Troubling Development Re: Immigration from Mexico

[jkwilliams]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What does he propose to do about it (the separation of the children, I mean)?

The article is simply a blurb on what both major candidates said on a given day. There is literally one brief quote from Lopez Obrador from which this whole dishonest article is pulled. 

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The article is simply a blurb on what both major candidates said on a given day. There is literally one brief quote from Lopez Obrador from which this whole dishonest article is pulled. 

If it’s just a brief quote, how long would it take for you to provide a translation?

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

I can't discuss this with you Calm because I don't want to be at odds with you in the slightest... and, as a former So Californian I've seen through the years how deep and hot this issue is... my hope and prayer is that resolution to the issues can be soon with compassion and compromise from both sides.   

GG

Amen to that.  Btw, not saying there aren’t some who feel entitled as well. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Calm

[USU78]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

This:

I have been trying to sort out how I feel about illegal immigration.  I have respected the LDS Church's statements and guidance about this.  We need to remember these are our brothers and sisters.  They are human beings.

But we also need to preserve our sovereignty and cohesion as a nation.  

And we also need to be concerned about the safety of unregulated cross-border migration, both because of sovereignty issues and also given the horrific accounts we keep hearing about it.

Now we have the likely next president of Mexico openly encouraging his own citizens to leave their country and "find a life in the United States."

This will not end well.

Any thoughts from a moral/religious perspective on how to respond to things like the news item above?

Thanks,

-Smac

That would run you an act of war.

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

“these people somehow believe they are entitled to pour over our borders”

I suspect many of them don’t feel entitled to anything, but just feel desperate.

Only pain motivates social change. If the Mexican pressure valve that is its northern border were to cease to function as it has, the Dons would suddenly be faced with a serious challenge to address the grinding, generational poverty and lawlessness they have always winked at.

If that pain leads to rage at home instead of dissipates across the border, what might be the result?

[jkwilliams]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If it’s just a brief quote, how long would it take for you to provide a translation?

I would if I weren’t on the road. Seeing my grandson takes precedence. 

[Storm Rider]

I think every individual who attempts to enter any country should be punished - by permanently excluding them from any future opportunity for a green card or citizenship and sending them back to their own countries - they are committing an illegal act. There is no argument about this and I don't understand any handwringing about it - they are breaking the laws of the land.  

I have no qualms about any country doing whatever it takes to protect their borders, their national culture, and their national language.  Yes, I believe every person should speak English because I strongly believe that citizens need to communicate with one another. I don't believe that any nation that provides a free education to illegal aliens or legal guests in their country should be required to also educate them in the language of their country of origin. I think nations that legally accept foreign workers should teach them the national language(s) free of charge until they gain a functional ability to operate in the host country. 

I am an advocate of US students being taught and becoming fluent in at least one language and preferably two prior to leaving high school and/or university. 

I do not believe that any nation must sacrifice their culture for the welfare of foreigners.  Nothing was so shocking to me as to visit several cities in southern France that are no longer French cities. Whole areas of cities have been taken over for foreign cultures and languages. During my lifetime I have heard much bellyaching about American cultural imperialism and yet I have not heard a word of criticism about any of the third world nations who send their citizens abroad and completely take over the cultural societies of countless world cities. Europe and North America should not be the economic destinations for the rest of the world.  This process retards the progress of third world nations and destroys the cultures of Europe in particular.

First world nations have a responsibility to assist the economic progress of 3rd world nations by respecting their local cultures and languages. As a citizen of the US, I strongly believe that we should keep our social mores at home - they have no place in a foreign land if they conflict with the local culture. We should do all in our power to facilitate peace in foreign nations and assist them in growing their own economies. 

I have traveled extensively throughout the world and it is what my wife and I enjoy doing most. I absolutely detest going to a foreign land only to see a KFC or MacDonalds or any other US eatery/chain - I wish that we could turn back the clock and nations be fully cognizant about such things in order to keep them minimized. A national identity, a national culture is of inestimable value and should be both protected and respected. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Storm Rider

[Calm]

This I believe is the relevant Spanish text (I can read a bit):

Y ya pronto, muy pronto, al triunfo de nuestro movimiento vamos a defender a los migrantes de todo el continente Americano y todos los migrantes del mundo que, por necesidad, tienen que abandonar sus pueblos para buscar la vida en Estados Unidos, es un derecho human que vamos, a defender, expreso'

Google translator:

And soon, very soon, to the triumph of our movement we will defend migrants from all over the American continent and all the migrants of the world who, by necessity, have to leave their villages to seek life in the United States, it is a right human that we go, to defend, I express'

So it appears to be a definite misrepresentation as he is not saying they should leave their towns, but is talking about those who have to leave their towns due to necessity.

http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/22/mexican-candidate-immigration-speech/

Quote

adding that immigrants “must leave their towns and find a life in the United States.

---

So I wonder if he sees it as a human right to immigrate to Mexico and intends to change the law?

Quote

 

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweekmagazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants. Additionally, Contreras found that at coffee farms in the Mexican state Chiapas, "40,000 Guatemalan field hands endure backbreaking jobs and squalid living conditions to earn roughly [US]$3.50 a day" and that some farmers "even deduct the cost of room and board from that amount."[2] In 2008, the Mexican National Institute of Migration estimated that 400,235 people crossed the border illegally every year and that around 150,000 of them intended to enter the United States.[3]

Programa Frontera Sur[edit]

Like the Mexico–United States border, Mexico has limited fencing along its southern border with Guatemala.[4] In July 2014, Mexico adopted the Programa Frontera Sur at the urging of the United States.[4] The plan proposes "to overcome common challenges related to migration and respect for human rights" and to establish "a more modern, efficient, prosperous and secure border."[4] Instead of building a wall and preventing people from crossing the border, Mexico relies on interior enforcement via layers of checkpoints staffed by the National Migration Institute, the military police, the Mexican Army, and the Mexican Navy.[4] The results of the enforcement program has been mixed with increased detentions and removals but also increased victimization of migrants by criminal gangs and corrupt government officials due to more dispersed flows as migrants use less travelled routes.[4] In 2015, Mexican authorities arrested more than 170,000 Central Americans[4] up from 120,000 in 2014.[5]In 2016, according to the Mexican civil rights organization Meso-American Migration Movement (Movimiento Migrante Mesoamericano), over 400,000 migrants crossed Mexico's southern border with 20,000 of them dying or disappearing in Mexico due to criminal gangs, trafficking, or exposure to the elements.[4]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala–Mexico_border#Immigration_issues

Edited June 23, 2018 by Calm

[Josh Khinder]

Mormons are told not to marry Mexicans 😃

 

Even before the migration to Mexico had begun, Apostle Brigham Young, Jr. had warned members of the Church living in Arizona ‘that the blood of Cain was more predominant in these Mexicans than that of Israel.’ For this reason he ‘condemned the mixing’ of Mormons with ‘outsiders.’”

 

 - B. Carmon Hardy, “Cultural ‘Encystment’ as a Cause of the Exodus from Mexico in 1912,” Pacific Historical Review, v. 34, 1965, p. 447

 

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t believe it’s unintentional. There’s no way to get the imperative “must” from what was written. It’s intended to get the reaction it got from smac97. I don’t think Spencer speaks Spanish, so I don’t believe he is to blame. 

If google translate can get it right, I don't see it likely that someone else would blow it.  Heck, my high school Spanish let me recognize "for necessity" from "por necesidad" and "have to abandon" from "tienen qui abandoner".

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, smac97 said:

This:

I have been trying to sort out how I feel about illegal immigration.  I have respected the LDS Church's statements and guidance about this.  We need to remember these are our brothers and sisters.  They are human beings.

But we also need to preserve our sovereignty and cohesion as a nation.  

And we also need to be concerned about the safety of unregulated cross-border migration, both because of sovereignty issues and also given the horrific accounts we keep hearing about it.

Now we have the likely next president of Mexico openly encouraging his own citizens to leave their country and "find a life in the United States."

This will not end well.

Any thoughts from a moral/religious perspective on how to respond to things like the news item above?.........................

Seeing as how we took 1/3 of Mexico by force in 1847, and then dictated the Guadalupe-Hidalgo Treaty with what remained of Mexico, maybe the chickens have come home to roost.  The shame of it is that we did not even abide by our treaty obligations to Mexico.  Of course, we have made a regular practice as a nation of violating all of our treaties with other nations -- including the American Indians.

I would like to see the sovereignty and cohesion of the USA be based on righteousness and truth, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.  I am glad that the LDS Church has a policy which ignores the phony "criminal" status of those who are here "illegally" -- even sending young men on missions who do not have legal immigration status.  When you go in for a temple recommend interview, how strange that you are never asked about your immigration status.  The Lord looks on the heart, not on outward appearance.

Edited June 23, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

Here is a reuters report though they don't quote the second part of the paragraph unfortunately...though I bet they would have if it had said what is claimed by the Daily Caller.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-immigration-mexico-minister/mexico-calls-migrant-children-separation-inhumane-racist-idUKKBN1JF2IB

Quote

Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, who leads polls ahead of the country’s July 1 election, asked Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto to “act urgently” to stop “that arrogant, racist, inhuman attitude of deporting children, putting them in cages and separating them from their parents.” 

“Soon, very soon, when our movement triumphs, we will defend the migrants from Mexico, Central America, all the American continent, and all the migrants of the world,” he said at a rally in Culiacan, the capital of the north-western state of Sinaloa.

 

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I just read the article in El Universal. Talk about misrepresentation. Lopez did not say that. He said that he would defend immigrants against racism and injustice. And he never said immigrants must leave their towns. He said he would defend the rights of people who are forced (por necesidad) to leave their towns and find a life in the US. 

I’m not familiar with the Daily Caller, but I am not impressed with this blatantly dishonest reporting. 

This sounds much more logical. I doubt telling country men/women to leave to the U.S. would get him much support in the election.  

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Side issue.

since Joseph smith said that all of north and South America are Zion isn’t this where we will end up at some point anyway?

Do you have a reference for this?  I thought JS said zion was Jackson County, Missouri.

[sunstoned]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Anything to this?

Does he really favor amnesty for drug cartels?

I noticed that Nancy Polosi and other Democratic leaders and biased news media were all-too-quick to rise to the defense of the brutal and vicious MS 13 gang when Trump spoke of deporting its members.

 

Anything from Fox news and entertainment I would take with a big grain of salt.

[sunstoned]

30 minutes ago, Josh Khinder said:

Mormons are told not to marry Mexicans 😃

Even before the migration to Mexico had begun, Apostle Brigham Young, Jr. had warned members of the Church living in Arizona ‘that the blood of Cain was more predominant in these Mexicans than that of Israel.’ For this reason he ‘condemned the mixing’ of Mormons with ‘outsiders.’”

 - B. Carmon Hardy, “Cultural ‘Encystment’ as a Cause of the Exodus from Mexico in 1912,” Pacific Historical Review, v. 34, 1965, p. 447

 

Your quote, and this one from Spencer Kimball and all others like it are racist and should be disavowed. 

Quote

We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs.

The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball. Bookcraft. p. 226. ISBN 0884944727.

[Rajah Manchou]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I just read the article in El Universal. Talk about misrepresentation. Lopez did not say that. I’m not familiar with the Daily Caller, but I am not impressed with this blatantly dishonest reporting. 

Its only dishonest until Trump reads it and tweets it. Then its solid fact. 

[Josh Khinder]

17 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Your quote, and this one from Spencer Kimball and all others like it are racist and should be disavowed. 

The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball. Bookcraft. p. 226. ISBN 0884944727.

looks like the Mormon leaders were in one accord in that teaching 😃

[bsjkki]

Here is long article about the AMLO. Reformist or future dictator...I'm not sure. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/06/25/a-new-revolution-in-mexico  

Edited June 23, 2018 by bsjkki

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think every individual who attempts to enter any country should be punished - by permanently excluding them from any future opportunity for a green card or citizenship and sending them back to their own countries - they are committing an illegal act. There is no argument about this and I don't understand any handwringing about it - they are breaking the laws of the land.  

I have no qualms about any country doing whatever it takes to protect their borders, their national culture, and their national language.  Yes, I believe every person should speak English because I strongly believe that citizens need to communicate with one another. I don't believe that any nation that provides a free education to illegal aliens or legal guests in their country should be required to also educate them in the language of their country of origin. I think nations that legally accept foreign workers should teach them the national language(s) free of charge until they gain a functional ability to operate in the host country. 

I am an advocate of US students being taught and becoming fluent in at least one language and preferably two prior to leaving high school and/or university. 

I do not believe that any nation must sacrifice their culture for the welfare of foreigners.  Nothing was so shocking to me as to visit several cities in southern France that are no longer French cities. Whole areas of cities have been taken over for foreign cultures and languages. During my lifetime I have heard much bellyaching about American cultural imperialism and yet I have not heard a word of criticism about any of the third world nations who send their citizens abroad and completely take over the cultural societies of countless world cities. Europe and North America should not be the economic destinations for the rest of the world.  This process retards the progress of third world nations and destroys the cultures of Europe in particular.

First world nations have a responsibility to assist the economic progress of 3rd world nations by respecting their local cultures and languages. As a citizen of the US, I strongly believe that we should keep our social mores at home - they have no place in a foreign land if they conflict with the local culture. We should do all in our power to facilitate peace in foreign nations and assist them in growing their own economies. 

I have traveled extensively throughout the world and it is what my wife and I enjoy doing most. I absolutely detest going to a foreign land only to see a KFC or MacDonalds or any other US eatery/chain - I wish that we can turn back the clock and nations be fully cognizant about such things in order to keep them minimized. A national identity, a national culture is of inestimable value and should be respected. 

Nationalist pride, protectionism, and a desire for cultural purity has not historically had positive results.

It is also antithetical to the gospel. I should have more in common and more concern for my fellow saints in Japan and Brazil and India and Germany instead of worrying about national and cultural purity.

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

This I believe is the relevant Spanish text (I can read a bit):

Y ya pronto, muy pronto, al triunfo de nuestro movimiento vamos a defender a los migrantes de todo el continente Americano y todos los migrantes del mundo que, por necesidad, tienen que abandonar sus pueblos para buscar la vida en Estados Unidos, es un derecho human que vamos, a defender, expreso'

Google translator:

And soon, very soon, to the triumph of our movement we will defend migrants from all over the American continent and all the migrants of the world who, by necessity, have to leave their villages to seek life in the United States, it is a right human that we go, to defend, I express'

So it appears to be a definite misrepresentation as he is not saying they should leave their towns, but is talking about those who have to leave their towns due to necessity.

http://dailycaller.com/2018/06/22/mexican-candidate-immigration-speech/

---

So I wonder if he sees it as a human right to immigrate to Mexico and intends to change the law?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala–Mexico_border#Immigration_issues

Your translation is close enough.  Definitely a misrepresentation. 

Made it to Rexburg and got to hold the new grandson. Somehow this board doesn’t seem very important. 

[strappinglad]

What shall we do with the Old Testament which specifically commands the Israelites NOT to mix their seed with the neighbors, and their neighbors were Semitic  for heaven's sake ? I suppose that would be in order to not have the Israelites following after strange gods ( like Solomon eventually did ) , but if all involved believe in the same God it's fine.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Seeing as how we took 1/3 of Mexico by force in 1847, and then dictated the Guadalupe-Hidalgo Treaty with what remained of Mexico, maybe the chickens have come home to roost.  The shame of it is that we did not even abide by our treaty obligations to Mexico.  Of course, we have made a regular practice as a nation of violating all of our treaties with other nations -- including the American Indians.

I would like to see the sovereignty and cohesion of the USA be based on righteousness and truth, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.  I am glad that the LDS Church has a policy which ignores the phony "criminal" status of those who are here "illegally" -- even sending young men on missions who do not have legal immigration status.  When you go in for a temple recommend interview, how strange that you are never asked about your immigration status.  The Lord looks on the heart, not on outward appearance.

I was hoping someone would say something like this, thanks Robert!! So true!

 

 

32699961_2435411776469786_2085517753933889536_n.png

 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Tacenda

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I would like to see the sovereignty and cohesion of the USA be based on righteousness and truth, but I doubt that will happen any time soon.  I am glad that the LDS Church has a policy which ignores the phony "criminal" status of those who are here "illegally" -- even sending young men on missions who do not have legal immigration status.

I was one of those sent to serve in a foreign country, without proper legal status. I was sent as an illegal migrant to a country in Africa, and was prompted to not say the word "missionary" if asked what I was doing there.

I now live within an hour flight of two countries where missionaries are hush hush about what they do, usually saying they are English teachers or volunteers.


Yes, immigration laws are there to preserve and protect the native cultures of sovereign states. The way things are going, Americans (and Mormon missionaries) are going to get slapped with travel bans to Mexico and a number of other places. This will be the inevitable result of strict "America First" immigration laws.

[Robert F. Smith]

28 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I was one of those sent to serve in a foreign country, without proper legal status. I was sent as an illegal migrant to a country in Africa, and was prompted to not say the word "missionary" if asked what I was doing there.

I now live within an hour flight of two countries where missionaries are hush hush about what they do, usually saying they are English teachers or volunteers.


Yes, immigration laws are there to preserve and protect the native cultures of sovereign states. The way things are going, Americans (and Mormon missionaries) are going to get slapped with travel bans to Mexico and a number of other places. This will be the inevitable result of strict "America First" immigration laws.

Yes, temporarily, perhaps.  I recall the time in the 1960s in which Mexico would not allow LDS missionaries into the country as ministers of the Gospel.  So they came in on tourist visas instead, regularly going back to the USA to renew their status.