Do our values really foster suicide rather than healing?

[Storm Rider]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Had I succeeded, I would have missed my kids growing up, going to college, getting married, and having a granddaughter (with two grandsons on the way), not to mention 11 more years with the most wonderful woman in the world. At the time all I could see was darkness and hopelessness. Thank heavens I stopped myself.

Not everyone does that; you are both lucky and wise. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Not everyone does that; you are both lucky and wise. 

Not sure about the wise part, but lucky. Going into the psych hospital for 3 days was the best thing that happened. 

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Not sure about the wise part, but lucky. Going into the psych hospital for 3 days was the best thing that happened. 

I have suicidal thoughts often. I often wonder what happens in the psych hospital and how that might help. I probably need some counseling or therapy of some kind. I've been a couple of times to different people, so far they don't help. Often my depression stems from loneliness, and feeling like I let my life get away from me, and not quite living it. And having a son who is totally disappointed in me and wondering why I'm not like his friends' moms who go do different things such as hot yoga, pedicure and manicure parties, with wine, lol. I just don't cut it. He is extremely anti and gets upset if I even attend church. When my RS president showed up to give me my route for ministering and a box full of handout gifts for those that need it in the ward (I'm on the compassionate service committee), my son had a fit. I told him how I needed to serve and I needed the social end. And I don't quite fit in anywhere else. It's been such a challenge ever since my faith crisis, I was never this depressed, but not everyone is depressed after their crisis, they move on to lead very fulfilling happy lives. 

I'm so happy you were able to pull through JK!! BTW, I saw that there was more flooding in Texas, did this affect you guys?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Tacenda said:

I have suicidal thoughts often. I often wonder what happens in the psych hospital and how that might help. I probably need some counseling or therapy of some kind. I've been a couple of times to different people, so far they don't help. Often my depression stems from loneliness, and feeling like I let my life get away from me, and not quite living it. And having a son who is totally disappointed in me and wondering why I'm not like his friends' moms who go do different things such as hot yoga, pedicure and manicure parties, with wine, lol. I just don't cut it. He is extremely anti and gets upset if I even attend church. When my RS president showed up to give me my route for ministering and a box full of handout gifts for those that need it in the ward (I'm on the compassionate service committee), my son had a fit. I told him how I needed to serve and I needed the social end. And I don't quite fit in anywhere else. It's been such a challenge ever since my faith crisis, I was never this depressed, but not everyone is depressed after their crisis, they move on to lead very fulfilling happy lives. 

I'm so happy you were able to pull through JK!! BTW, I saw that there was more flooding in Texas, did this affect you guys?

I'm in Utah, having just moved back from Virginia. My daughter and her husband have not been affected by flooding this time around, but thanks for asking. They have a baby on the way, so I'll be down there in a couple of months to see him. 

When I made my suicide attempt, I was on medication and in therapy, but the 3 days in the hospital helped the doctors determine that I wasn't on the right mix of medications, and my therapist was unlikely to be of help, as he had no point of reference for my situation. I felt better immediately when I got on the new meds, and I found a good therapist who helped me a great deal. It's been 11 years since I have had a major depressive episode, knock on wood.

If you are having suicidal thoughts, please see a psychiatrist and find a good therapist. I am living proof that it only takes a few minutes to go from thinking about suicide to actually doing it. Please go and talk to someone. You will be glad you did.

[Calm]

I can highly recommend as a psychiatrist Jessica Howesley at University of Utah.  She is a younger petite woman with a mellow voice, so it is instant relaxation time when we see her (treats my daughter).  Listens, considers lots of alternatives, is not dismissive (my daughter wanted to be tested for ADHD which I thought was way out there, but she referred her and now she is doing ECT which has been a mini miracle).  Conveys concern without it feeling like a drama.  Doesn't make you feel stupid for questions either (my daughter's pediatric psychiatrist...the only one in Utah County at the time was so dismissive and insisted she take a medicine which put her into RLS overdrive---explain to me again how having her take a medicine that has her sleeping until 2 PM is supposed to help her go to school?---I would not recommend him to anyone, he knew what he was going to do before we got there; bet he handed out the same prescriptions to everyone, when I told him that drug was bad for her other disorder, his response was "I don't treat that".)

Howesley  has a limited practice right now, so don't know if she has room, but might be able to provide a recommendation.

PS:  Tacenda, your son is being a jerk in this; perhaps saying "how about I let you live your life without judgment and you let me live mine the same way, deal?" would help?  If he is still a minor or living at home, you could say "when you start paying me for my time, you can start telling me what to do with it".

Edited June 21, 2018 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can highly recommend as a psychiatrist Jessica Howesley at University of Utah.  She is a younger petite woman with a mellow voice, so it is instant relaxation time when we see her (treats my daughter).  Listens, considers lots of alternatives, is not dismissive (my daughter wanted to be tested for ADHD which I thought was way out there, but she referred her and now she is doing ECT which has been a mini miracle).  Conveys concern without it feeling like a drama.  Doesn't make you feel stupid for questions either (my daughter's pediatric psychiatrist...the only one in Utah County at the time was so dismissive and insisted she take a medicine which put her into RLS overdrive---explain to me again how having her take a medicine that has her sleeping until 2 PM is supposed to help her go to school?---I would not recommend him to anyone, he knew what he was going to do before we got there; bet he handed out the same prescriptions to everyone, when I told him that drug was bad for her other disorder, his response was "I don't treat that".)

Howesley  has a limited practice right now, so don't know if she has room, but might be able to provide a recommendation.

PS:  Tacenda, your son is being a jerk in this; perhaps saying "how about I let you live your life without judgment and you let me live mine the same way, deal?" would help?  If he is still a minor or living at home, you could say "when you start paying me for my time, you can start telling me what to do with it".

I will try that next time. He did apologise through a text, which helped me not feel like a total failure. Yes he's living with us for a short time. He doesn't have a driver's license. At nineteen while living near UVU he was riding in a car with some people and had a half a can of beer. He wasn't driving thank goodness and they were pulled over. He therefore went through the driving school (?) and paid a lot of money in fines. Then he got caught again by a ranger in the mountains in Provo. All the kids took off running but him. He again had a half a can and both times the alcohol test wasn't even near the level for being over the limit. But I don't think that matters if you're underage and drinking. So he shows up in court and pleads guilty. Little did my husband and I know, that he probably could have gotten an attorney and not had to get his license taken away. But it was past the window of time. We didn't see the letters, they were mailed to his address in Provo. So therefore my son hasn't driven since Oct. 2016 and goes to work with my husband. He has been pretty bitter and we're not allowing him to drive whatsoever. And he has no insurance, because we took it off of his truck. So it's been pretty fun, lol.

Thanks for always being there Calm. I appreciate the info on the therapist at the U, I may check into it. BTW, I was in Bountiful the other day and there was a little store on main street selling CBD oil. I guess a lot of places are selling it. Sorry to harp about it. But do you think it would help your daughter. There was different varieties for sleep disorders, anxiety etc. I told the gal that ran the store that I'm currently taking some from Colorado and she said her mother has her son bring her some from there to help treat her mother that has Alzheimer's, I guess I'm not that strange after all.

Take care lady!

Edited June 21, 2018 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I have suicidal thoughts often. I often wonder what happens in the psych hospital and how that might help. I probably need some counseling or therapy of some kind. I've been a couple of times to different people, so far they don't help. Often my depression stems from loneliness, and feeling like I let my life get away from me, and not quite living it. And having a son who is totally disappointed in me and wondering why I'm not like his friends' moms who go do different things such as hot yoga, pedicure and manicure parties, with wine, lol. I just don't cut it. He is extremely anti and gets upset if I even attend church. When my RS president showed up to give me my route for ministering and a box full of handout gifts for those that need it in the ward (I'm on the compassionate service committee), my son had a fit. I told him how I needed to serve and I needed the social end. And I don't quite fit in anywhere else. It's been such a challenge ever since my faith crisis, I was never this depressed, but not everyone is depressed after their crisis, they move on to lead very fulfilling happy lives. 

I'm so happy you were able to pull through JK!! BTW, I saw that there was more flooding in Texas, did this affect you guys?

It can be a real challenge to find the right therapist/counselor. It makes me think that they pass out those designations in cracker jacks boxes, but when you find one that is very good it can make the difference between feeling like your are pounding sand (wasting time) and actually gaining help.  

Depression, severe depression, which is constant, persistent darkness needs to be treated with medication and a reordering of one's life.  The basics are eating right, exercising properly, and getting the proper amount of sleep. Then obtaining good counseling can really speed the process.  

Tacenda, I think I want to bend the ear of your son. Young man - you get to decide what you do with your life. Guess what, your mom gets to decide what she wants to do with hers. If you hate the Mormon church - great. That is your choice. If you want to spend your time hating others and it makes you happy, then go for it. However, you will not make my choices for me.  If that is a problem for you - then there is the door and don't let it hit you on the way out. What a controlling little twit! I don't do well with children who think they know better than the parents.  Do you want to hate? Take it down the street and leave it there.

Tacenda, I don't know a lot of super happy people that have left the Church - it is just not an easy process. I think it is possible, but you have to know that you are following your Father in Heaven and are focused on him and his service. 

 

[jkwilliams]

I’m with Calm. Your son has no right to treat you like that. My kids could get away with a lot, but I would not tolerate them being rude or disrespectful to their mother. 

Edited June 21, 2018 by jkwilliams

[Duncan]

22 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

In my experience, too many people believe in the Atonement as an abstract concept, but they dont see it applying in their lives. There’s such a huge emphasis on keeping the commandments, and most people don’t keep them all at all times. When you fail, and you don’t really believe you’re forgiven, it’s easy to despair. 

My suicide attempt came after I lost my faith, so the church wasn’t the primary factor. 

"Now, I think the principle question before us is not do we comprehend the atonement, but do we accept it and know it is true" [sic] Elder George Q. Morris of the Twelve, April 1956 GC

[jkwilliams]

41 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

 

Tacenda, I don't know a lot of super happy people that have left the Church - it is just not an easy process. I think it is possible, but you have to know that you are following your Father in Heaven and are focused on him and his service. 

 

I know a lot of happy ex-Mormons, unhappy ex-Mormons, and lots somewhere in between. I am happier outside the church mostly because I am at peace with myself in a way I never was in the church. 

Leaving the church is a very painful process for most people. Those who are happy in the church shouldn’t put themselves through it. But it can lead to a happier life for some. In short, it depends on the person. 

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I know a lot of happy ex-Mormons, unhappy ex-Mormons, and lots somewhere in between. I am happier outside the church mostly because I am at peace with myself in a way I never was in the church. 

Leaving the church is a very painful process for most people. Those who are happy in the church shouldn’t put themselves through it. But it can lead to a happier life for some. In short, it depends on the person. 

We agree again.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I will try that next time. He did apologise through a text, which helped me not feel like a total failure. Yes he's living with us for a short time. He doesn't have a driver's license. At nineteen while living near UVU he was riding in a car with some people and had a half a can of beer. He wasn't driving thank goodness and they were pulled over. He therefore went through the driving school (?) and paid a lot of money in fines. Then he got caught again by a ranger in the mountains in Provo. All the kids took off running but him. He again had a half a can and both times the alcohol test wasn't even near the level for being over the limit. But I don't think that matters if you're underage and drinking. So he shows up in court and pleads guilty. Little did my husband and I know, that he probably could have gotten an attorney and not had to get his license taken away. But it was past the window of time. We didn't see the letters, they were mailed to his address in Provo. So therefore my son hasn't driven since Oct. 2016 and goes to work with my husband. He has been pretty bitter and we're not allowing him to drive whatsoever. And he has no insurance, because we took it off of his truck. So it's been pretty fun, lol.

Thanks for always being there Calm. I appreciate the info on the therapist at the U, I may check into it. BTW, I was in Bountiful the other day and there was a little store on main street selling CBD oil. I guess a lot of places are selling it. Sorry to harp about it. But do you think it would help your daughter. There was different varieties for sleep disorders, anxiety etc. I told the gal that ran the store that I'm currently taking some from Colorado and she said her mother has her son bring her some from there to help treat her mother that has Alzheimer's, I guess I'm not that strange after all.

Take care lady!

Definitely going to try it, she is just cutting down on her antidepressant, got to spend a couple of months making sure she is the right level for that before adding something else into the mix.

I may get my sister to bring some out.

[jkwilliams]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Definitely going to try it, she is just cutting down on her antidepressant, got to spend a couple of months making sure she is the right level for that before adding something else into the mix.

I may get my sister to bring some out.

My son's psychiatrist suggested he try CBD oil for depression and anxiety (my poor kids get it from both sides of the family). I know it's available in Utah, but we haven't done it yet.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

My son's psychiatrist suggested he try CBD oil for depression and anxiety (my poor kids get it from both sides of the family). I know it's available in Utah, but we haven't done it yet.

Good to know.  Did they recommend a certain kind?

I may be using it first.  Something has trigger pretty constant nausea for me and there is no drug I can currently do without, so I need to find a substitute...or find someone else to be on call for Mom so I can go back to having unpredictable days.

[Eek!]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:39 PM, Calm said:

Something has trigger pretty constant nausea for me and there is no drug I can currently do without, so I need to find a substitute...

When my kids were little, they loved to visit Jazzland amusement park, about an hour from where we lived in New Orleans.  They especially loved the two fastest-spinning rides, and we had our own names for them:  the Whirl-'n'-Hurl and the Upchuckulator.   The spinning didn't bother them at all but oboy it bothered me.  Unfortunately my kids really liked it when Dad came along on the rides with them.  Ugggh.

Around this time I took some Shiatsu classes.  In the Chinese meridian system, the Stomach Meridian begins just below the eye, on the cheekbone directly below the pupil if you are looking forward.  You can tap or massage that point for relief of nausea.  There's one under each eye.  Move your finger around on your cheek bone just beneath your eye socket a bit until you find where it's most sensitive, and that's it.  If you're not sure, just kinda do that whole little area and you'll get it. 

So I tried working the Stomach Meridian point just below my eye before and during those rides.  It always helped.  I can't say that I was totally free from all stomach discomfort every time, but the urge to purge would normally reach about 8 or 9 (on a 1-to-10 scale, with 10 being the point of no return), and once I started working the Stomach Meridian it never got above a 4 or 5 and was usually lower than that. 

I also found that working that first Stomach Meridian point helps with fear, the kind you feel in the pit of your stomach.  One of my kids had a fear of heights and I had him work that point while he was at the base of a ladder he was afraid to climb, while he was in the middle of feeling the fear.  After maybe 30 seconds I told him to stop and asked how he felt now, and his answer was to immediately climb the ladder like it was nothing.   When he got a little older he would practice twirling his his bo staff while walking along a 1" diameter pipe which was the top rail of a metal fence, so apparently the cure was permanent. 

 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Eek!

[Calm]

Thanks. I have tried the one in the thumb joint but hadn’t heard about that one. 

[Eek!]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thanks. I have tried the one in the thumb joint but hadn’t heard about that one. 

The point inside of where your innermost thumb bone joins your wrist, in the pit of that "V" it forms with your hand bone that leads to your index finger, that spot is for headaches.  Find the spot and angle that hurts the most, and that's it.  You don't have to explore your pain threshold but use a bit of pressure.  One day a member of the Bishopric was having a bad headache and he had to conduct Sacrament meeting so I quickly worked that spot on him and his headache went away.  Then suddenly he looked at me like I'd just cast a voodoo spell.  Ha! 

Edited June 24, 2018 by Eek!

[flameburns623]

Interesting article. Religious participation redicrs suicide among women. (Emphasis on Catholic women):

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-church-attendance-suicide-20160629-snap-story.html

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Eek! said:

The point inside of where your innermost thumb bone joins your wrist, in the pit of that "V" it forms with your hand bone that leads to your index finger, that spot is for headaches.  Find the spot and angle that hurts the most, and that's it.  You don't have to explore your pain threshold but use a bit of pressure.  One day a member of the Bishopric was having a bad headache and he had to conduct Sacrament meeting so I quickly worked that spot on him and his headache went away.  Then suddenly he looked at me like I'd just cast a voodoo spell.  Ha! 

 

9 hours ago, Eek! said:

When my kids were little, they loved to visit Jazzland amusement park, about an hour from where we lived in New Orleans.  They especially loved the two fastest-spinning rides, and we had our own names for them:  the Whirl-'n'-Hurl and the Upchuckulator.   The spinning didn't bother them at all but oboy it bothered me.  Unfortunately my kids really liked it when Dad came along on the rides with them.  Ugggh.

Around this time I took some Shiatsu classes.  In the Chinese meridian system, the Stomach Meridian begins just below the eye, on the cheekbone directly below the pupil if you are looking forward.  You can tap or massage that point for relief of nausea.  There's one under each eye.  Move your finger around on your cheek bone just beneath your eye socket a bit until you find where it's most sensitive, and that's it.  If you're not sure, just kinda do that whole little area and you'll get it. 

So I tried working the Stomach Meridian point just below my eye before and during those rides.  It always helped.  I can't say that I was totally free from all stomach discomfort every time, but the urge to purge would normally reach about 8 or 9 (on a 1-to-10 scale, with 10 being the point of no return), and once I started working the Stomach Meridian it never got above a 4 or 5 and was usually lower than that. 

I also found that working that first Stomach Meridian point helps with fear, the kind you feel in the pit of your stomach.  One of my kids had a fear of heights and I had him work that point while he was at the base of a ladder he was afraid to climb, while he was in the middle of feeling the fear.  After maybe 30 seconds I told him to stop and asked how he felt now, and his answer was to immediately climb the ladder like it was nothing.   When he got a little older he would practice twirling his his bo staff while walking along a 1" diameter pipe which was the top rail of a metal fence, so apparently the cure was permanent. 

 

Good to know!!

[Jeanne]

On 6/13/2018 at 2:31 PM, Tacenda said:

I have permission to share this story about a recent suicide. Just wanted to share it......😢

I retired last week. A day later, a former co-worker committed suicide. A good friend who I had helped move a couple of times and really tried to stay close..yet apart because of her reactivation into the church. She was 65. Been married twice with two children. The second marriage was a Temple marriage and one she just could not get over. He just left her ..she would be so happy then I would find her outside in tears because she simply could not get over this man. She stayed away from the church for many years after this marriage..but always believed. As an ex Mormon I was careful because I really loved her and cared about her. I did not go to places in my life where I learned about different aspects of the church or shared with her those things that disconnected me from her own beliefs.. In the turmoil of getting herself together..her father always made her feel less than.. I do not have a clue why he would think that. She was a wonderful mother. She was so talented..in music...in making cakes..(winning an awardsJ)!! and in her creativity in sewing and imagination..so talented and on top of all that ...a nurse.  In any case, she said one day..I will go back to the bishop..confess my sins..and get back to the Tempe that I love. Knowing this is the worse thing she could do...I still kept my mouth shut..and said ...remember you have genuine friends that love you..in perfection nor not. This went on for months..and she was quiet most of the time..and then she was gone. So...you celestial people here...tell me..tell me..that I could not have made a difference...or tell me that there we things I did not uonderstand..just tell me..that there is a reason why I have planned walks with her in my retirement days that will no longer be. I sound selfish...with suicide I am. I miss my sister..my brother in law..and other people in my circle of life who have died of suicide...I am angry again.

Tacenda quoted this from me  It has been rough...but I have sneeked in here to get some advice..(been banned for 18 days)..I thank all of you for your contribution.  There is more to it than all of this..but safe to say that I am dealing with it as well as her family.  Broke my heart and yes, I feel selfish that I still hold on to the anger..but from experience I know that all this will go the way of love and forgiveness in some very wonderful memories.  May none of you have to go through this ever.  Thank you.

[jkwilliams]

16 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Tacenda quoted this from me  It has been rough...but I have sneeked in here to get some advice..(been banned for 18 days)..I thank all of you for your contribution.  There is more to it than all of this..but safe to say that I am dealing with it as well as her family.  Broke my heart and yes, I feel selfish that I still hold on to the anger..but from experience I know that all this will go the way of love and forgiveness in some very wonderful memories.  May none of you have to go through this ever.  Thank you.

Thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry things have been rough for you. It's always great to see you. I wondered where you were. I don't know how you got banned, but I'm glad you're back.

[Jeanne]

43 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Thank you for sharing that. I'm sorry things have been rough for you. It's always great to see you. I wondered where you were. I don't know how you got banned, but I'm glad you're back.

Trom what I have read..I am so glad you are here!! 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Jeanne said:

Trom what I have read..I am so glad you are here!! 

I'm more of a drive-by poster. I'll come in when I see something interesting, stick around a few days, and then remember that nothing I say matters at all and go on my merry way.

[flameburns623]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Tacenda quoted this from me  It has been rough...but I have sneeked in here to get some advice..(been banned for 18 days)..I thank all of you for your contribution.  There is more to it than all of this..but safe to say that I am dealing with it as well as her family.  Broke my heart and yes, I feel selfish that I still hold on to the anger..but from experience I know that all this will go the way of love and forgiveness in some very wonderful memories.  May none of you have to go through this ever.  Thank you.

Sorry to hear hiw difficult things have been. Trite as it is to say, you are in my prayers. 

[Jeanne]

54 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

Sorry to hear hiw difficult things have been. Trite as it is to say, you are in my prayers. 

Thank you ...trite it is not...and I will take your prayers.