mfbukowski Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 24 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Your attempt to trivialize this subject duly noted. You know, your avatar really is a great picture of you. You know we love you anyway! 💝 Hope you had a great mother's day!
smac97 Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Is it possible to trivialize a legal debate over whether a campus police department is subject to specific records laws in a state many of us do not live in? I mean.....who cares? I suppose some will defend the school because it tied to the church but I don’t really like BYU so what is the big concern? I think people who are in some way interested in or associated with the LDS Church are concerned about the Church having (very indirect) civil law enforcement authority, and/or that the BYU Police Department has misused its law enforcement authority to coordinate with the Honor Code Office. The Honor Code Office, in turn, enforces the Honor Code, which is a code of conduct based on the religious tenets of the LDS Church. In other words, we have the prospect of civil law enforcement authority being used, albeit in a somewhat circuitous way, to "enforce" the religious tenets of the LDS Church. This is, I think, understandably disconcerting for critics and opponents of the Church, and also some members of the Church who are attuned to civil liberties issues. So while it does not quite merit a Holy-Cow!-Shariah-Law-in-Utah-County!-type response, I can see why there is a concern about and interest in this story. Of course, BYU is not alone in having sworn police officers. Nearly 2 in 5 private colleges do the same. However, I think there are added concerns when a private school is affiliated with a religious group. BYU may well have a legitimate legal argument for its position, but the larger issues may still need some attention. Thanks, -Smac Edited May 15, 2018 by smac97 2
mfbukowski Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Is it possible to trivialize a legal debate over whether a campus police department is subject to specific records laws in a state many of us do not live in? I mean.....who cares? I suppose some will defend the school because it tied to the church but I don’t really like BYU so what is the big concern? 'Zactly. Edited May 15, 2018 by mfbukowski
Robert F. Smith Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 3 hours ago, ksfisher said: I think that BYU administrators understand that the records BYU police creates are not government records, and therefore not subject to the Government Records Access and Management Act. That issue will of course be subject to judicial decision. In the meantime, one must understand that agents of the govt produce govt records. BYU itself is a private institution, but the BYU Police Dept is not a private security force with powers only on campus, but instead State Police Officers employed by a private institution who have responsibilities both on and off campus. BYU chose to have them qualified as State Police Officers, thus giving them the necessary powers of arrest and making them able to enforce State law. As such they are agents of the State. The same applies to any contract law enforcement officers. This automatically makes their incident reports and arrest records subject to the same GRAMA rules applicable to any police dept, and for the same reasons. It is possible that BYU administrators just don't understand that, or that they understand only one principle of agency -- free agency. Either way they will receive their comeuppance. 2
smac97 Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said: That issue will of course be subject to judicial decision. In the meantime, one must understand that agents of the govt produce govt records. BYU itself is a private institution, but the BYU Police Dept is not a private security force with powers only on campus, but instead State Police Officers employed by a private institution who have responsibilities both on and off campus. BYU chose to have them qualified as State Police Officers, thus giving them the necessary powers of arrest and making them able to enforce State law. As such they are agents of the State. The same applies to any contract law enforcement officers. This automatically makes their incident reports and arrest records subject to the same GRAMA rules applicable to any police dept, and for the same reasons. It is possible that BYU administrators just don't understand that, or that they understand only one principle of agency -- free agency. Either way they will receive their comeuppance. I think the issue is a bit complex. For example, BYU just recently filed a supplement to their opposition to the Trib's Motion for Summary Judgment. The supplement, see below, is a 2012 letter to the BYU Police Department from the Utah Department of Public Safety stating that BYU Police is a "private entity," and thus not allowed access to the FBI's "Criminal History Record Information" system (see here for more info). So not totally cut and dry, I think. Thanks, -Smac 02_D_BYU Case - BYU Supp Memo in Opp.pdf 2
Atheist Mormon Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: You know, your avatar really is a great picture of you. You know we love you anyway! 💝 Hope you had a great mother's day! Thanks for the compliment but..... Avatar is a Rock...which shines differently to the people's perceptions.....
Atheist Mormon Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Is it possible to trivialize a legal debate over whether a campus police department is subject to specific records laws in a state many of us do not live in? I mean.....who cares? I suppose some will defend the school because it tied to the church but I don’t really like BYU so what is the big concern? You don't like BYU, you liar😄! I even like BYU.
The Nehor Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: You don't like BYU, you liar😄! I even like BYU. They turned down my application. That day I swore an undying vengeance against them and one day I will destroy that institution and anyone who ever worked there. I swore the pact by the eldritch entities that rule this Universe and must fulfill it or be devoured.
rongo Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: They turned down my application. That day I swore an undying vengeance against them and one day I will destroy that institution and anyone who ever worked there. I swore the pact by the eldritch entities that rule this Universe and must fulfill it or be devoured. The heartbreak, anguish, and rage on acceptance day this year was an eye-opener. There were multiple kids with 36 on the ACT (perfect score), sports, clubs, leadership, and GPA, whom BYU turned down. I really felt bad for the students and families in utter despair and disbelief. There wasn't any pressure on our part, because our son already had multiple full-ride offers (BYU admitted him, and offered him a half-tuition). It really seems like an awful lot is riding on the essays and the priesthood leader/CES endorsements now. You get zillions of applications from highly-accomplished students, so what separates the men from the boys seems to me to be whether you can set yourself apart from the field and stand out in a good way. If you have all the boxes checked but write generic, lackluster, run-of-the-mill essays, and your leaders aren't that jazzed about you, then you might not get in --- even with a perfect ACT. 1
smac97 Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 1 minute ago, rongo said: The heartbreak, anguish, and rage on acceptance day this year was an eye-opener. There were multiple kids with 36 on the ACT (perfect score), sports, clubs, leadership, and GPA, whom BYU turned down. I really felt bad for the students and families in utter despair and disbelief. There wasn't any pressure on our part, because our son already had multiple full-ride offers (BYU admitted him, and offered him a half-tuition). It really seems like an awful lot is riding on the essays and the priesthood leader/CES endorsements now. You get zillions of applications from highly-accomplished students, so what separates the men from the boys seems to me to be whether you can set yourself apart from the field and stand out in a good way. If you have all the boxes checked but write generic, lackluster, run-of-the-mill essays, and your leaders aren't that jazzed about you, then you might not get in --- even with a perfect ACT. Yes, the ecclesiastical endorsement is a big deal. Still, BYU has a "Freshman Applicant" acceptance rate of 53.4% (average GPA: 3.86 / average ACT/SAT: 29.5/1300). Transfer students, meanwhile, have a lower acceptance rate (43.6%), but also a lower GPA average (3.71). So high-GPA applicants probably end up with better odds if they go to school somewhere else for a year, and then apply (and then, if that fails, apply again after another year). In other words, if at first you don't succeed, try, try to apply as a transfer student. Thanks, -Smac 1
Storm Rider Posted May 15, 2018 Posted May 15, 2018 4 hours ago, stemelbow said: I'm not sure you have a safe assumption at all. But, the church doesn't really let anyone know how it spends money. So we'd just be assuming a few things here. Having had worked for both entities you mention I'm also not very confident there is any reason to assume the Church is more efficient with funds. hmm...yeah...I'm just not so sure you are making a very wise comment her, Mr Bu. 2 Yup, I have seen the lavish ways they build and decorate stake centers and ward houses. Then just take a look at those temples, man they just pour money into those things. And that hundreds and hundreds of school buildings they throw money at. Yup, a completely irresponsible manner with funds. And did you see the palaces those GA's live in? It is a dead giveaway that someone is just burning funds. Compare that with the spendthrift governmental organizations it is clear one is an absolute cash pig and the other is a model of efficiency. Yup, you convinced me with that towering argument of common sense.
Atheist Mormon Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: They turned down my application. That day I swore an undying vengeance against them and one day I will destroy that institution and anyone who ever worked there. I swore the pact by the eldritch entities that rule this Universe and must fulfill it or be devoured. WoW...I certainly understand your pain now.😣
rockpond Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 The way I see it, the BYU PD needs to comply with any records request regardless of which way this case is decided. Either they are a governmental agency and must comply with GRAMA or they are a private institution established, owned and funded by the Church. If the latter is true, than they ought to follow what an apostle declared just last November: "Just trust us, wherever you are in the world, and you share this message with anyone else who raises the question about the Church not being transparent. We’re as transparent as we know how to be in telling the truth. We have to do that; that’s the Lord’s way." They can follow GRAMA or they can follow the Lord's way. Either path leads to them having open records. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 (edited) Awhile back, there was concern over the fact that (if I remember my facts correctly) a Utah County Sheriff's deputy shared a report from his agency with the BYU Honor Code Office. I believe the officer retired rather than face any discipline. I think campus police and Honor Code issues can work both ways. I'm not sure I would defend BYU PD's effort to claim that it, as the police agency of a non-public entity, should not be subject to open-records laws in the same way that other law enforcement agencies are. However, given the Honor Code, I can envision a scenario in which a good argument could be made that BYU PD should not be subject to open records laws. I'm not saying I agree, necessarily, or that in the end, any such argument would win, but I don't see why such an argument wouldn't pass the Laugh Test or the Smell Test. Edited May 16, 2018 by Kenngo1969
Kenngo1969 Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, rockpond said: The way I see it, the BYU PD needs to comply with any records request regardless of which way this case is decided. Either they are a governmental agency and must comply with GRAMA or they are a private institution established, owned and funded by the Church. If the latter is true, than they ought to follow what an apostle declared just last November: "Just trust us, wherever you are in the world, and you share this message with anyone else who raises the question about the Church not being transparent. We’re as transparent as we know how to be in telling the truth. We have to do that; that’s the Lord’s way." They can follow GRAMA or they can follow the Lord's way. Either path leads to them having open records. I'm sure it was simply an oversight, Rockpond, but you forgot to source the quote. I'm sure that you appreciate my bringing it to your attention, and I look forward to seeing the source. Thanks in advance.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 6 hours ago, smac97 said: Yes, the ecclesiastical endorsement is a big deal. Still, BYU has a "Freshman Applicant" acceptance rate of 53.4% (average GPA: 3.86 / average ACT/SAT: 29.5/1300). Transfer students, meanwhile, have a lower acceptance rate (43.6%), but also a lower GPA average (3.71). So high-GPA applicants probably end up with better odds if they go to school somewhere else for a year, and then apply (and then, if that fails, apply again after another year). In other words, if at first you don't succeed, try, try to apply as a transfer student. Thanks, -Smac How many years did Daniel "Rudy" Ruettiger go to Holy Cross before he finally got into Notre Dame?
rockpond Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 19 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: I'm sure it was simply an oversight, Rockpond, but you forgot to source the quote. I'm sure that you appreciate my bringing it to your attention, and I look forward to seeing the source. Thanks in advance. Elder Ballard, Face to Face, Nov 2017.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 42 minutes ago, rockpond said: ... They can follow GRAMA or they can follow the Lord's way. Either path leads to them having open records. Thanks for sourcing the quote. That wasn't so hard, was it? Now, as to the foregoing assertion, you think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should have to open its records concerning who it disciplines, how, and why? Arguably, BYU PD opening its records potentially could create problems for the Church of Jesus Christ in disclosing matters which otherwise would be confidential. I realize that you, as someone who is Pure As The Driven Snow, would have nary a worry about such a thing if you were a BYU student, but, Alas!, the reputations of some of the rest of us aren't quite so pristine!
rockpond Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Thanks for sourcing the quote. That wasn't so hard, was it? In my original post identified it as an apostle speaking last November. It's not as if I was trying to hid the source. You can drop the patronizing comments. 20 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Now, as to the foregoing assertion, you think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should have to open its records concerning who it disciplines, how, and why? Arguably, BYU PD opening its records potentially could create problems for the Church of Jesus Christ in disclosing matters which otherwise would be confidential. I realize that you, as someone who is Pure As The Driven Snow, would have nary a worry about such a thing if you were a BYU student, but, Alas!, the reputations of some of the rest of us aren't quite so pristine! I didn't say that the church should open its records concerning anyone it disciplines. I do think the BYU PD should release ALL of the records regarding the Bishop case per the GRAMA requests even if they are not required to by law. If being honest and transparent is the Lord's way, as Elder Ballard said, than our church owned and operated police department ought not try to hide behind a judge's decision to avoid compliance with valid freedom of information requests. Do you disagree? 1
bsjkki Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 7 hours ago, rongo said: The heartbreak, anguish, and rage on acceptance day this year was an eye-opener. There were multiple kids with 36 on the ACT (perfect score), sports, clubs, leadership, and GPA, whom BYU turned down. I really felt bad for the students and families in utter despair and disbelief. There wasn't any pressure on our part, because our son already had multiple full-ride offers (BYU admitted him, and offered him a half-tuition). It really seems like an awful lot is riding on the essays and the priesthood leader/CES endorsements now. You get zillions of applications from highly-accomplished students, so what separates the men from the boys seems to me to be whether you can set yourself apart from the field and stand out in a good way. If you have all the boxes checked but write generic, lackluster, run-of-the-mill essays, and your leaders aren't that jazzed about you, then you might not get in --- even with a perfect ACT. This just made me very happy my highly accomplished student chose to attend school elsewhere. I could not even talk her into applying to BYU and I don’t think she would thrive in that intensely competitive environment. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, rockpond said: In my original post identified it as an apostle speaking last November. It's not as if I was trying to hid the source. You can drop the patronizing comments. I didn't say that the church should open its records concerning anyone it disciplines. I do think the BYU PD should release ALL of the records regarding the Bishop case per the GRAMA requests even if they are not required to by law. If being honest and transparent is the Lord's way, as Elder Ballard said, than our church owned and operated police department ought not try to hide behind a judge's decision to avoid compliance with valid freedom of information requests. Do you disagree? The way you've framed the question makes me wonder if you're truly interested in dialoguing in good faith. It strikes me as a "Have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife?" sort of question. And your accusation that BYU PD is simply attempting to "hide behind a judge's decision" imputes bad faith to the University and to the Department when, as I and others have already noted, there are genuine legal issues in play here about which reasonable minds can, in good conscience and good faith, differ. I don't think the issues are as simple as you're attempting to make them out to be. The edict contained in the Twelfth Article of Faith, various provisions found in Doctrine and Covenants 134, and other tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ which may have relevance to the matter should apply just as much whether the "law of the land" is a judge's decision determining GRAMA's scope or whether it is the GRAMA statute itself. And, while slippery-slope arguments are disfavored by the legally and logically erudite, one cannot exit a ride in the middle: While, as I've already said, if I were a judge hearing the case, I'm not sure I would rule in BYU's favor, I can see the potential for problems developing when information contained in the police reports that so many BYU detractors are screaming ought to be made publicly available is combined with grist gleaned from the Ward Rumor Mill or with information obtained from someone who is not as discreet as he ought to be about sensitive proceedings, thus exposing information which really is nobody else's business to public scrutiny ... when the whole thing started because people thought there was no good reason to exempt BYU PD from GRAMA's requirements in the first place. Edited May 16, 2018 by Kenngo1969
Kenngo1969 Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 26 minutes ago, rockpond said: ... I didn't say that the church should open its records concerning anyone it disciplines. ... OK, but subjecting BYU PD to GRAMA, combined with the Ward Rumor Mill or with someone who is not as circumspect as he should be regarding sensitive proceedings might have exactly that result.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 29 minutes ago, rockpond said: In my original post identified it as an apostle speaking last November. It's not as if I was trying to hid the source. You can drop the patronizing comments. ... OK. I've had my share of disagreements with you over the years, but before now, I've never detected any kind of malice underlying any of our exchanges. Where's the Lovable Little Fuzzball we've all become so accustomed to seeing?
Kenngo1969 Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 1 hour ago, rockpond said: ... They can follow GRAMA or they can follow the Lord's way. Either path leads to them having open records. With due respect, that's a false dichotomy. If that choice really were as clear as you're making it out to be, you wouldn't have reasonable minds differing with you on this thread.
The Nehor Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 8 hours ago, rongo said: The heartbreak, anguish, and rage on acceptance day this year was an eye-opener. There were multiple kids with 36 on the ACT (perfect score), sports, clubs, leadership, and GPA, whom BYU turned down. I really felt bad for the students and families in utter despair and disbelief. There wasn't any pressure on our part, because our son already had multiple full-ride offers (BYU admitted him, and offered him a half-tuition). It really seems like an awful lot is riding on the essays and the priesthood leader/CES endorsements now. You get zillions of applications from highly-accomplished students, so what separates the men from the boys seems to me to be whether you can set yourself apart from the field and stand out in a good way. If you have all the boxes checked but write generic, lackluster, run-of-the-mill essays, and your leaders aren't that jazzed about you, then you might not get in --- even with a perfect ACT. Okay, that is horrible. I was joking. I did apply and I was turned down but I was not hurt really. I disliked the idea of the honor code even back then. Not because I disagreed with the tenets but it seemed like a kind of even further extended childhood to me. I feel bad for those who want to to go though and cannot.
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