Do our values really foster suicide rather than healing?

[SouthernMo]

After I broke the law of chastity as an adult, the lesson I heard and read a few times quoting Marion G. Romney in September 1981 came to mind:

I remember how my father impressed the seriousness of unchastity upon my mind. He and I were standing in the railroad station at Rexburg, Idaho, in the early morning of 12 November 1920. We heard the train whistle. In three minutes I would be on my way to Australia to fill a mission. In that short interval my father said to me, among other things, “My son, you are going a long way from home. Your mother and I, and your brothers and sisters, will be with you constantly in our thoughts and prayers; we shall rejoice with you in your successes, and we shall sorrow with you in your disappointments. When you are released and return, we shall be glad to greet you and welcome you back into the family circle. But remember this, my son: we would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue.”

So, I attempted suicide. Better to be dead than unchaste, and suicide seemed like a good way to never break the law of chastity again.

There are certainly many scriptures and quotes that highlight the power of repentance, but quotes like these - these scare tactics - stick with impressionable youth like I was.

Do our overall values promote suicide?  Maybe not, but some teachings of men we are asked to sustain and prophets, seers, and revelators indicate that death is better than some sin.  That can be interpreted as justification for suicide.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

Where does this comment come from? It certainly isn't a sin to be sad.

It came from my demented mind and was a demented joke.

[Exiled]

58 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you saying it is harder to conform to nonLDS cultures since Utah County has one of the lowest rates in the state (and at least up until 2015 appears to have fit into the second to lowest category for the whole US even though high altitude according to several other maps along with the one I posted)?

For those interested, an article on altitude and suicide with maps...lots and lots:

http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/15/4/671

I was really saying that my guess is that mormonism doesn't prevent suicide as Pogi might have been implying. Utah has too high a suicide rate to justify that.

[Exiled]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It came from my demented mind and was a demented joke.

No worries, just wondered.

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Exiled said:

I was really saying that my guess is that mormonism doesn't prevent suicide as Pogi might have been implying. Utah has too high a suicide rate to justify that.

So why the low numbers in the densest Mormon part of Utah?

[Avatar4321]

16 hours ago, Duncan said:

your thoughts are absurd or the OP is absurd?

If I am to be honest both

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If we would just execute all the sad people we could lower suicide numbers.

I swear I’m happy

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

After I broke the law of chastity as an adult, the lesson I heard and read a few times quoting Marion G. Romney in September 1981 came to mind:

I remember how my father impressed the seriousness of unchastity upon my mind. He and I were standing in the railroad station at Rexburg, Idaho, in the early morning of 12 November 1920. We heard the train whistle. In three minutes I would be on my way to Australia to fill a mission. In that short interval my father said to me, among other things, “My son, you are going a long way from home. Your mother and I, and your brothers and sisters, will be with you constantly in our thoughts and prayers; we shall rejoice with you in your successes, and we shall sorrow with you in your disappointments. When you are released and return, we shall be glad to greet you and welcome you back into the family circle. But remember this, my son: we would rather come to this station and take your body off the train in a casket than to have you come home unclean, having lost your virtue.”

So, I attempted suicide. Better to be dead than unchaste, and suicide seemed like a good way to never break the law of chastity again.

There are certainly many scriptures and quotes that highlight the power of repentance, but quotes like these - these scare tactics - stick with impressionable youth like I was.

Do our overall values promote suicide?  Maybe not, but some teachings of men we are asked to sustain and prophets, seers, and revelators indicate that death is better than some sin.  That can be interpreted as justification for suicide.

If it’s better to die than to sin, then logically if you’ve sinned it’s no longer better to die until you repent.

 

[SouthernMo]

2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

If it’s better to die than to sin, then logically if you’ve sinned it’s no longer better to die until you repent.

 

But what if you think you’re going to sin again?  If you feel like that’s who you are, and can’t stop?  Not trying to argue with your logic here in many cases. Just trying to point out where I found some pretty harsh teachings.

[Avatar4321]

15 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

But what if you think you’re going to sin again?  If you feel like that’s who you are, and can’t stop?  Not trying to argue with your logic here in many cases. Just trying to point out where I found some pretty harsh teachings.

Until you repent why would dying help?

course in such an emotional situation I don’t exactly expect people to be fixed on reason.

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I swear I’m happy

I sentence you to hang until you cheer up a bit.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

course in such an emotional situation I don’t exactly expect people to be fixed on reason.

Bingo. 

[Exiled]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

So why the low numbers in the densest Mormon part of Utah?

I don't know. Why the high numbers per capita when Utah is at least 70% mormon. Utah, a mormon state, comes in at number 5 in per capita suicides. Surely mormonism can't be the reason why there is a low number in Utah county when considering these numbers. My guess is that it has to do with the high student population percentage in Utah County, their high birth rate and how suicide rates increase as a population ages. See near the bottom: https://ibis.health.utah.gov/indicator/complete_profile/SuicDth.html

Also note the low rate in SLC around the UofU.

[Tacenda]

I have permission to share this story about a recent suicide. Just wanted to share it......😢

I retired last week. A day later, a former co-worker committed suicide. A good friend who I had helped move a couple of times and really tried to stay close..yet apart because of her reactivation into the church. She was 65. Been married twice with two children. The second marriage was a Temple marriage and one she just could not get over. He just left her ..she would be so happy then I would find her outside in tears because she simply could not get over this man. She stayed away from the church for many years after this marriage..but always believed. As an ex Mormon I was careful because I really loved her and cared about her. I did not go to places in my life where I learned about different aspects of the church or shared with her those things that disconnected me from her own beliefs.. In the turmoil of getting herself together..her father always made her feel less than.. I do not have a clue why he would think that. She was a wonderful mother. She was so talented..in music...in making cakes..(winning an awardsJ)!! and in her creativity in sewing and imagination..so talented and on top of all that ...a nurse.  In any case, she said one day..I will go back to the bishop..confess my sins..and get back to the Tempe that I love. Knowing this is the worse thing she could do...I still kept my mouth shut..and said ...remember you have genuine friends that love you..in perfection nor not. This went on for months..and she was quiet most of the time..and then she was gone. So...you celestial people here...tell me..tell me..that I could not have made a difference...or tell me that there we things I did not uonderstand..just tell me..that there is a reason why I have planned walks with her in my retirement days that will no longer be. I sound selfish...with suicide I am. I miss my sister..my brother in law..and other people in my circle of life who have died of suicide...I am angry again.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Exiled said:

I don't know. Why the high numbers per capita when Utah is at least 70% mormon. Utah, a mormon state, comes in at number 5 in per capita suicides. Surely mormonism can't be the reason why there is a low number in Utah county when considering these numbers. My guess is that it has to do with the high student population percentage in Utah County, their high birth rate and how suicide rates increase as a population ages. See near the bottom: https://ibis.health.utah.gov/indicator/complete_profile/SuicDth.html

Also note the low rate in SLC around the UofU.

The suicide map was age adjusted, so unlikely high numbers of youth had an effect for Utah County.

High altitude appears to be a definite contributor for Utah in general and high percentage of whites may be where there is less diversity.

https://www.sprc.org/racial-ethnic-disparities

Smoking is another risk factor (though this may not be a cause, but only a sign of underlying problems as it could be viewed as self destructive behavior) that would be absent to a greater amount in Utah Valley. See above link for smoking info. Same with alcohol (one third of suicides involve alcohol). https://www.quitalcohol.com/alcohol-abuse/alcohol-and-suicide.html  Alcohol seems more likely to contribute as a cause being both a depressant and disinhibitor.

Quote

One third of all US suicides involve alcohol. That’s 2,500 lives that could have been saved with proper treatment and rehabilitation. An adult alcoholic is 120 times more likely to commit suicide than an adult non-alcoholic. The single most involved factor in suicide… you guessed it.

 

UofU/Foothills area tends to be higher income if I am thinking of the same area (have relatives who live there, drive through it often to take my daughter to ECT treatments).  That could be a factor (there is some debate about whether economic status is an inverse relationship or not, I think the studies finding an inverse are likely more accurate:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16420711 )

Quote

Analyses at the community level are significantly more likely to demonstrate lower rates of suicide among higher socio-economic areas than studies using larger areas of aggregation. Measures of area poverty and deprivation are most likely to be inversely associated with suicide rates and median income is least likely to be inversely associated with suicide rates. Analyses using measures of unemployment and education and occupation were equally likely to demonstrate inverse associations. Study results did not vary significantly by gender or by study design.

Air pollution may contribute to suicide as well.  There is less industry in the UofU area, wonder if the particulates are less.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4339389/

Quote

In this study, we used a time-stratified case-crossover design to investigate the associations between acute exposure to airborne particulate matter and gaseous air pollutants (nitrogen dioxide and sulfur dioxide) and suicide risk among completed suicides occurring in Salt Lake County, Utah, from 2000 to 2010. The Salt Lake Valley regularly experiences wintertime inversions (a product of its geography and weather), in which a mass of trapped cold air blankets the valley floor. These intermittent inversions are often characterized by an accumulation of air pollutants with daily average levels exceeding the Environmental Protection Agency's National Ambient Air Quality Standards (8)...

We found that increased suicide risk was associated with single-day and cumulative exposure to PM2.5 and nitrogen dioxide on and during the 2–3 days preceding a suicide in a sample of 1,546 completed suicides in Salt Lake County, Utah. Associations were strongest among males and persons aged 36–64 years. Suicide risk varied by season; it was heightened in both the spring and the spring/fall transition period following acute exposure to PM2.5 and in both the fall and the spring/fall transition period following acute exposure to nitrogen dioxide...

 

More adding-on:  looks like air pollution is worse on the west side of SLC than the east:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/environment/2017/11/18/air-pollution-in-salt-lake-city-is-heavier-on-the-west-side-than-the-east-health-experts-offered-tips-to-protect-yourself/

Carbon dioxide levels are twice as bad in Rose Parks as UoU (can't copy because past free limit).

Edited June 13, 2018 by Calm

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I have permission to share this story about a recent suicide. Just wanted to share it......😢

I retired last week. A day later, a former co-worker committed suicide. A good friend who I had helped move a couple of times and really tried to stay close..yet apart because of her reactivation into the church. She was 65. Been married twice with two children. The second marriage was a Temple marriage and one she just could not get over. He just left her ..she would be so happy then I would find her outside in tears because she simply could not get over this man. She stayed away from the church for many years after this marriage..but always believed. As an ex Mormon I was careful because I really loved her and cared about her. I did not go to places in my life where I learned about different aspects of the church or shared with her those things that disconnected me from her own beliefs.. In the turmoil of getting herself together..her father always made her feel less than.. I do not have a clue why he would think that. She was a wonderful mother. She was so talented..in music...in making cakes..(winning an awardsJ)!! and in her creativity in sewing and imagination..so talented and on top of all that ...a nurse.  In any case, she said one day..I will go back to the bishop..confess my sins..and get back to the Tempe that I love. Knowing this is the worse thing she could do...I still kept my mouth shut..and said ...remember you have genuine friends that love you..in perfection nor not. This went on for months..and she was quiet most of the time..and then she was gone. So...you celestial people here...tell me..tell me..that I could not have made a difference...or tell me that there we things I did not uonderstand..just tell me..that there is a reason why I have planned walks with her in my retirement days that will no longer be. I sound selfish...with suicide I am. I miss my sister..my brother in law..and other people in my circle of life who have died of suicide...I am angry again.

there will always something we don't understand. Whether it's something that can comfort you, I don't know.

I can understand anger. I used to be a very angry man. Mostly because of the pain I was in, which was mostly of my own doing. The only way past it was healing and that didn't happen until I turned to Jesus fully.

Life isn't what we think it should be. All we can do is try to make it better for others

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I have permission to share this story about a recent suicide. Just wanted to share it......😢

I retired last week. A day later, a former co-worker committed suicide. A good friend who I had helped move a couple of times and really tried to stay close..yet apart because of her reactivation into the church. She was 65. Been married twice with two children. The second marriage was a Temple marriage and one she just could not get over. He just left her ..she would be so happy then I would find her outside in tears because she simply could not get over this man. She stayed away from the church for many years after this marriage..but always believed. As an ex Mormon I was careful because I really loved her and cared about her. I did not go to places in my life where I learned about different aspects of the church or shared with her those things that disconnected me from her own beliefs.. In the turmoil of getting herself together..her father always made her feel less than.. I do not have a clue why he would think that. She was a wonderful mother. She was so talented..in music...in making cakes..(winning an awardsJ)!! and in her creativity in sewing and imagination..so talented and on top of all that ...a nurse.  In any case, she said one day..I will go back to the bishop..confess my sins..and get back to the Tempe that I love. Knowing this is the worse thing she could do...I still kept my mouth shut..and said ...remember you have genuine friends that love you..in perfection nor not. This went on for months..and she was quiet most of the time..and then she was gone. So...you celestial people here...tell me..tell me..that I could not have made a difference...or tell me that there we things I did not uonderstand..just tell me..that there is a reason why I have planned walks with her in my retirement days that will no longer be. I sound selfish...with suicide I am. I miss my sister..my brother in law..and other people in my circle of life who have died of suicide...I am angry again.

6

1. There is nothing specifically they could have done other than what they did - they were friends and they stayed in contact.
2. Agreed, just because you don't like someone's church, religious belief, etc., keep your stupid mouth shut.  You are not the judge nor do you know what is best for them.  (It is good that this individual held their tongue)
3. I am not a celestial person, but this individual did not understand and did not know what was going on in this person's mind.  Suicide is a very personal thing and even when an individual shares that they have such feelings - you are not responsible nor can you choose what is best for this individual.  The best thing to do is best honest, sensitive and reach out consistently and often.  When someone is depressed, doctors will often focus on assisting an individual to maintain a good diet, good sleep habits, and good exercise - those are fundamental to the process of recovery.  If you want to do something invite the individual to play tennis, walk, swim, hike, jog, do yoga, anything that gets the individual to be more active than they have been.
4. I really hate when someone accuses an individual who commits suicide of being selfish - an individual that is contemplating suicide is generally so overwhelmed they are only seeking surcease, an end, a complete stop to their existence.  

I am not sure of the value of being angry with a situation like suicide. I guess some people have to go through such a phase, but knowing that that is simply a personal problem and has nothing to do with religion, politics, etc.  

Suicide is not about others - it is about the individual and their mental state. 

 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

1. There is nothing specifically they could have done other than what they did - they were friends and they stayed in contact.
2. Agreed, just because you don't like someone's church, religious belief, etc., keep your stupid mouth shut.  You are not the judge nor do you know what is best for them.  (It is good that this individual held their tongue)
3. I am not a celestial person, but this individual did not understand and did not know what was going on in this person's mind.  Suicide is a very personal thing and even when an individual shares that they have such feelings - you are not responsible nor can you choose what is best for this individual.  The best thing to do is best honest, sensitive and reach out consistently and often.  When someone is depressed, doctors will often focus on assisting an individual to maintain a good diet, good sleep habits, and good exercise - those are fundamental to the process of recovery.  If you want to do something invite the individual to play tennis, walk, swim, hike, jog, do yoga, anything that gets the individual to be more active than they have been.
4. I really hate when someone accuses an individual who commits suicide of being selfish - an individual that is contemplating suicide is generally so overwhelmed they are only seeking surcease, an end, a complete stop to their existence.  

I am not sure of the value of being angry with a situation like suicide. I guess some people have to go through such a phase, but knowing that that is simply a personal problem and has nothing to do with religion, politics, etc.  

Suicide is not about others - it is about the individual and their mental state. 

 

Read it again, this person said she herself is selfish not the person that commited suicide. How did you read it to say that? 

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I have permission to share this story about a recent suicide. Just wanted to share it......😢

I retired last week. A day later, a former co-worker committed suicide. A good friend who I had helped move a couple of times and really tried to stay close..yet apart because of her reactivation into the church. She was 65. Been married twice with two children. The second marriage was a Temple marriage and one she just could not get over. He just left her ..she would be so happy then I would find her outside in tears because she simply could not get over this man. She stayed away from the church for many years after this marriage..but always believed. As an ex Mormon I was careful because I really loved her and cared about her. I did not go to places in my life where I learned about different aspects of the church or shared with her those things that disconnected me from her own beliefs.. In the turmoil of getting herself together..her father always made her feel less than.. I do not have a clue why he would think that. She was a wonderful mother. She was so talented..in music...in making cakes..(winning an awardsJ)!! and in her creativity in sewing and imagination..so talented and on top of all that ...a nurse.  In any case, she said one day..I will go back to the bishop..confess my sins..and get back to the Tempe that I love. Knowing this is the worse thing she could do...I still kept my mouth shut..and said ...remember you have genuine friends that love you..in perfection nor not. This went on for months..and she was quiet most of the time..and then she was gone. So...you celestial people here...tell me..tell me..that I could not have made a difference...or tell me that there we things I did not uonderstand..just tell me..that there is a reason why I have planned walks with her in my retirement days that will no longer be. I sound selfish...with suicide I am. I miss my sister..my brother in law..and other people in my circle of life who have died of suicide...I am angry again.

A desire to explain a suicide is understandable but such questions are almost always unanswerable and the futile demand that others answer them comes from frustration and anger.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

A desire to explain a suicide is understandable but such questions are almost always unanswerable and the futile demand that others answer them comes from frustration and anger.

Does make it more difficult for those left behind. I know you mentioned being at a low point and thinking suicide. I think about it daily. It's really strange because I'm not depressed, at least I don't think I am. Get this...I think of myself under a guillotine. That is pretty graphic, I don't know why I do that. I always feel better though the day after, so I always think if only those that commit suicide could have just reached out to someone or called the hotline...something..anything to just not do it. But in my case I have it figured out that I don't want to live with Alzheimer's if I get it. I'm not brave enough like my mom. So I will probably get help by going to a state that allows it. I sometimes believe that I may go to outer darkness, but really don't believe that anymore. I know it's awful to those I leave behind, but think they will understand, and I will be doing my husband a favor, although he doesn't believe it. He jokingly says he'll help me out. 

Also, I wonder if our belief in a better hereafter make it easier to take their life. What if we believed there wasn't anything, I wonder if we'd think differently and just take this life one day at a time and enjoy each day more.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Tacenda said:

Does make it more difficult for those left behind. I know you mentioned being at a low point and thinking suicide. I think about it daily. It's really strange because I'm not depressed, at least I don't think I am. Get this...I think of myself under a guillotine. That is pretty graphic, I don't know why I do that. I always feel better though the day after, so I always think if only those that commit suicide could have just reached out to someone or called the hotline...something..anything to just not do it. But in my case I have it figured out that I don't want to live with Alzheimer's if I get it. I'm not brave enough like my mom. So I will probably get help by going to a state that allows it. I sometimes believe that I may go to outer darkness, but really don't believe that anymore. I know it's awful to those I leave behind, but think they will understand, and I will be doing my husband a favor, although he doesn't believe it. He jokingly says he'll help me out. 

Also, I wonder if our belief in a better hereafter make it easier to take their life. What if we believed there wasn't anything, I wonder if we'd think differently and just take this life one day at a time and enjoy each day more.

I came up with a plan for suicide once though I never implemented it or even seriously worked towards it. I have sporadic moderate to severe depression but it has not been suicidal for many years.

My plan involved a way of making sure the people involved did not have a huge clean up job so I asked on an online forum about EMTs what the most courteous way to kill yourself is. I never got the supplies for it but I figured if I ever did do it I would leave the EMTs a nice tip nearby.

[USU78]

9 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Until you repent why would dying help?

course in such an emotional situation I don’t exactly expect people to be fixed on reason.

Indeed. A permanent and irrevocable solution to a temporary problem.

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Read it again, this person said she herself is selfish not the person that commited suicide. How did you read it to say that? 

I didn't; however, I have heard the accusation so often that when the term selfish comes up on this topic I try to correct any perception that this is about an individual who is selfish.  Even as I write that I do recognize how easy it can be assumed, but I strongly think it is a wrong assumption. 

Hope that clears up my point for you.  Have a good night.

[Robert F. Smith]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900021529/with-utahs-youth-suicides-rising-educators-are-feeling-the-brunt-and-asking-for-help.html?_cid=Email-1&utm_campaign=8d317230e5-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_06_14_11_00&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Morning Edition&utm_term=0_c273c164df-8d317230e5-510802885 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

19 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

..................................................

Do our overall values promote suicide?  Maybe not, but some teachings of men we are asked to sustain and prophets, seers, and revelators indicate that death is better than some sin.  That can be interpreted as justification for suicide.

Yes, there are many adults who use poor judgment.  After all, they are merely oversized youth in the guise of maturity, spouting nonsense.  But they have always done that.  The real question is, why are suicide rates rising so precipitous;ly now?  We have always had stupid but well-intentioned adults giving bad advice, and not simply in Mormon tradition.  This is a nationwide phenomenon, not restricted to the intermountain west, nor to Mormons. Can it be that it is part of a much larger shift in culture?  One that includes modern social media and the lack of real human connections?  Can we learn something from Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules?