Fullness of the Gentiles Has Come and Gone?

[Bernard Gui]

Jesus told the Nephites

Quote

3Nephi 16:10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

Do you think this day has come or is there more to be done? Are the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the gospel? If so, how and when will the fullness of the gospel be brought to the house of Israel?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[CMZ]

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/joint-statement-first-presidency-naacp-national-leadership?cid=HP_TH-17-5-2018_dPAD_fMNWS_xLIDyL1-B3_

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2018/06/commemorating-the-1978-revelation/extending-the-blessings-of-the-priesthood?lang=eng&_r=1&cid=HP_WE-16-5-2018_dPTH_fLHNA_xLIDyL2-2_

[CMZ]

Quote

Matthew 22

1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

 

Edited May 20, 2018 by CMZ

[CMZ]

I was at a small-ish meeting in February 2007 that Elder Bednar was speaking at and he was talking about people from Africa and elsewhere coming into the Church and how they might not have the same cultural traditions that we do but that if we think because of that that they are not living the Gospel properly then we have have it all wrong.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Jesus told the Nephites

Do you think this day has come or is there more to be done? Are the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the gospel? If so, how and when will the fullness of the gospel be brought to the house of Israel?

It is a process, and we are witnessing it now.  However, the Lord will not come to Israel in person and show his wounds until the very last day of the coming conflict.

Zech 13:6 "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

D&C 45:39-44,47-53,  "And it shall come to pass that he that feareth me shall be looking forth for the great day of the Lord to come, even for the signs of the coming of the Son of Man.  And they shall see signs and wonders, for they shall be shown forth in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath.  And they shall behold blood, and fire, and vapors of smoke.  And before the day of the Lord shall come, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon be turned into blood, and the stars fall from heaven.  And the remnant shall be gathered unto this place;  And then they shall look for me, and, behold, I will come; and they shall see me in the clouds of heaven, clothed with power and great glory; with all the holy angels; and he that watches not for me shall be cut off. ...................

"Then shall the arm of the Lord fall upon the nations.  And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount [of Olives], and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble, and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.  And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.  And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.  And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?  Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.  And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king."

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, CMZ said:

I was at a small-ish meeting in February 2007 that Elder Bednar was speaking at and he was talking about people from Africa and elsewhere coming into the Church and how they might not have the same cultural traditions that we do but that if we think because of that that they are not living the Gospel properly then we have have it all wrong.

It has been my personal experience that the Church desperately needs the leavening of the African (in its broadest sense) Saints! In some cases, I expect them to be one of the central causes of carrying off the Church triumphant. The Lord knows what He is doing.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Jesus told the Nephites

Do you think this day has come or is there more to be done? Are the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the gospel? If so, how and when will the fullness of the gospel be brought to the house of Israel?

It has barely started.

We can overcome secular humanism with Theistic Humanism if we see it that way.  Humanism is about the perfection of humanity- ever heard of that idea before? 

Humanism says "Man created God".  We do them one better- we say "Man IS God BECAUSE God is Man!

If God is Man, humanism becomes theology!

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Maidservant]

///shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations///

I am sorry to be vague because I don't know how much I dare say without heading into politics, but I find this statement to be unutterably plain and have thought so for some time now.

[Jeremy Shimmer]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Jesus told the Nephites

Do you think this day has come or is there more to be done? Are the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the gospel? If so, how and when will the fullness of the gospel be brought to the house of Israel?

I think we're getting very close, and the Jews are getting close to the receiving it.

[Maidservant]

This is what I understand to be the fullness of the Gospel:

4th Nephi 1-18

They did also receive the Holy Ghost; . . . there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another. And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift . . . peace in the land. And there were great and marvelous works wrought . . . they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of miracles did they work among the children of men . . . they did build cities again where there had been cities burned . . . there was no contention among all the people, in all the land . . . because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people. And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God. There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God. And how blessed were they! For the Lord did bless them in all their doings.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, CMZ said:

I was at a small-ish meeting in February 2007 that Elder Bednar was speaking at and he was talking about people from Africa and elsewhere coming into the Church and how they might not have the same cultural traditions that we do but that if we think because of that that they are not living the Gospel properly then we have have it all wrong.

Could you explain what that has to do with my question? Is that part of the fulness of the Gentiles? How about most of Asia and the Middle East?

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is a process, and we are witnessing it now.  However, the Lord will not come to Israel in person and show his wounds until the very last day of the coming conflict.

Zech 13:6 "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

D&C 45:39-44,47-53,  "And it shall come to pass that he that feareth me shall be looking forth for the great day of the Lord to come, even for the signs of the coming of the Son of Man.  And they shall see signs and wonders, for they shall be shown forth in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath.  And they shall behold blood, and fire, and vapors of smoke.  And before the day of the Lord shall come, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon be turned into blood, and the stars fall from heaven.  And the remnant shall be gathered unto this place;  And then they shall look for me, and, behold, I will come; and they shall see me in the clouds of heaven, clothed with power and great glory; with all the holy angels; and he that watches not for me shall be cut off. ...................

"Then shall the arm of the Lord fall upon the nations.  And then shall the Lord set his foot upon this mount [of Olives], and it shall cleave in twain, and the earth shall tremble, and reel to and fro, and the heavens also shall shake.  And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.  And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.  And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet?  Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.  And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king."

I had an interesting experience with a Jewish friend when I showed him that scripture. 

Do you think the "slow down" of missionary work in the US and Europe is a sign of the end of the fulness of the Gentiles?

Edited May 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It has barely started.

We can overcome secular humanism with Theistic Humanism if we see it that way.  Humanism is about the perfection of humanity- ever heard of that idea before? 

Humanism says "Man created God".  We do them one better- we say "Man IS God BECAUSE God is Man!

If God is Man, humanism becomes theology!

 

Who are you going to convince of that? Will it make Joseph Smith acceptable then?

Edited May 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

///shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations///

I am sorry to be vague because I don't know how much I dare say without heading into politics, but I find this statement to be unutterably plain and have thought so for some time now.

Could you please explain what unutterably plain means? Without going into politics, of course.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

This is what I understand to be the fullness of the Gospel:

4th Nephi 1-18

They did also receive the Holy Ghost; . . . there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another. And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift . . . peace in the land. And there were great and marvelous works wrought . . . they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of miracles did they work among the children of men . . . they did build cities again where there had been cities burned . . . there was no contention among all the people, in all the land . . . because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people. And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God. There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God. And how blessed were they! For the Lord did bless them in all their doings.

OK. How does that relate to Jesus' prophecy about the Gentile fulness?

[Robert F. Smith]

21 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

........................................ 

Do you think the "slow down" of missionary work in the US and Europe is a sign of the end of the fulness of the Gentiles?

Probably not.  More like regional sociological disjunctions in a part of the world increasingly secular (except for the Islamic expanision into Europe).  Most people live elsewhere anyhow -- India, China, and Africa.  If anything, missionary work will be vastly increasing.  Africa is showing remarkable growth, and baptisms in Russian have been increasing.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[CMZ]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could you explain what that has to do with my question? Is that part of the fulness of the Gentiles? How about most of Asia and the Middle East?

 

I'm not ruling them out, only giving a quote about a different group. And if I remember correctly he might have been talking about anyone outside of the Wasatch Front mold.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 minute ago, CMZ said:

And if I remember correctly he might have been talking about anyone outside of the Wasatch Front mold.

Elder Bednar was here for a priesthood training meeting a bit over three years ago. He told us that if we were too attached to the Church as it now looks, we were in trouble. The emerging Church, he said, will be unrecognisable to us, so we'd better be converted to the Lord, not current Church culture. I don't remember the exact words after that, but they were something along the lines of the Lord having only just finished laying the foundation of the Restoration.

[sunstoned]

I don't think we can draw any conclusions or even any reliable extrapolations from current membership numbers.  At less than 1% of the world's population, membership numbers are far too small to have any meaning impact on any world affairs.  

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It has been my personal experience that the Church desperately needs the leavening of the African (in its broadest sense) Saints! In some cases, I expect them to be one of the central causes of carrying off the Church triumphant. The Lord knows what He is doing.

I hope all the leaven gives us a good loaf

[Avatar4321]

17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Elder Bednar was here for a priesthood training meeting a bit over three years ago. He told us that if we were too attached to the Church as it now looks, we were in trouble. The emerging Church, he said, will be unrecognisable to us, so we'd better be converted to the Lord, not current Church culture. I don't remember the exact words after that, but they were something along the lines of the Lord having only just finished laying the foundation of the Restoration.

Perhaps it might be better in another thread but what should we expect the Church to look like? What happens when we move off th foundation and start putting the structure up?

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I hope all the leaven gives us a good loaf

I suspect in the end it may be an entire bakery!

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Perhaps it might be better in another thread but what should we expect the Church to look like?

'Unrecognisable'?

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I don't think we can draw any conclusions or even any reliable extrapolations from current membership numbers.  At less than 1% of the world's population, membership numbers are far too small to have any meaning impact on any world affairs.  

Yes, one could see it that way, but the world has about as many Jews as it has Latter-day Saints. Would you argue that the minority status of the tribe of Judah means that they have no meaningful impact on world affairs?  I don't think you could, in all honesty.

Further, are you sure that the current membership numbers of LDS in the world mean that we don't have any meaningful impact on world affairs?  Perhaps not an obvious one -- but even when the Jews were in diaspora they had an disproportionate impact upon the world, something that was noticed and militated against (witness the pogroms in slavic countries, the holocaust in germanic ones, and laws everywhere which made it difficult for Jews in many ways).    A little leaven causes the entire loaf to rise, after all.

And if you want to make the argument that only a fraction of LDS are believing, active members, and this dilutes our impact, one could make a similar argument for the Jews, many of whom are unbelievers, and this applies even in Israel. 

Another interesting parallel occurs to me, and that is the placement of the largest concentration of Jews upon the planet.  It's in the arid land of Palestine; which is where the largest concentration of LDS is located, arid Utah.  I wonder if that parallelism was something that God intended?  Is there something about aridity here?  

[Maidservant]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could you please explain what unutterably plain means? Without going into politics, of course.

 

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

OK. How does that relate to Jesus' prophecy about the Gentile fulness?

 No, I don't think I can say more without being controversial, at least.  Or maybe I'm misjudging the board; I know it would be fighting words where I live, ha ha.  But since you asked, I will say more, and let's see what happens.

To me that description describes to a T the United States; or at least those structures going under the name of the United States that warmonger, oppress, and plunder all across the earth.  (Of course, this is not every person in the United States.)  The United States (or its government, military, capitalism, etc--not every single thing or body--but the structures and ideas that are ruling and that create this state of things) ARE the Gadianton Robbers, at least metaphorically, but possibly literally, as I am of the opinion that their doings are built upon combinations and oaths.  This in my mind also fits with the template(s) given in the Book of Mormon (i.e. those things described of Zarahemla and the hegemonous culture of that time and place).

You didn't quote the 'fulness of the Gentiles' in your OP, but the prophecy does give that phrase in verse 4.  Let's just say that, barring a large repentance, the United States and those ideas and structures are past their fullness and heading into their fall (or as I say).  It is and will be intense, but I'm not sorry; I'm relieved.

In this prophecy, the term 'house of Israel' is used.  This term does NOT refer to Jews nor to the state of Israel, at least not specifically or only, or as it seems to me.  Not saying that you are saying that, but I have heard this interpretation before.  In fact, this usage and its meaning is something that I would ask myself to ponder more on.  If I had already done so, I would share the results of my pondering, but as it is, I am coming to this fresh so my views are undeveloped and off the cuff (except for that original bolded statement--have thought about that for a looong time).  If anything, the passage seems to refer to the North and South American indigenous populations; and indeed, that is where the fulness of the Gentiles began, was their (bloody and exploitative) engagement with the land and its people (biz as usual perhaps, not to condemn people so much as condemning ideas and ways that reign/ed and that we are cooked in and call righteousness because the scales were not off our eyes then and perhaps still are not).  But I suggest that 'Israel' or 'house of Israel' is a much wider template or pattern that goes across and from within our current ethnic and political lines and describes any who would participate in covenants and/or any who would participate as a watchman v 18 (which is a marvelous work and wonder I see happening far beyond the confines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but which I believe The Church has been the leaven in the earth).  It also describes any who have suffered from or been troubled by this pride and abomination of the "the Gentiles" (the United States and its warmongering and exploitation).

And what is that participation (and covenant)? That participation is in the peace and unity (the fullness of the Gospel) as described by 4th Nephi and also mentioned in this passage 18-20, the bringing of Zion within all nations: "Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing, for they shall see eye to eye when the Lord shall bring again Zion. Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Lord hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God."

Keep in mind that Zion was also Moses' project, not to mention Abraham, Noah, Enoch, all the prophets; so to remember those covenants of the house of Israel does not mean to elevate an ethnic group, but to elevate the principles of the covenant(s) for EVERYONE as they were always meant to be, so that we may finally enjoy the fruit, the consequences, of seeds planted long ago and nourished through various time, circumstance, and people through much 'bad weather'; and miraculously survived so that we may still tap into them and enjoy the harvest--fulness.

In verse 12, we are reminded that the powers of death and captivity (as represented by the Gentiles) will not have power over those who wish to wage peace and Zion (represented by the house of Israel).

This is not a prophecy about LDS missionary work per se, although that may be the least expression of it.  This is a hope and template for the transformation of the whole world.

I believe that the main purpose of The Book of Mormon is to be the catalyst to end bloodshed and captivity (oppression) on this planet--if we will heed it.  This passage seems to go in theme to that.

There is one wording in this passage that interests me and I don't understand.  Perhaps you or anyone might have an insight?  It is in that verse 10 "and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."  I find it curious, the use of the verb 'bring'.  I have always read it as the fullness of the gospel taken or removed, but that isn't actually what it says OR--would it be in an older usage of the word 'bring'?  Because as it says to me, 'bring' means for something to be taken TO, created from or arisen from, or something similarly more positive.  Thus to me it seems to read that in the darkest hour (reject the fulness) that some good arises (bring the fulness).  That seems counterintuitive.  Or maybe its the secret in the sauce?

Those of us who align ourselves under the house of Israel--which is the opportunity of EVERYONE regardless of worldly designations, lineages, loyalties, etc, which God intends to dissolve (exhibit: the Be One celebration)--will be gathered, will be protected, will be able to create our Zion--precisely because we have not placed our other loyalties above the loyalty to the Zion/Christ--one heart, one mind.  To each other.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the great example of this, but I don't believe it will be the only or final mechanism of this; and as Brother Hamba Tuban said, even the Church not going to look like anything we imagined before.

It will look better.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Maidservant

[CV75]

15 hours ago, CMZ said:

I was at a small-ish meeting in February 2007 that Elder Bednar was speaking at and he was talking about people from Africa and elsewhere coming into the Church and how they might not have the same cultural traditions that we do but that if we think because of that that they are not living the Gospel properly then we have have it all wrong.

They were ministering long ago; I think this is where the current initiative came from.