Guest Posted June 14, 2018 Posted June 14, 2018 On June 13, 2018 at 1:46 AM, Calm said: A fun way at looking at population density (the 'grey' areas are even more obvious like this). US at night: That bright spot in Georgia, that's me. 2
rodheadlee Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 On 6/13/2018 at 11:56 AM, SouthernMo said: But what if you think you’re going to sin again? If you feel like that’s who you are, and can’t stop? Not trying to argue with your logic here in many cases. Just trying to point out where I found some pretty harsh teachings. I think about committing suicide quite frequently. The main thing that keeps me from doing it are the teachings of the church. knowing that I would have to face my parents, God, my inlaws, relatives etc is the one thing that keeps me from doing it. I attempted suicide when I was 19 and in fact I did die but for a short period. I was not a member of the Church at the time but I got a good look at the outer Darkness. It's very lonely there. 3
carbon dioxide Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 The sad thing about suicide is that it does not solve a problem. We are the same people after death as we are alive. Those who kill themselves to take away their unhappiness still remain unhappy when they get to the spirit world. They solve no problems. In fact they are probably more unhappy because of what they did. 1
Calm Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 23 hours ago, Tacenda said: Also, I wonder if our belief in a better hereafter make it easier to take their life. What if we believed there wasn't anything, I wonder if we'd think differently and just take this life one day at a time and enjoy each day more. Usually religion has a negative impact on suicide rates unless the religion presents suicide as a positive thing, unusual in Christian and Jewish tradition. So even when the hereafter is presented as a positive thing, If suicide itself is not, rates are lower than for the nonreligious. I was just reading an article about this last night. Let me know if you want me to dig it up. 1
nuclearfuels Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 On 6/12/2018 at 8:18 PM, flameburns623 said: I will kick this off with this blog, which launches into a diatribe sbout Mormonism somewhere in the middle: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thoughtfulpastor/2018/06/09/i-remember-when-i-was-near-suicide/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=FBCP-PRX&utm_content=thoughtfulpastor Utah's altitude and air pollution contribute to the high number of anti-depressants and chemical imbalances. Since each of us don't progress in a linear fashion in our callings, it's understandable to think: I'm doing all this service and not progressing in my callings, so somethings wrong with me - then mood-congruent thinking comes in and then a Rx. As far as cultures that encourage suicide over healing, Japanese soldiers who killed themselves though losing WWII wasn't their fault, and the high number of Asian student suicides when they don't graduate medical school by 27 years old come to mind
Popular Post clarkgoble Posted June 15, 2018 Popular Post Posted June 15, 2018 13 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: The sad thing about suicide is that it does not solve a problem. We are the same people after death as we are alive. Those who kill themselves to take away their unhappiness still remain unhappy when they get to the spirit world. They solve no problems. In fact they are probably more unhappy because of what they did. That's not necessarily true. It presupposes that things like depression are purely due to the intents and habits of the spirit rather than malfunction of the neurological system. I'm of course not justifying suicide in the least. Just that the presumption that mental illness will be with people in the next life seems deeply problematic for a slew of reasons. 5
california boy Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 Orrin Hatch gave a very thougtful address before the Senate in the last couple of days on LGBT suicide as well as other youth. I am the first to admit, I was very pleasantly surprised that he choose to address this issue with such sensitivity and directness. I hope you will take the time to listen to his comments. Some of the things that he said were. Quote Mr. President, I rise today to address a public health crisis that has left in its wake a trail of tragedy and shattered life. The suicide epidemic has touched all sectors of our society, but the problem is particularly acute among LGBT youth, who experience bullying and discrimination at every turn. In the most devastating cases, these teenagers even face estrangement from their own families. That’s why today, in honor of Pride Month, I wish to devote a significant portion of my remarks to them—my young friends in the LGBT community. Mr. President, the prevalence of suicide, especially among LGBT teens, is a serious problem that requires national attention. No one should ever feel less because of their gender identity or sexual orientation. LGBT youth deserve our unwavering love and support. They deserve our validation and the assurance that not only is there a place for them in this society, but that it is far better off because of them. These young people need us—and we desperately need them. We need their light to illuminate the richness and diversity of God’s creations. We need the grace, beauty, and brilliance they bring to the world. That’s why, as we commemorate Pride Month, my message today is one of love for my LGBT brothers and sisters. It is also a call for action to Americans of all political stripes. Regardless of where you stand on the cultural issues of the day—whether you’re a religious conservative, a secular liberal, or somewhere in between—we all have a special duty to each another. That duty is to treat one another with dignity and respect. It is not simply to tolerate but to love. The first tenet of my faith is to love one another. The same man who taught this principle also lived it by his example. In an era characterized by rigid social divisions, he broke down barriers propped up by centuries of tradition and cultural belief. In his teachings, he made no distinction between man or woman, Jew or Gentile, sinner or saint, but invited all to come to him. He saw beyond the arbitrary differences of group identity to the inherent worth of the individual. He taught that we are all equal because we are all children of the same God and partakers of the same human condition. This man loved radically, and he challenged all of us to do the same. Quote That’s why I am a strong supporter of Utah’s Love Loud Festival, among many other efforts to combat suicide and improve mental health in the LGBT community. These young men and women deserve to feel loved, cared for, and accepted for who they are. They deserve to know that they belong, and that our society is stronger because of them Quote Over the last two decades, the suicide epidemic has taken tens of thousands of lives, with suicide rates rising by as much as 30 percent across the country. The severity of this public health crisis was thrown into sharp relief last week with the tragic deaths of Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain. In my home state of Utah, the statistics are particularly alarming. Every 14 hours, a Utahn dies by suicide, resulting in an average of 630 deaths each year. The problem is so acute that Utah now has the 5th highest suicide rate in the nation Bold is mine. 1
bsjkki Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 18 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: The sad thing about suicide is that it does not solve a problem. We are the same people after death as we are alive. Those who kill themselves to take away their unhappiness still remain unhappy when they get to the spirit world. They solve no problems. In fact they are probably more unhappy because of what they did. This is overly broad. People committ for suicide for many reasons...many of which may make them "unhappy." But, do you believe if you die you will still suffer from debilitating pain? Illness? Many are not thinking straight at all due to mental illness, or certain medications they were prescribed. Some even committ suicide because they believe their sin is so great or the repentance process so hard, that God will never love them again anyway. It is easier to not bring shame and disapointment to their loved ones by not facing them. When counseling the youth, Bishops have to be incredibly sensitive and aware of the mental health of the youth they counsel. He must give them hope. Christ and the Gospel of Jesus Christ should bring hope. This message of hope is not always conveyed by imperfect Bishops and I know of 3 youth who felt suicide was a valid option after talking with their Bishop because their interviews made them feel no hope. This should not happen but Bishops are not perfect. I am grateful for my current Bishop who emphasized the need for "hopeful" messages to be shared with the youth because there are so many problems with the youth in my ward. Sad times. 1
Tacenda Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 23 hours ago, rodheadlee said: I think about committing suicide quite frequently. The main thing that keeps me from doing it are the teachings of the church. knowing that I would have to face my parents, God, my inlaws, relatives etc is the one thing that keeps me from doing it. I attempted suicide when I was 19 and in fact I did die but for a short period. I was not a member of the Church at the time but I got a good look at the outer Darkness. It's very lonely there. I was thinking of you the other day rodheadlee, I went to see Adrift and thought of you! You're not alone in attempting or accomplishing suicide! I'm glad you survived, so glad. Outer darkness? Shoot, was hoping it didn't exist. Now what am I going to do? Hope this finds you doing well!
Tacenda Posted June 15, 2018 Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, california boy said: Orrin Hatch gave a very thougtful address before the Senate in the last couple of days on LGBT suicide as well as other youth. I am the first to admit, I was very pleasantly surprised that he choose to address this issue with such sensitivity and directness. I hope you will take the time to listen to his comments. Some of the things that he said were. Bold is mine. I too was happy about Orrin Hatch giving that speech. He actually went off script a little and that was good to see he wasn't just reading a statement, but came from the heart...exciting stuff. Edited June 15, 2018 by Tacenda
The Nehor Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 21 hours ago, Calm said: Usually religion has a negative impact on suicide rates unless the religion presents suicide as a positive thing, unusual in Christian and Jewish tradition. So even when the hereafter is presented as a positive thing, If suicide itself is not, rates are lower than for the nonreligious. I was just reading an article about this last night. Let me know if you want me to dig it up. Can we invent some kind of Mormon Stoicism to explain the numbers?
The Nehor Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 23 hours ago, rodheadlee said: I think about committing suicide quite frequently. The main thing that keeps me from doing it are the teachings of the church. knowing that I would have to face my parents, God, my inlaws, relatives etc is the one thing that keeps me from doing it. I attempted suicide when I was 19 and in fact I did die but for a short period. I was not a member of the Church at the time but I got a good look at the outer Darkness. It's very lonely there. Get some help. You do not need to live like that. Try self-taught CBT or some kind of therapy. 1
rodheadlee Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 56 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I was thinking of you the other day rodheadlee, I went to see Adrift and thought of you! You're not alone in attempting or accomplishing suicide! I'm glad you survived, so glad. Outer darkness? Shoot, was hoping it didn't exist. Now what am I going to do? Hope this finds you doing well! Thanks, we are doing alright. We are sailing out of Stockton, CA this September. I'm trying to finish 2 boats and get my own boat ready to sail. We don't know where we are going except we will turn left going out the Golden Gate and go south until the butter melts. Then when it's hurricane season we have to be back north. So our boat has to be sea ready 24/7
rodheadlee Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Get some help. You do not need to live like that. Try self-taught CBT or some kind of therapy. It's ok right now. One day at a time. I'm not depressed just tired but I still have work to do so I'll suck it up and carry on. Thanks for your concern. Edited June 16, 2018 by rodheadlee
Guest Posted June 16, 2018 Posted June 16, 2018 6 hours ago, california boy said: Orrin Hatch gave a very thougtful address before the Senate in the last couple of days on LGBT suicide as well as other youth. I am the first to admit, I was very pleasantly surprised that he choose to address this issue with such sensitivity and directness. I hope you will take the time to listen to his comments. Some of the things that he said were. Bold is mine. Suicides are not a religious issue. People feel bad about themselves for countless reasons, not because of the Faith they belong too. Persons who feel left out, or unwanted, unloved, uninvited, is not a Mormon issue, nor a Gay issue. But exists and occurs along ALL social, religious, economic, and irreligious. Where it claims the lives of so many, is among those returning from war, be they Gay, Straight, Hero, Coward, even survivors guilt. What is even more heartbreaking is those who wish to find blame, instead of solutions. 4
Miya Posted June 20, 2018 Posted June 20, 2018 Hatch was articulate enough, but he's way too late to the party. Suicide has been an epidemic for years, especially in Utah. Mental Illness is a huge factor in over half of suicides here in Utah. Sadly, I've never heard any politician in Utah, or elsewhere, plead on behalf of the mentally ill. They didn't 'choose' their illness any more than LGBT individuals 'chose' their identity. While it's now kosher to speak on behalf of LGBT suicides, we're not even close to recognizing the epidemic that has nothing to do with sexuality or gender. It's a poor reflection of our politicians, and our society. Quote
USU78 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 48 minutes ago, Miya said: Mental Illness is a huge factor in over half of suicides here in Utah. I daresay your estimate is way low. 1
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 In my experience, too many people believe in the Atonement as an abstract concept, but they dont see it applying in their lives. There’s such a huge emphasis on keeping the commandments, and most people don’t keep them all at all times. When you fail, and you don’t really believe you’re forgiven, it’s easy to despair. My suicide attempt came after I lost my faith, so the church wasn’t the primary factor. 2
Storm Rider Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: In my experience, too many people believe in the Atonement as an abstract concept, but they dont see it applying in their lives. There’s such a huge emphasis on keeping the commandments, and most people don’t keep them all at all times. When you fail, and you don’t really believe you’re forgiven, it’s easy to despair. My suicide attempt came after I lost my faith, so the church wasn’t the primary factor. 1 I think it is rather quaint when critics of the church attempt to hang the cause for suicide is because of the Mormon Church. I am forced to assume they have an ax to grind or they entirely ignorant of the causes of suicide. It is multifaceted and complex and it begins and ends with some degree of mental illness most often identified as depression or clinical depression. The process of healing is just as multifaceted and just as complex. It is not easy and I dare say that the desire, the thoughts, etc., are ever permanently extinguished. Edited June 21, 2018 by Storm Rider
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, Storm Rider said: I think it is rather quaint when critics of the church attempt to hang the cause for suicide is because of the Mormon Church. I am forced to assume they have an ax to grind or they entirely ignorant of the causes of suicide. It is multifaceted and complex and it begins and ends with some degree of mental illness most often identified as depression or clinical depression. The process of healing is just as multifaceted and just as complex. It is not easy and I dare say that the desire is ever permanently extinguished. Perhaps you misunderstood. I’m explicitly not blaming the church. There are a lot of factors, and for me and too many people I know, one major factor is the inability to forgive yourself. 2
Glenn101 Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 29 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Perhaps you misunderstood. I’m explicitly not blaming the church. There are a lot of factors, and for me and too many people I know, one major factor is the inability to forgive yourself. Something that we agree on.
Storm Rider Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 13 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Perhaps you misunderstood. I’m explicitly not blaming the church. There are a lot of factors, and for me and too many people I know, one major factor is the inability to forgive yourself. jk, I don't think we were disagreeing with each other at all - your thoughts just coincided with my own and motivated my comment.
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 56 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: jk, I don't think we were disagreeing with each other at all - your thoughts just coincided with my own and motivated my comment. Good to know. I'm sorry for misunderstanding. It's been 11 years, and I think about all I would have missed. 1
Storm Rider Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 1 hour ago, jkwilliams said: Good to know. I'm sorry for misunderstanding. It's been 11 years, and I think about all I would have missed. jk, I apologize, but my mind works like Swiss cheese most the time. I suspect that we have discussed things int he past, but I have lost the memory of such. Could you please share what you meant by, "...all I would have missed."?
jkwilliams Posted June 21, 2018 Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, Storm Rider said: jk, I apologize, but my mind works like Swiss cheese most the time. I suspect that we have discussed things int he past, but I have lost the memory of such. Could you please share what you meant by, "...all I would have missed."? Had I succeeded, I would have missed my kids growing up, going to college, getting married, and having a granddaughter (with two grandsons on the way), not to mention 11 more years with the most wonderful woman in the world. At the time all I could see was darkness and hopelessness. Thank heavens I stopped myself. 1
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