Questions about Excommunication

[JAHS]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hate to even think about it but you're right, and I'm glad it's hit the internet, time to shed light on it. And warn all.

The internet also has no doubt contributed to the immediate access of this material making it easier for someone with this weakness to feed the appetite and cause it to grow. 

[MorningStar]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

You can probably find out his birth date, and with that you can get his criminal history information (conviction data only) for a nominal fee. I am assuming that he was convicted in Washington state, right?  

Try this: https://fortress.wa.gov/wsp/watch/

Once you have that information, you may be able to determine if he is still under supervision by the Dept of Corrections.  In any case, you can contact DOC to find out if it is possible to discover if he is under supervision (likely, I think), what are the conditions of his supervision, and who his community corrections officer is.  If this gent is violating the conditions of his release (assuming he has not fulfilled his offender obligations), then his CCO will be interested to hear it.  Contact info for DOC can be found here: http://doc.wa.gov/about/contact.htm    I'd suggest sending an email or a phone call explaining the situation.

I have some familiarity with WSP and DOC, having worked as a computer programmer for both agencies in the past.  Unfortunately, my old contacts at either agency are long retired or have moved on, or else I'd be able to refer you to individuals.

Mike

Thank you. Yes, he was convicted here. 

[rpn]

My guess is that because music doesn't include expression that might have impact, and because one needn't be a member to hold a music calling, it is thought of differently.   My guess is that your interest in that is not really about excommunication etiquette or expectation,  but about potentially protecting people who may not know his history.   But that is a call that the bishop gets to make.  So I'd suggest that you make sure the bishop knows that history (follow up with a letter in writing confirming that you've shared it /keep a copy of it by mailing one back to yourself (which you simply take a photo of your mailing both letters and put that photo with your unopened delivered copy for as long as you want to keep it), at the same time you mail the one to the bishop--- if the bishop doesn't assure enough protection, then your letter may at least help someone get recourse.

I get how someone might never agree to be part of his team in any way.   (I less get how what he is accused of puts an adult at risk in any way, except perhaps for a assault survivor.) 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

 (I less get how what he is accused of puts an adult at risk in any way, except perhaps for a assault survivor.) 

Many pedophiles are attracted to adults as well, they just have stronger attractions to children (and I would describe this guy as a child abuser to differentiate from those who have the attraction but never consider acting on it).  So I do not think him being accused of crimes against children means he will never assault an adult.

http://www.cbc.ca/firsthand/m_features/four-misconceptions-about-pedophiles

Edited July 11, 2018 by Calm

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

My guess is that because music doesn't include expression that might have impact, and because one needn't be a member to hold a music calling, it is thought of differently.   My guess is that your interest in that is not really about excommunication etiquette or expectation,  but about potentially protecting people who may not know his history.   But that is a call that the bishop gets to make.  So I'd suggest that you make sure the bishop knows that history (follow up with a letter in writing confirming that you've shared it /keep a copy of it by mailing one back to yourself (which you simply take a photo of your mailing both letters and put that photo with your unopened delivered copy for as long as you want to keep it), at the same time you mail the one to the bishop--- if the bishop doesn't assure enough protection, then your letter may at least help someone get recourse.

I get how someone might never agree to be part of his team in any way.   (I less get how what he is accused of puts an adult at risk in any way, except perhaps for a assault survivor.) 

The bishop knows and I recently asked him to tell the man to stop touching all women in the ward because he has touched me unnecessarily several times.  He can tell me my son sings well without reaching out and touching me. I've been stuck in multiple situations where he takes a special interest in me and I just don't want to be alone with him. I don't want him asking questions about my family - most especially my daughters. But it just occurred to me, "Why would an excommunicated person get to do musical numbers when they can't participate in any other way?" 

I'm not afraid he's going to sexually assault me in the chapel. It just causes me great anxiety being around him and being alone with him would be a nightmare and often I have to bring my daughters to rehearse with me. Most importantly, I had a prompting to Google him and I know it's because I needed to set boundaries with him. I know many women who bring small children with them to rehearse and yes, it's a worry when they have no clue what he's done. They just find him odd. 

[rpn]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

  So I do not think him being accused of crimes against children means he will never assault an adult.

http://www.cbc.ca/firsthand/m_features/four-misconceptions-about-pedophiles

But he's accused of possessing inappropriate photos, not assault in any way, if I understood correctly.

Yes, someone who has that criminal record touching people without their explicit consent seems pretty clueless about what reactions to that criminal history might be, at the least.

Edited July 11, 2018 by rpn

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

But he's accused of possessing inappropriate photos, not assault in any way, if I understood correctly.

Yes, someone who has that criminal record touching people without their explicit consent seems pretty clueless about what reactions to that criminal history might be, at the least.

Also arranging online to meet them in person.  That and some of the pictures showed the children being abused are major red flags for me.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Calm

[Guest]

On July 8, 2018 at 7:08 PM, MorningStar said:

I referred to this as "child images" because the filter blocked it. 

That is OK, I got it and totally agree with your take on the matter. 

[MorningStar]

6 hours ago, rpn said:

But he's accused of possessing inappropriate photos, not assault in any way, if I understood correctly.

Yes, someone who has that criminal record touching people without their explicit consent seems pretty clueless about what reactions to that criminal history might be, at the least.

He tried to meet up with a minor online and apparently failed. And with all of the new people in the ward, he assumes we don't know. And I don't think most people do anymore. 

[MorningStar]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Also arranging online to meet them in person.  That and some of the pictures showed the children being abused are major red flags for me.

Exactly. Two-year-olds being abused. If he can recover from this, there's no telling how long that will take. 

[MorningStar]

35 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

That is OK, I got it and totally agree with your take on the matter. 

Thank you. Even if I didn't know, I would avoid that guy like the plague. I have horrible feelings around him. I was abused by an extended relative when I was 3 during a family Christmas party. My mom caught him. I just can't deal with this kind of thing. 

[Anijen]

MorningStar, check out your states "grooming" laws. Pedifiles almost always "groom" the child and his/her parents so that they gain their trust. see wikipedia definition here.

The touching is probably his efforts to gain your trust. Kudos to you for not falling for it. I think letting him know exactly how you feel and that you are going to tell others also is a good idea. One reason a person is excommunicated is also to protect the church. There is absolutely nothing wrong with following your intuition and protecting yourself and family, even from his grooming tendencies.

Forgiveness is important even mandatory, but that does not take away the wisdom to protect. In the long run, if he is truly penitent then eventually trust will be regained but to do so he will have to know that his touching you is not a way for that to begin. So, yes, tell him exactly how you feel.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Thank you. Even if I didn't know, I would avoid that guy like the plague. I have horrible feelings around him. I was abused by an extended relative when I was 3 during a family Christmas party. My mom caught him. I just can't deal with this kind of thing. 

That is a sad two way road, those abused can sense and identify these types of predators, and predators can sense those who have been abused. 

[MorningStar]

3 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

That is a sad two way road, those abused can sense and identify these types of predators, and predators can sense those who have been abused. 

Yes, my best friend says my "creepometer" works very well. 

[MorningStar]

3 hours ago, Anijen said:

MorningStar, check out your states "grooming" laws. Pedifiles almost always "groom" the child and his/her parents so that they gain their trust. see wikipedia definition here.

The touching is probably his efforts to gain your trust. Kudos to you for not falling for it. I think letting him know exactly how you feel and that you are going to tell others also is a good idea. One reason a person is excommunicated is also to protect the church. There is absolutely nothing wrong with following your intuition and protecting yourself and family, even from his grooming tendencies.

Forgiveness is important even mandatory, but that does not take away the wisdom to protect. In the long run, if he is truly penitent then eventually trust will be regained but to do so he will have to know that his touching you is not a way for that to begin. So, yes, tell him exactly how you feel.

Thank you. ❤️ Next time I'm saying something and I don't care if there are people around. The bishop talked to him and that should have been the end of the touching. 

[mrmarklin]

MS, next time he touches you should scream and call him out on it.  Don't give a millimeter.  I'm serious about this.  The guy is a pervert.

[strappinglad]

You could always go to the pulpit at the next F&T meeting and express your thankfulness for the example that Bro. X has set in overcoming his addiction to...and lay it all out. . Yes I am not serious.... well, just bit.

[Avatar4321]

He isn’t allowed to pray, why would he be allowed to preform music? After all the scriptures clearly state that the song of the righteous is a prayer to God

[Avatar4321]

On 7/10/2018 at 7:32 PM, MorningStar said:

The bishop knows and I recently asked him to tell the man to stop touching all women in the ward because he has touched me unnecessarily several times.  He can tell me my son sings well without reaching out and touching me. I've been stuck in multiple situations where he takes a special interest in me and I just don't want to be alone with him. I don't want him asking questions about my family - most especially my daughters. But it just occurred to me, "Why would an excommunicated person get to do musical numbers when they can't participate in any other way?" 

I'm not afraid he's going to sexually assault me in the chapel. It just causes me great anxiety being around him and being alone with him would be a nightmare and often I have to bring my daughters to rehearse with me. Most importantly, I had a prompting to Google him and I know it's because I needed to set boundaries with him. I know many women who bring small children with them to rehearse and yes, it's a worry when they have no clue what he's done. They just find him odd. 

That’s totally creepy 

[MorningStar]

I talked to the music chair about it and she acknowledged that she knows his history and she could tell I didn't want to play for him. I said, "Here's the problem. Any pianist who doesn't know what he did might bring their small children to rehearse and then those children think that their mom believes he's a safe person. And then later she finds out and feels violated that she was asked to play for him even though you knew about what he did. I don't understand why he's allowed to perform anyway because he's excommunicated." She actually didn't know he's excommunicated, but if he ever does get rebaptized, it's still not cool to ask mothers of young children to accompany him. She was very understanding and she said she's given him a lot of leeway because technically the clarinet shouldn't be played in sacrament anyway. I don't care about that so much. Just don't put women in that position! 

Then last night I got a message from my brother apologizing for something he thought hurt me. His job has caused him to have anxiety around young children and that's why he refused to hold my daughter after she was born. Makes me so angry that anyone should have to look at that, thanks to people like the guy in ward. 😠  Can the Second Coming happen already? I'm so done. 

[Jeanne]

On 7/13/2018 at 5:18 PM, strappinglad said:

You could always go to the pulpit at the next F&T meeting and express your thankfulness for the example that Bro. X has set in overcoming his addiction to...and lay it all out. . Yes I am not serious.... well, just bit.

Hey...I like it!!!

[Stargazer]

On 7/15/2018 at 12:14 AM, MorningStar said:

Can the Second Coming happen already? I'm so done. 

No, MS, I'm afraid things are going to get a lot worse before that happens.  Just brace yourself, and endure.  You'll be fine in the end!

[MorningStar]

Today when we got to church, he was entering the door with his wife, so I hung back a bit. Finally went into the chapel and he seemed to be heading towards his seat, so I thought I could sneak past him from behind to go to the other side, but he suddenly turned around, touched my shoulder again, motioned to my 10-year-old daughter, and said, "You can tell this one is yours because she looks just like you." My husband was behind him at this point and couldn't hear what he said, but I was looking at him like "Please do something!" I gathered both of my girls and ushered them to the opposite side of the chapel. Bishop was out of town today, but I'm talking to him as soon as he gets back. 

Told my daughter during sacrament that she is not to stop and talk to that guy ever - keep walking. I just want to go back to my old ward.  

[Tacenda]

13 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Today when we got to church, he was entering the door with his wife, so I hung back a bit. Finally went into the chapel and he seemed to be heading towards his seat, so I thought I could sneak past him from behind to go to the other side, but he suddenly turned around, touched my shoulder again, motioned to my 10-year-old daughter, and said, "You can tell this one is yours because she looks just like you." My husband was behind him at this point and couldn't hear what he said, but I was looking at him like "Please do something!" I gathered both of my girls and ushered them to the opposite side of the chapel. Bishop was out of town today, but I'm talking to him as soon as he gets back. 

Told my daughter during sacrament that she is not to stop and talk to that guy ever - keep walking. I just want to go back to my old ward.  

The church has a pattern. They believe in full forgiveness for this man. But in doing that they forget the harm he may still do, because he may not be able to fully change or recover. The church should never have allowed him the position in the church which could in turn harm anyone. The church is silent on what this man did, but they shouldn't be, because you and others are in his path. 

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The church has a pattern. They believe in full forgiveness for this man. But in doing that they forget the harm he may still do, because he may not be able to fully change or recover. The church should never have allowed him the position in the church which could in turn harm anyone. The church is silent on what this man did, but they shouldn't be, because you and others are in his path. 

I do agree that if someone is guilty of hurting children then the entire congregation should be made aware of that.  It's not about making someone a pariah or withholding forgiveness, it's about giving parents the information that they need to be able to keep their kids safe.