I feel like we all should agree on this one regardless of where we are with the truth claims of the Church

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

OK, but subjecting BYU PD to GRAMA, combined with the Ward Rumor Mill or with someone who is not as circumspect as he should be regarding sensitive proceedings might have exactly that result.

Unless they are also used for investigating no criminal Honor Code violations, then anything released would be just the same if those involved lived elsewhere and their city's police were subject to GRAMA, correct?

If so, not seeing a problem.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The way you've framed the question makes me wonder if you're truly interested in dialoguing in good faith.  It strikes me as a  "Have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife?" sort of question.  And your accusation that BYU PD is simply attempting to "hide behind a judge's decision" imputes bad faith to the University and to the Department when, as I and others have already noted, there are genuine legal issues in play here about which reasonable minds can, in good conscience and good faith, differ.  I don't think the issues are as simple as you're attempting to make them out to be.  The edict contained in the Twelfth Article of Faith, various provisions found in Doctrine and Covenants 134, and other tenets of the Church of Jesus Christ which may have relevance to the matter should apply just as much whether the "law of the land" is a judge's decision determining GRAMA's scope or whether it is the GRAMA statute itself.

And, while slippery-slope arguments are disfavored by the legally and logically erudite, one cannot exit a ride in the middle: While, as I've already said, if I were a judge hearing the case, I'm not sure I would rule in BYU's favor, I can see the potential for problems developing when information contained in the police reports that so many BYU detractors are screaming ought to be made publicly available is combined with grist gleaned from the Ward Rumor Mill or with information obtained from someone who is not as discreet as he ought to be about sensitive proceedings, thus exposing information which really is nobody else's business to public scrutiny ... when the whole thing started because people thought there was no good reason to exempt BYU PD from GRAMA's requirements in the first place.

I'll rephrase:  Do you think that BYU PD should or should not release all documents/recordings (personal identifying info redacted) related to the Joseph Bishop case to the public regardless of what is decided regarding GRAMA applicability to the BYU PD?

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

OK, but subjecting BYU PD to GRAMA, combined with the Ward Rumor Mill or with someone who is not as circumspect as he should be regarding sensitive proceedings might have exactly that result.

BYU PD doesn't get involved in disciplinary councils.  Not relevant.

[rockpond]

55 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

With due respect, that's a false dichotomy.  If that choice really were as clear as you're making it out to be, you wouldn't have reasonable minds differing with you on this thread.

Incorrect.  I think that there are reasonable minds who disagree with Elder Ballard's assertion.  You appear to be one of those as you think there are good reasons for BYU PD to not be fully transparent.

[california boy]

15 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I'm thinking I'm on the side of private institutions having the right to keep their records private.  BYU police is not publicly funded so I don't see that the law has the same application as it does with a public institution.

The GR is GRAMA stands for Government Records.  If the public has the right to access BYU police records that would mean that BYU police was a government agency, which they are not.

If a private organization wants to keep it's records private, then they should sever all government ties and not act as their agents.  They should not be able to have access to government data bases.  You have to decide.  Do you want to be a private police force with no state authority, or do you want the state bestowed powers and access of a government police force.  If you choose the former, then by all means, you are entitled to keep your records private.  If you choose the latter, and you are acting as agents for the state, then you should be required to follow the same rules the public requires of such state agents.

[Robert F. Smith]

17 hours ago, provoman said:

Private institutions should not be allowed to have a private police force

Each state handles this matter differently, but private universities do need to have police on campus.  Until just recently, the University of Southern California had a police force without full state police powers.  That situation has now been rectified, as described in a blog I just read:

Quote

In 2017 USC DPS officers moved to sworn peace officer status as Level I Reserve LAPD Police Officers under a new state law passed in 2016 that added Penal Code 830.75. The law now explicitly allows a person regularly employed as a security officer for a private university/college to be deputized or appointed as a reserve deputy or officer by a sheriff or chief of police if they have completed the basic training course (over 664 hours) for deputy sheriffs and police officers prescribed by California's Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training. The authority of a person designated as a peace officer under this law extends to any place in the state and is applicable only while on duty. Stanford and University of the Pacific had been doing this for several years, however, there was some question if this practice was really allowed under state law. So the new law actually clarifies that this is legal. The language is below...Penal Code 830.75

(a) Notwithstanding subdivision (b) of Section 830.7, a person regularly employed as a security officer for an independent institution of higher education recognized under subdivision (b) of Section 66010 of the Education Code may be deputized or appointed by the sheriff or the chief of police of the jurisdiction in which the institution is located as a reserve deputy or officer pursuant to Section 830.6, notwithstanding that he or she is compensated by the institution of higher education or that the assigned specific law enforcement functions and duties may be of a recurring or continuous nature, if both of the following requirements are met:

(1) The person meets the requirements specified in paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section 832.6.

(2) The institution of higher education and the appropriate local law enforcement agency have entered into a memorandum of understanding.

(b) The authority of a person designated as a peace officer pursuant to this section extends to any place in the state and applies only while he or she is engaged in the performance of his or her assigned duties for his or her institution of higher education pursuant to the memorandum entered into pursuant to paragraph (2) of subdivision (a). The primary duty of a person designated as a peace officer pursuant to this section shall be the enforcement of the law upon the campuses of his or her institution of higher education and within one mile of the exterior of those campuses, and in or about other grounds and properties owned, operated, controlled, or administered by that institution of higher education.

(c) Vehicles owned by an independent institution of higher education that are specifically designated for use by persons designated as peace officers pursuant to this section shall be deemed authorized emergency vehicles for all purposes of the law within the institution’s jurisdiction.

Simply for practical reasons, something of this sort must be done for every private university.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'll rephrase:  Do you think that BYU PD should or should not release all documents/recordings (personal identifying info redacted) related to the Joseph Bishop case to the public regardless of what is decided regarding GRAMA applicability to the BYU PD?

All GRAMA requests in the State of Utah are limited in scope and can be redacted in order to prevent violations of privacy.  However, the public always has a legitimate interest in knowing about criminal activity in their community, and the police may not keep such activity secret.  Convicted criminals do not have a right to privacy when it comes to the details of their crimes or their criminal records.  Everything from booking photos to dashcam videos may be accessed.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Awhile back, there was concern over the fact that (if I remember my facts correctly) a Utah County Sheriff's deputy shared a report from his agency with the BYU Honor Code Office.  I believe the officer retired rather than face any discipline. 

I think campus police and Honor Code issues can work both ways.  I'm not sure I would defend BYU PD's effort to claim that it, as the police agency of a non-public entity, should not be subject to open-records laws in the same way that other law enforcement agencies are. 

However, given the Honor Code, I can envision a scenario in which a good argument could be made that BYU PD should not be subject to open records laws.  I'm not saying I agree, necessarily, or that in the end, any such argument would win, but I don't see why such an argument wouldn't pass the Laugh Test or the Smell Test.

 

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Thanks for sourcing the quote.  That wasn't so hard, was it?  

Now, as to the foregoing assertion, you think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should have to open its records concerning who it disciplines, how, and why?  Arguably, BYU PD opening its records potentially could create problems for the Church of Jesus Christ in disclosing matters which otherwise would be confidential.  I realize that you, as someone who is Pure As The Driven Snow, would have nary a worry about such a thing if you were a BYU student, but, Alas!, the reputations of some of the rest of us aren't quite so pristine!  

The BYU Honor Code office has no connection to BYU PD.  A record request made to BYU PD would not entail disclosure of Honor Code violations and would not create problems for the LDS Church.  All GRAMA requests can be and are redacted to protect legitimate privacy concerns.

[Kenngo1969]

6 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'll rephrase:  Do you think that BYU PD should or should not release all documents/recordings (personal identifying info redacted) related to the Joseph Bishop case to the public regardless of what is decided regarding GRAMA applicability to the BYU PD?

There are other issues related to the Joseph Bishop case which make it a less-than-ideal test case for any issues relating to whether BYU or BYU PD should be fully subject to GRAMA.

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

The BYU Honor Code office has no connection to BYU PD.  A record request made to BYU PD would not entail disclosure of Honor Code violations and would not create problems for the LDS Church.  All GRAMA requests can be and are redacted to protect legitimate privacy concerns.

Be that as it may, there has already been one case in which a then-sworn law enforcement officer (while he was not an officer for BYU PD) turned law enforcement information over to the BYU Honor Code office.  Saying it shouldn't happen, that it rarely happens, or that there are safeguards in place which are supposed to prevent it from happening is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't happen.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, rockpond said:

BYU PD doesn't get involved in disciplinary councils.  Not relevant.

There has already been one case in which a then-sworn law enforcement officer (while he was not employed by BYU PD) turned law enforcement information over to the BYU Honor Code Office.  Saying that it shouldn't happen, that it rarely happens, or that there are safeguards in place which are supposed to prevent it from happening is not the same thing as saying that it never happens.

P.S. This will be my last post on the thread.  Whenever Robert F. Smith shows up on a thread  implicitly proclaiming himself to be The Absolute Authority on All Things Relating to Law and to Law Enforcement, I've found that the utility of other people participating on that thread (including sworn law enforcement officers and lawyers, ironically) correspondingly decreases.  Hope you all have a great day!   

Edited May 16, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Duncan]

So, slightly or mostly confused here but if you broke the law at BYU and their police nabbed you does that record go with you when you leave BYU?

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

There are other issues related to the Joseph Bishop case which make it a less-than-ideal test case for any issues relating to whether BYU or BYU PD should be fully subject to GRAMA.

The lawsuit was filed in 2016, so I don't believe it has anything to do with the Bishop case.  I may be wrong and they allow tacking stuff on.

[rongo]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Okay, that is horrible.

I was joking. I did apply and I was turned down but I was not hurt really. I disliked the idea of the honor code even back then. Not because I disagreed with the tenets but it seemed like a kind of even further extended childhood to me.

I feel bad for those who want to to go though and cannot.  

I had a wonderful experience at BYU in the late 1990s. It's changed quite a bit, though, and the shine is off the apple for me (although I still am a BYU sports fan). My son ended up taking one of his full-ride offers. It's pretty hard to turn down completely free, and at BYU we still would have been on the hook for half tuition (not that expensive in comparison to state schools, but still), plus room and board. Which BYU is not cheap with. When I went there, my five roommates and I paid $85 per month. Now, you can't get less than $250/$300 off campus. On campus is a mint! Plus, he needs to earn the rest of his mission money, which is a lot easier to do when you aren't paying anything for school.  

There's also something to being wanted, and it being made perfectly clear that you're wanted! BYU didn't notify of acceptance until early March, and didn't notify about scholarships until almost May. It's like they want to force students to choose them at the expense of their other offers, not even knowing if you will get anything from them. 

We're excited! His roommate in the honors dorm is from a private Lutheran school in California, and is an NRA certified gun instructor. So, check off the "don't get a flaming liberal" box . . .  

[Kenngo1969]

9 minutes ago, Duncan said:

So, slightly or mostly confused here but if you broke the law at BYU and their police nabbed you does that record go with you when you leave BYU?

Breaking my previously-announced vow of silence on the thread [Ahem!] ... Perhaps Robert F. Smith will deign to answer your question.   The answer to your question is, of course, "It depends."   If you're a snot-nosed juvenile freshman (under 18 years of age) those records usually are sealed.  If, however, you're old enough to know better but you do it anyway and it comes to the attention of law enforcement and to the courts ... if, for example, you ... Heaven forbid!  ... receive a misdemeanor citation or if officers invite you to wear (really, they insist that you wear) that special "jewelry" ... you know, those "bracelets" they carry around with them ... you will very likely end up appearing either in Provo Justice Court (for Class B or C misdemeanors) or in Utah's Fourth District Court (for Class A misdemeanors and felonies ).  The State, not BYU, maintains those records, and yes, they do follow you after you leave BYU.

 

 

[rongo]

15 minutes ago, rongo said:

My son ended up taking one of his full-ride offers.

This just hit the wires. He's the one with the Mormon name . . .  

http://www.inmaricopa.com/senior-spotlights-some-of-maricopas-top-graduates/

The one going to West Point is also LDS (she chose that over the Naval Academy). And Britney Montgomery has an *amazing* voice. She may actually make it to Broadway! The salutatorian and my son are good friends, and I think he may pass him on points in June, once final grades post (he took 9 AP classes to my son's 7 --- but he is welcome to AP Chemistry and AP Calculus!).

Edited May 16, 2018 by rongo

[Kenngo1969]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

The lawsuit was filed in 2016, so I don't believe it has anything to do with the Bishop case.  I may be wrong and they allow tacking stuff on.

[LURK MODE=OFF]Don't tell me ... I'm not the one who brought it up!  [LURK MODE=ON]

[Kenngo1969]

 

33 minutes ago, rongo said:

This just hit the wires. He's the one with the Mormon name . . .  

http://www.inmaricopa.com/senior-spotlights-some-of-maricopas-top-graduates/

Heh.  Yeah, that's really hard to figure out ... He's the one who's your spitting image!   Gotta love "Ol' Port"!  

https://www.bluffdale.com/451/Orin-Porter-Rockwell

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Rockwell

P.S.: I keep breaking my vow of silence! 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

There has already been one case in which a then-sworn law enforcement officer (while he was not employed by BYU PD) turned law enforcement information over to the BYU Honor Code Office.  Saying that it shouldn't happen, that it rarely happens, or that there are safeguards in place which are supposed to prevent it from happening is not the same thing as saying that it never happens.

Anyone can turn over info the the BYU honor code office.  Not sure what that has to do with our discussion.

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

There are other issues related to the Joseph Bishop case which make it a less-than-ideal test case for any issues relating to whether BYU or BYU PD should be fully subject to GRAMA.

That wasn't the question.

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Breaking my previously-announced vow of silence on the thread [Ahem!] ... Perhaps Robert F. Smith will deign to answer your question.   The answer to your question is, of course, "It depends."   If you're a snot-nosed juvenile freshman (under 18 years of age) those records usually are sealed.  If, however, you're old enough to know better but you do it anyway and it comes to the attention of law enforcement and to the courts ... if, for example, you ... Heaven forbid!  ... receive a misdemeanor citation or if officers invite you to wear (really, they insist that you wear) that special "jewelry" ... you know, those "bracelets" they carry around with them ... you will very likely end up appearing either in Provo Justice Court (for Class B or C misdemeanors) or in Utah's Fourth District Court (for Class A misdemeanors and felonies ).  The State, not BYU, maintains those records, and yes, they do follow you after you leave BYU.

 

 

I get what you are saying, I guess for me I would side with the Trib then, if you do something you shouldn't whilst a BYU student then that record follows you, it should be open to the public, if I am understanding this case correctly! or at least certain segments of the public, like background checks for jobs, law enforcement, but journalists or a stranger walking in off the street and wants to know if their neighbour was a good at BYU in 1994, I don't know!

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Be that as it may, there has already been one case in which a then-sworn law enforcement officer (while he was not an officer for BYU PD) turned law enforcement information over to the BYU Honor Code office.  Saying it shouldn't happen, that it rarely happens, or that there are safeguards in place which are supposed to prevent it from happening is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't happen.

Correct.  I don't know what that law enforcement officer was thinking, and I have heard that he resigned to avoid disciplinary action.  Such things can happen in any agency, but procedures now in place at BYU would not permit a repetition of that mistake.  Blaming the victim is now apparently against the rules.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I get what you are saying, I guess for me I would side with the Trib then, if you do something you shouldn't whilst a BYU student then that record follows you, it should be open to the public, if I am understanding this case correctly! or at least certain segments of the public, like background checks for jobs, law enforcement, but journalists or a stranger walking in off the street and wants to know if their neighbour was a good at BYU in 1994, I don't know!

Sensitive jobs will run full background checks, and may require that you sign a waiver allowing access to your confidential records of whatever kind -- including juvenile records. This would not include ecclesiastical records, which would include Honor Code violations which do not involve law enforcement.  Being a good boy at BYU entails far more than criminal violations.

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I had a wonderful experience at BYU in the late 1990s. It's changed quite a bit, though, and the shine is off the apple for me (although I still am a BYU sports fan). My son ended up taking one of his full-ride offers. It's pretty hard to turn down completely free, and at BYU we still would have been on the hook for half tuition (not that expensive in comparison to state schools, but still), plus room and board. Which BYU is not cheap with. When I went there, my five roommates and I paid $85 per month. Now, you can't get less than $250/$300 off campus. On campus is a mint! Plus, he needs to earn the rest of his mission money, which is a lot easier to do when you aren't paying anything for school.  

There's also something to being wanted, and it being made perfectly clear that you're wanted! BYU didn't notify of acceptance until early March, and didn't notify about scholarships until almost May. It's like they want to force students to choose them at the expense of their other offers, not even knowing if you will get anything from them. 

We're excited! His roommate in the honors dorm is from a private Lutheran school in California, and is an NRA certified gun instructor. So, check off the "don't get a flaming liberal" box . . .  

BYU has a never ending supply of students who want to go there so I don't think they feel the need to recruit and I don't think they necessarily take care of their students with effective advising etc... I've heard some horror stories. Plus, once you get into BYU can you then get into your major? I'm not sure attending BYU these days would be worth the stress. I was surprised my daughter received a recuitment letter in the mail from them...anyone want a BYU bumper sticker? Congratulations on your sons accomplishments! I was somewhat floored that students with perfect ACT's and high GPA's and the 'Mormon" resume would be rejected. That is shocking. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by bsjkki

[rongo]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

BYU has a never ending supply of students who want to go there so I don't think they feel the need to recruit and I don't think they necessarily take care of their students with effective advising etc... I've heard some horror stories. Plus, once you get into BYU can you then get into your major? I'm not sure attending these days would be worth the stress. I was surprised my daughter even received a recuitment letter in the mail from them...anyone want a BYU bumper sticker?

Like airlines, BYU overbooks in admissions, knowing that there will be attrition in acceptance of the offer of admission. When I asked about my son and nephew (both of whom declined the offer and accepted other offers), I was told that this does not open up openings for students who were rejected (I was thinking about the families who were literally shattered and heartbroken). The decision is final, and they don't revisit "the next ones on the list" in the event of offers being declined. I would think that thousands are, because the students vying to get into BYU usually have attractive offers from other schools. I found that interesting. I was hoping that our declinings would open up other spots.