I feel like we all should agree on this one regardless of where we are with the truth claims of the Church

[smac97]

1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

Think this through. How much influence does the LDS Church have in utah with Legislators? Is that influence unique to Utah in terms of a religious institution being able to influence about half or more of its politicians to side with it out of loyalty?

Baseless conjecture and conspiracy-mongering is not "think[ing] this through."

Quote

This same religious institution owns Police Departments in the state and can through that police department access records it has no business accessing.

This is rank bigotry, on par with anti-semitic "The Jews Run Hollywood" and "Wall Street is a Jewish Shtetl" hatefulness.

You should be ashamed.

Quote

That same Police Force can then redact documents when those redactions will hide that Religious Institutions unethical use of the Police Force to access records unethically.

Here are the allegations that are apparently being referenced here (emphasis added):

Quote

BYU police provided some records but refused to release communication between the department and the Mormon school’s Honor Code and Title IX offices.

The university police have said they do not conduct investigations for the Honor Code Office. However, The Tribune has obtained internal BYU documents that show a BYU police lieutenant used his access to Provo police records, via a countywide law enforcement database, for an Honor Code investigation into the conduct of a student who had reported a sexual assault to Provo police.

The Utah Department of Public Safety spent a year investigating how BYU officers access and share their own reports and the records of other Utah County police agencies. While the investigation was completed last July, the Utah attorney general’s office has been reviewing the case ever since — and the findings have not yet been made public.

If this happened, and if this sort of thing has happened previously as pertaining to BYU's Honor Code Office improper use of / access to law enforcement databases, then I think that should be addressed.  Publicly.  And if laws have been broken, there should be some real consequences to that.

I have previously said that I have some real concerns about BYU (and other private universities) having broad law enforcement authority.  This is particularly so where, as here, the educational institution is owned and directed by a religious institution.  But let's get real here.  BYU is very much an anomaly.  There's only one of them in the entire state.  So transmuting this one issue into a broad accusation that the LDS Church "owns Police Departments in the state" goes well beyond the facts and well into bigotry.

Quote

This same Religious Institution can then also wants to claim its private police Force be exempt from GRAMA Laws that would expose all of its unethical activity. 

This same Religious Institution can also influence legislators and Political leaders to not release and publish studies done to see how Police Records were accessed and utilized by This same Private police Force in order to help the Religious institution to resolve worthiness issues within its university.

This is messed up.

Indeed it is.  In 2018, no person of any decency would feel at liberty to publicly disparage Jews or Catholics or Muslims in this way.

But when Mormons are in the crosshairs, all bets are off.  Bigotry carries the day.

Quote

In no other state would this dynamic play out.  And it speaks loudly to how dysfunctional Utah is in having this large influence by Church upon State, in ways that deeply run counter to the Separation of Such and the very why of said Separation.

Bigotry is Ignorance's vicious little brother.

See here:

Quote

According to this article, 38 percent of private colleges in the U.S. (with student bodies larger than 2,500) use sworn police officers in their security operations.  A few other interesting bits:

Quote

Of those 153 departments, 82 percent were authorized to carry sidearms. By contrast, 92 percent of public universities within that cohort used sworn police officers. Nearly all were authorized to use sidearms.

...

Not all university police jurisdictions are created equal. Three-quarters of private-college police departments told the Department Justice their jurisdiction extended to properties adjacent to campus. Nearly 60 percent said their jurisdictions applied to properties outside the area surrounding campus. Twenty percent of departments said they had the authority to make arrests statewide.

And this:

Quote

The Texas Supreme Court and Texas Court of Appeals ruled a Rice University police officer could not be held liable for an arrest that ended with dropped charges. The court found that the officer was entitled to the same protections from legal claims arising against public officials acting in their sanctioned capacities. The North Carolina Court of Appeals reached a similar conclusion for the Duke University Police Department after one of its officers fatally shot an alleged panhandler outside the university’s hospital. Officers and hospital visitors alleged that the man wrestled a firearm out of the officer’s holster and refused to release the weapon. Conversely, Georgia’s Supreme Court ruled that police officers at Agnes Scott College were not entitled to such an immunity.

Transparency is also a concern, Lester and other advocates say. In 2016 the Indiana Supreme Court ruled that state-imbued arrest powers did not require the University of Notre Dame to give ESPN crime reports that pertained to student athletes. And a 2016 review by the Student Press Law Center found that only Connecticut, Georgia, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, and Virginia had enacted legislation requiring some sort of disclosure by private police departments sanctioned by the state. And even in states with transparency laws, some private-university actors fail to adhere to the spirit of the law. In the case of Duke, the university has typically provided only the first page of police reports while sometimes redacting portions of that single page.

But unlike municipal police departments, private-college police departments are required to comply with crime and safety reporting under the Clery Act, said David Tedjeske, director of public safety and chief of police at Villanova University. In addition, Tedjeske, who is also Mid-Atlantic Region director of the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement Administrators, said strict federal laws require college police departments to issue timely alerts to their communities when particular criminal activity occurs on or near campus. And, when it comes to pertinent information related to criminal procedure, Tedjeske said those records can always be accessed through the courts.

"I take issue a little bit with the assertion that we are not as accountable as our municipal counterparts," Tedjeske said.

The 2016 Indiana Supreme Court decision is interesting.

Georgia and Indiana are not really known as hotbeds of pro-Mormon legislative/judicial activism.  And only six states ("Connecticut, Georgia, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, and Virginia") have legislation in place "requiring some sort of disclosure by private police departments sanctioned by the state."

"Three-quarters of private-college police departments told the Department Justice their jurisdiction extended to properties adjacent to campus. Nearly 60 percent said their jurisdictions applied to properties outside the area surrounding campus. Twenty percent of departments said they had the authority to make arrests statewide."

The issue of accountability and oversight for quasi-"private" law enforcement looks to be a nationwide issue.

Again, bigotry and ignorance often go hand in hand.  

Quote

Please for those who are loyal to the Church, can you make an argument for why a Church owned Police department should be able to avoid the checks and balances that dissuade or prevent corruption?

First, BYU PD is not "owned" by the LDS Church.

Second, I generally agree with the Tribune's legal arguments.  I think the BYU PD should be subject to the same sorts of oversights and accountability procedures as any other law enforcement entity.

Third, I nevertheless despise bigoted attempts to weaponize this issue against the LDS Church, as you have done.  It's stuff like this that makes people like me distrust people like you.  Every issue is viewed through an I-hate-Mormonism-so-much-that-I'll-weaponize-anything-I-can-get-my-hands-on-to-make-the-LDS-Church-look-bad lens.

-Smac

Edited July 18, 2018 by smac97

[jkwilliams]

How is it rank bigotry to acknowledge that the church owns and operates police departments (BYU PD and LDSBC CSD)? 

[smac97]

26 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't see how he's "weaponizing" the issue. 

All right.  Then take a look at DBMormon's post.  That's a much better example of "weaponizing."

26 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It's a safe bet that people here divide into "teams" based on their opinions about the truth claims of the church.

Not really.  I love the LDS Church.  And I love BYU.  I went there.  Twice (BA and JD).  So did my parents.  So did my wife (I met her there).  So did my two older brothers and one younger sister.  I live in Provo.  I am definitely on the "team" loyal to the LDS Church.  And yet the issue here is a complex legal matter pertaining to procedural/administrative oversight of law enforcement.  There are a lot of moving parts to it.  A lot of factors to take into account.  Broadly speaking, however, I have some concerns about civil law enforcement authority and power being vested in private entities (such as BYU PD) without a concomitant measure of supervision and oversight and accountability.  "With great power comes great responsibility" and all that.

I feel totally comfortable saying this, as this has essentially nothing to do with whether Joseph Smith had a theophany in 1820, whether a resurrected angel visited him and told him where to find authentically ancient metal plates, whether he translated those plates "by the gift and power of God," and so on.  For that matter, BYU PD's obligations relative to GRAMA also have nothing to do with Jesus Christ being born of a virgin, living a sinless life, suffering and being slain and atorning for the sins of the world, and resurrecting on the third day.  All of these are "the truth claims of the [LDS] church."  None of them are relevant to GRAMA.

26 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Saying that he thinks all sides should agree about BYU's legal position is simply an acknowledgement of that division. 

Fair enough.  DBMormon makes my point about weaponizing much better.

26 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Seriously, I remember what it's like to live in a state of perpetual outrage, and it's exhausting. Not everything is an affront to your beliefs or mine.

I don't know what it's like to "live in a state of perpetual outrage."  I fortunately have only fleeting interactions with people who say outrageous, bigoted things.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

The case you quote doesn't seem to support that claim.  Of course, IANAL.

Wow.  That's a less-than-fortunate acronym.  😀

Perhaps IANAA ("I Am Not An Attorney") would be better.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I live in Davis county and Utah state is a huge thing here.  Most of the kids in our ward's youth program are planning on going to Utah State.  We do have some ardent U of U fans and a couple of BYU (U of U definitely outnumber BYU) but Logan is were it's at.

Our high school isn't Davis though, so maybe that's why.  

My wife and I both graduated from BYU (I did it twice).  I have raised my family in Provo.  My oldest daughter, however, wants to attend . . . wait for it . . . USU.  And I fully support her.  She will be attending UVU this year (she just returned from spending her senior year in high school as an exchange student in Italy), then go on a mission, then she's off to Aggie Country.

I have lost count of the number of people who rave about USU.  It seems to engender some real affection and loyalty from its students/graduates.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

My wife and I both graduated from BYU (I did it twice).  I have raised my family in Provo.  My oldest daughter, however, wants to attend . . . wait for it . . . USU.  And I fully support her.  She will be attending UVU this year (she just returned from spending her senior year in high school as an exchange student in Italy), then go on a mission, then she's off to Aggie Country.

I have lost count of the number of people who rave about USU.  It seems to engender some real affection and loyalty from its students/graduates.

Thanks,

-Smac

She will love it up here.  I wish her well in her future endeavors.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

My wife and I both graduated from BYU (I did it twice).  I have raised my family in Provo.  My oldest daughter, however, wants to attend . . . wait for it . . . USU.  And I fully support her.  She will be attending UVU this year (she just returned from spending her senior year in high school as an exchange student in Italy), then go on a mission, then she's off to Aggie Country.

I have lost count of the number of people who rave about USU.  It seems to engender some real affection and loyalty from its students/graduates.

Thanks,

-Smac

My daughter loved USU but did not enjoy her roommates. Daughter #2 attended UVU and BYU, both of which she loved. Daughter #3 is at BYU-Idaho currently and loves it. My sons have attended Angelo State, UVU, and Snow College. BYU isn't a good fit for everyone, and I hope your daughter has a good experience in Italy, her mission, and Logan, respectively. 

[bluebell]

59 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Maybe I'm just conditioned not to see USU paraphernalia.

My daughter attended USU after graduating from Snow College, and she enjoyed her time up there. She's back in Virginia now finishing up her Bachelor's degree, as she had to quit USU because she had a bad case of mononucleosis and strep and had to move in with us back there. It all works out, because she never would have met her fiance if she had stayed at USU. She'll graduate next month and then is getting married in October. 

Now that I think about it, I don't know if i would even recognize USU paraphernalia.  It doesn't seem like people who love it are quite as showy about that love, like with other colleges in Utah.

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Now that I think about it, I don't know if i would even recognize USU paraphernalia.  It doesn't seem like people who love it are quite as showy about that love, like with other colleges in Utah.

Maybe so. I don’t really understand school rivalries, and I find it funny that people make assumptions about you based on your alma mater. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Maybe I'm just conditioned not to see USU paraphernalia.

My daughter attended USU after graduating from Snow College, and she enjoyed her time up there. She's back in Virginia now finishing up her Bachelor's degree, as she had to quit USU because she had a bad case of mononucleosis and strep and had to move in with us back there. It all works out, because she never would have met her fiance if she had stayed at USU. She'll graduate next month and then is getting married in October. 

You can get UoU and BYU stuff in tons of stores here in Utah Valley, see lots of UoU stuff in SL when shopping there (rare).  To get UVU stuff you have to go to the University.  Perhaps USU is in the same boat.  Less access to products means less display.

BTW, UVU is the largest university in Utah.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Calm

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, smac97 said:

My wife and I both graduated from BYU (I did it twice).  I have raised my family in Provo.  My oldest daughter, however, wants to attend . . . wait for it . . . USU.  And I fully support her.  She will be attending UVU this year (she just returned from spending her senior year in high school as an exchange student in Italy), then go on a mission, then she's off to Aggie Country.

I have lost count of the number of people who rave about USU.  It seems to engender some real affection and loyalty from its students/graduates.

Thanks,

-Smac

Lucky her! And lucky you and your wife! She sounds like a goal setter and the fact that she was an exchange student in Italy sounds wonderful. Her life planned out. My son and daughter-in-law are USU graduates and they loved their time there. 

[FunOnlineMan]

I’m just here to support my team. Go RebelRedStormTrailblazers!

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

B ... Who?

 

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's up to U !

 

I was eating lunch at The Smoking Apple BBQ in Lindon UT yesterday, just down the road from my digs in Pleasant Grove (it's excellent, if you find yourself in the neighborhood) and two guys walked in wearing "U" T-shirts.  I revealed my closely-guarded status as a "U" graduate and asked them if they thought we were safe, since we were in northern Utah County.   

 

 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

How is it rank bigotry to acknowledge that the church owns and operates police departments (BYU PD and LDSBC CSD)? 

LDS Business College does not appear to have a "police department."  It's website indicates that people should "{p}romptly report suspicious incidents, activities, or persons to the police or to the Church Security Department (CSD)."

The CSD, per the school's "Emergency and Safety Plan," appears to have de minimis "law enforcement" authority:

Quote

The Church Security Department (CSD) promotes a safe and peaceful environment in which the mission of LDSBC may be accomplished. It provides emergency response to first aid, CPR, fire, and panic alarms, and handles disruptive or threatening influences. CSD also establishes general security guidelines, policies, and procedures to be followed by all entities within the Church. It also conducts physical security surveys and secures the parking facilities assigned to LDSBC. Church Security assists with public relations to employees, visitors, and students at LDSBC and maintains the twenty-four hour Global Security Operations Center (GSOC). 

Are the CSD folks POST-certified?  That is not my understanding.

As for the "bigotry," the conspiracy-mongering against a minority religious group seems to speak for itself.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Kenngo1969]

27 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I’m just here to support my team. Go RebelRedStormTrailblazers!

Man, the last thing I want to do is give offense to anyone, but ... Red Storm?    Red Storm?   (I guess Trailblazers is OK, but I'm surprised that the City of Portland and/or the National Basketball Association haven't sued DSU for Trademark infringement.)  I guess the campus has been invaded by a bunch of uber-illuminati Eastern Intellectuals who have found a large number of sympathizers among the student body.

Me?  Again, while the last thing I want to do is give offense to anyone, I'll always be a Rebel!

[Okrahomer]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I thought I read that Notre Dame's police force won a lawsuit with the same claim, but I cannot remember which thread it was on. Does anyone else remember or know?

See here.  ESPN had sued the University of Notre Dame PD for records related to athletes at the university.  The Indiana Supreme Court overturned the lower court.  Notre Dame PD did not have to release the records, because the PD was not part of any level of government.

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

See here.  ESPN had sued the University of Notre Dame PD for records related to athletes at the university.  The Indiana Supreme Court overturned the lower court.  Notre Dame PD did not have to release the records, because the PD was not part of any level of government.

Apparently, Utah is governed by a records act different from the one applicable in Indiana. 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Wow.  That's a less-than-fortunate acronym.  😀

Perhaps IANAA ("I Am Not An Attorney") would be better.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Perhaps, but IANAL is one that I have seen tossed around a lot.  Even here.  IANAA is something I've never seen before now.

Or are you one of those people who can't say the name of the seventh planet without giggling?

[carbon dioxide]

BYU police should run by the same rules that every police unit at other universities run by.  If not then it should give up having a police unit and let Provo police handle issues.

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Wow.  That's a less-than-fortunate acronym.  😀

Perhaps IANAA ("I Am Not An Attorney") would be better.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Why am I picturing Tobias Fünke?

Edited July 18, 2018 by jkwilliams

[FunOnlineMan]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Man, the last thing I want to do is give offense to anyone, but ... Red Storm?    Red Storm?   (I guess Trailblazers is OK, but I'm surprised that the City of Portland and/or the National Basketball Association haven't sued DSU for Trademark infringement.) 

I voted in the pick the new name contest. I was there when they announced that, despite the voting outcome, the new mascot was going to be a tornado with eyes. Nothing anyone says about my alma mater could ever hurt me more than what my alma mater has said to me. 

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I guess the campus has been invaded by a bunch of uber-illuminati Eastern Intellectuals who have found a large number of sympathizers among the student body.

I blame the Mormons. I have to. In support of my online team. 

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Me?  Again, while the last thing I want to do is give offense to anyone, I'll always be a Rebel!

UNLV

[provoman]

17 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

In 2014 they claimed immunity from lawsuits because they are a government agency.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=8532505579250107342&q="2014+Utah+27"&hl=en&as_sdt=6,45

 

17 hours ago, FearlessFixxer said:

Nice find.  I will read in a bit

Not exactly accurate, if that is the traffic direction case, then the claim was when working for Provo PD, BYU pd is a government entity

[nuclearfuels]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Everybody knows BYU is a theocracy.

It's our own little Vatican.  The Provo Vatican. Has a nice ring to it.

We just have to get them some of those nice Swiss guard outfits.

From your lips to God's ears.

I've asked many members of Congress what I'd need to send them to get Church HQ (sans Provo; my apologies) legally designated as sovereign

[Okrahomer]

18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Apparently, Utah is governed by a records act different from the one applicable in Indiana. 

Could be.  I'm no expert.  Their respective acronym's are definitely different:  APRA (Indiana) vs. GRAMA (Utah.)  Also, APRA "looks" to be about 18 pages shorter than GRAMA; but looks can be deceiving since APRA "appears" to be more densely printed.  So it's very difficult to judge how they differ--without actually reading them, of course.  But who in their right mind would read such things, let alone compare them??!!!

This may have already been discussed, but what jurisdiction will hear BYU's appeal.  Does it go to the Utah Supreme Court right away?

[rpn]

4 hours ago, DBMormon said:

This is messed up. In no other state would this dynamic play out. A

The poster who wrote the above has clearly not lived in other states and cities where the strong religious presence was something other than Mormon.  Such places exist in many states and cities where one faith is more established.   Utah is not at all unique, except that it is the Mormon faith involved.