the lengths of the notes in other languages.

[strappinglad]

We really need that reformed Egyptian text in which a couple dozen plates could cover the same stuff as 500 +/- pages of English. I wonder which modern language text of the BoM is the shortest and which the longest. Anyone?....Beuller ? 

For me , the most mechanical operation in the temple is the confirmation. Some Brethren really get into a rhythm and can knock out a dozen per minute. The baptistery would be frothing if it were to speed up too much from now. There needs to be SOME dignity, right? Besides, time is not a problem with the Lord . He has  been coming SOON for at least a thousand years.

[Hamba Tuhan]

27 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

For me , the most mechanical operation in the temple is the confirmation. Some Brethren really get into a rhythm and can knock out a dozen per minute.

This is a shame. I love doing confirmations. The men who are 'getting into rhythm' are really missing out, I fear, and then too are those they're confirming. I've found that despite the words being the same, each experience can -- and probably should -- be unique. And then there's that experience that happens every time that one, really paying attention, speaks the words, 'I say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost'. It always reminds me of the Saviour's words in Luke 8:46.

I've now been an ordinance worker for exactly one year, and I've reached the firm conclusion that those who perform the ordinances in large part determine the experience of patrons receiving the ordinances. The instructions about what we should be doing to make that happen are quite clear.

Quote

Besides, time is not a problem with the Lord .

Exactly! We're the only ones worried about how long things take. And why? So we can go home early and watch 12 extra minutes of mind-rotting TV???

Edited October 1, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is a shame. I love doing confirmations. The men who are 'getting into rhythm' are really missing out, I fear, and then too are those they're confirming. I've found that despite the words being the same, each experience can -- and probably should -- be unique. And then there's that experience that happens every time that one, really paying attention, speaks the words, 'I say unto you, receive the Holy Ghost'. It always reminds me of the Saviour's words in Luke 8:46.

I've now been an ordinance worker for exactly one year, and I've reached the firm conclusion that those who perform the ordinances in large part determine the experience of patrons receiving the ordinances. The instructions about what we should be doing to make that happen are quite clear.

Exactly! We're the only ones worried about how long things take. And why? So we can go home early and watch 12 extra minutes of mind-rotting TV???

I agree.  No rushing!  It's important to take these things with a certain degree of solemnity.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Stargazer

[mnn727]

On 7/21/2018 at 11:42 PM, Unaffiliated said:

Are old people also the reason why they never turn on the air conditioning in temples during the endowment? I've seen many people pass out from heat this summer and I almost passed out in the Provo temple because there was no air flowing. It gets too hot during a session.

In 20+ years of Temple attendance I've never seen anyone pass out - I have heard a lot of people complaining on both sides.

[mnn727]

On 7/22/2018 at 3:26 PM, Unaffiliated said:

But don't you agree the backup in getting names completed lies with the endowment?

Whats the rush?

[mnn727]

On 7/23/2018 at 12:21 AM, Unaffiliated said:

But not every patron has patience.

Then the Temple is a place to learn to have patience - slow down, leave your busy life outside the Temple and be prepared to commune with God. YOu're there to learn eternal lessons, not to knock off numbers.