Tribes And Lineage And Birthright.... On My!

[BookofMormonLuvr]

So continuing from the "White Men" thread...
 

BlueDreams, on 28 Mar 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Eeyup, I'd say so....or at least assume so, I'm still not exactly sure what you think the House of Israel is and your view of the prophetic nature of tribal lineage. Or how you view the D+C augmenting your ideas. Mine are pretty straight forward. You learn your lineage from receiving your PB. You can be either descended from blood or by adoption, it doesn't make much of a diff. The tribe is not necessitated by where your family originates, whether most of them have had another tribe proclaimed, etc. 

 

And I wouldn't expect your view to alter whether I believed you or I were siblings in Christ. I just find the idea preposterous. Even wikipedia makes it sound pretty sketch. And even though I've hear basic muttering about this or that random nation having more blessings proclaimed from various lost tribes,  etc. But never that ephraim was largely holed up in the british isles somewhere. And for LDS I don't think that can really fly.

 

With luv,

BD

 

To me the House of Israel is the physical Twelve Tribes, blood or adopted.

Many of the restored church seem to have adopted a sort of Restoration version of "replacement theology" believing that the church is the House of Israel. I believe the restored church in simply a vehicle for gathering the Tribes.

I believe in the birthright principle given to Israel and that Ephraim holds that birthright. With the birthright comes the responsibility to care for the members of the other tribes, thus the birthright tribe is given a double-inheritance.

The reason that most early converts to the church were from the British Isles and were converted and gathered first is precisely because they were of Ephraim, the birthright tribe, and the Lord had to gather them in order to put them into their leadership positions to watch over and care for the other tribes as they are converted and gathered in their order.

I believe that it is plainly manifest by its abundance of blessings that the USA (Promised Land/ Land of Joseph) is now the land of the birthright tribe of Ephraim and has received its double inheritance to care for other tribes spread throughout the world (foreign aid)

Immediately, after the restoration Judah began to gather to their own land for the purposes of the LORD, as prophecy fortells there will be two "headquarters".

This is where I believe the church took a misstep that it still hasn't fully realized or corrected...

The next to be preached to shoud have been the Lamanites (Mannesah) (Midwest Native Americans (Cherokee/Algonquin) in order to complete the gathering of the reunited Tribe of Joseph. YAH, in the D&C, tells the church to take the Gospel to the Lamanites. If they had heeded that counsel, I believe that New Jerusalem would've been built prepatory to the gathering of the other Tribes. (3 Nephi 21:22-26)

Instead, we all have run ahead of YAH, converting Tribes in foreign lands and leaving them without anywhere to gather to or hope of gathering.

I believe LDS and RLDS patriarchs have been too loose in declaring people from the Tribe of Ephraim. If everyone is of Ephraim, how in the world do the other tribes come into play? Some patriarchs are more careful in ascribing tribes though. my wife, who is part Cherokee, was told Levi- and it has only been recently discovered that Levite DNA markers are had among leading Cherokee tribal families- from which she descends.

Anyway, I believe this disordered missionary effort is a principle reason we don't have the city of refuge, Zion, built yet as a place of safety in the last days.

My prayer is that the restored church (all the Branches) will repent, turn their missionary efforts to the Lamanites of North America and get back to the pattern. When they are converted and gathered Zion can be built- but not until then. (3 Nephi 21:22-26)

**This was quick and off the top of my head, I will add scriptures and clarifications as I reread what I wrote. **

Edited March 28, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Avatar4321]

I have seen no evidence that we've neglected our outreach to the Native Americans in both North and South America.

[JLHPROF]

So continuing from the "White Men" thread...

 

To me the House of Israel is the physical Twelve Tribes, blood or adopted.

Many of the restored church seem to have adopted a sort of Restoration version of "replacement theology" believing that the church is the House of Israel. I believe the restored church in simply a vehicle for gathering the Tribes.

I believe in the birthright principle given to Israel and that Ephraim holds that birthright. With the birthright comes the responsibility to care for the members of the other tribes, thus the birthright tribe is given a double-inheritance.

 

 

All true.  The Church is also incorrectly identified as "The Kingdom of God on Earth" as well as being incorrectly identified as "The House of Israel".

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I have seen no evidence that we've neglected our outreach to the Native Americans in both North and South America.

To South and Central Native peoples the churches of the Restoration have done well. To the North American Natives not so much, especially with the Midwest tribes (whom YAH called us to preach to in the D&C)- Most missionary work has been confined to Southwest tribes.

The real fun will begin (the work of the Father) when the Algonquin/Cherokee nations start to convert en masse.

 

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Note: I said the missionary efforts of the churches were disordered (out of order/sequence)- I did not say they were unsuccessful or bad.

[Coreyb]

I taught tons of cherokee in Oklahoma. Not many were very interested

[CV75]

The next to be preached to shoud have been the Lamanites (Mannesah) (Midwest Native Americans (Cherokee/Algonquin) in order to complete the gathering of the reunited Tribe of Joseph. YAH, in the D&C, tells the church to take the Gospel to the Lamanites. If they had heeded that counsel, I believe that New Jerusalem would've been built prepatory to the gathering of the other Tribes. (3 Nephi 21:22-26)

Instead, we all have run ahead of YAH, converting Tribes in foreign lands and leaving them without anywhere to gather to or hope of gathering.

This is not the same as a “remnant of the seed of Joseph” which can refer to his descendants through Ephraim, Manasseh, Lehi or any other “Josephite” that came to live in the Americas, which is of course a key focus of the Book or Mormon. Josephites could have reasonably come to the Americas with the Mayflower and "other Gentiles" as well as Lehi, all being a remnant of the seed of Joseph. The Lehites/lamanites are not the sole remnant.

And a “remnant of the seed of Joseph” could live just about anywhere in this world, including “the isles of the sea” and intermingle with any other Israelite or Gentile group.

So it seem that the remanant of the seed of Joseph were being proselyted all along.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This is not the same as a “remnant of the seed of Joseph” which can refer to his descendants through Ephraim, Manasseh, Lehi or any other “Josephite” that came to live in the Americas, which is of course a key focus of the Book or Mormon. Josephites could have reasonably come to the Americas with the Mayflower and "other Gentiles" as well as Lehi, all being a remnant of the seed of Joseph. The Lehites/lamanites are not the sole remnant.

And a “remnant of the seed of Joseph” could live just about anywhere in this world, including “the isles of the sea” and intermingle with any other Israelite or Gentile group.

So it seem that the remanant of the seed of Joseph were being proselyted all along.

 

I believe the Book of Mormon makes clear that it is referring to those inhabitants already here when Ephraim arrived.

Again, I am sharing what I believe, not insisting you believe likewise.

And, my criticism is of all the branches of the restored church not anyone specific. We have ALL failed in this regard. That fact that we haven't had much success with them shows that we are lacking something YAH requires of us to bring them back into the Household of Israel.

I believe Zion will continue to languish until some group of Saints figures this out turns to YAH in repentance, and goes out in power to convert the blood Lamanites (Mannesah) found in the Algonquin/Cherokee people. When the right people with the right spirit go to them, they will receive the restored gospel and become the people they are called to be that will instruments in building the city Zion.

 

[Okrahomer]

I taught tons of cherokee in Oklahoma. Not many were very interested

 

Nevertheless, many are interested.  And I'm also speaking from personal experience, which includes having a convert Cherokee brother-in-law who has been on the High Council and currently serves as 1st Counselor in the Bishopric.

[CV75]

I believe the Book of Mormon makes clear that it is referring to those inhabitants already here when Ephraim arrived.

Again, I am sharing what I believe, not insisting you believe likewise.

And, my criticism is of all the branches of the restored church not anyone specific. We have ALL failed in this regard. That fact that we haven't had much success with them shows that we are lacking something YAH requires of us to bring them back into the Household of Israel.

I believe Zion will continue to languish until some group of Saints figures this out turns to YAH in repentance, and goes out in power to convert the blood Lamanites (Mannesah) found in the Algonquin/Cherokee people. When the right people with the right spirit go to them, they will receive the restored gospel and become the people they are called to be that will instruments in building the city Zion.

Yes, we are just sharing beliefs. In many cases, the Book of Mormon speaks of and to the remnant of the seed of Joseph in terms of the Lehite/Lamanite line.

But it also says more than that. Ether 13:6-8 shows the type, which is applicable to the Lehites as well as others. While the Lehites came directly out of Jerusalem (after spending a few years in the wilderness), others of the remnant came out of Jerusalem by another route than Lehi took, and into other areas and through millennia before arriving in the Americas.

3 Nephi 5:20-23 expands from describing Moroni as a literal descendant of Lehi (Joseph) to describing a more general consideration of the seed of Joseph to yet another description of “a remnant of the seed of Joseph.” Again, this refers to more than just Lehites.

Alma 46:23-24 presents the Lehites as the preserved remnant of Joseph’s torn coat, but also any of the seed of Joseph that are “preserved by the hand of God, and …taken unto himself.” So other descendants are covered also.

So I think our responsibility to “the blood Lamanites (Mannesah) found in the Algonquin/Cherokee people” can also be broadened, even though the Algonquin/Cherokee people may well be the blood of the Lamanites (Manasseh).

I agree that repentance is always good and that our proselyting efforts are constantly being improved.

[mfbukowski]

So continuing from the "White Men" thread...

 

BlueDreams, on 28 Mar 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

 

To me the House of Israel is the physical Twelve Tribes, blood or adopted.

Many of the restored church seem to have adopted a sort of Restoration version of "replacement theology" believing that the church is the House of Israel. I believe the restored church in simply a vehicle for gathering the Tribes.

I believe in the birthright principle given to Israel and that Ephraim holds that birthright. With the birthright comes the responsibility to care for the members of the other tribes, thus the birthright tribe is given a double-inheritance.

The reason that most early converts to the church were from the British Isles and were converted and gathered first is precisely because they were of Ephraim, the birthright tribe, and the Lord had to gather them in order to put them into their leadership positions to watch over and care for the other tribes as they are converted and gathered in their order.

I believe that it is plainly manifest by its abundance of blessings that the USA (Promised Land/ Land of Joseph) is now the land of the birthright tribe of Ephraim and has received its double inheritance to care for other tribes spread throughout the world (foreign aid)

Immediately, after the restoration Judah began to gather to their own land for the purposes of the LORD, as prophecy fortells there will be two "headquarters".

This is where I believe the church took a misstep that it still hasn't fully realized or corrected...

The next to be preached to shoud have been the Lamanites (Mannesah) (Midwest Native Americans (Cherokee/Algonquin) in order to complete the gathering of the reunited Tribe of Joseph. YAH, in the D&C, tells the church to take the Gospel to the Lamanites. If they had heeded that counsel, I believe that New Jerusalem would've been built prepatory to the gathering of the other Tribes. (3 Nephi 21:22-26)

Instead, we all have run ahead of YAH, converting Tribes in foreign lands and leaving them without anywhere to gather to or hope of gathering.

I believe LDS and RLDS patriarchs have been too loose in declaring people from the Tribe of Ephraim. If everyone is of Ephraim, how in the world do the other tribes come into play? Some patriarchs are more careful in ascribing tribes though. my wife, who is part Cherokee, was told Levi- and it has only been recently discovered that Levite DNA markers are had among leading Cherokee tribal families- from which she descends.

Anyway, I believe this disordered missionary effort is a principle reason we don't have the city of refuge, Zion, built yet as a place of safety in the last days.

My prayer is that the restored church (all the Branches) will repent, turn their missionary efforts to the Lamanites of North America and get back to the pattern. When they are converted and gathered Zion can be built- but not until then. (3 Nephi 21:22-26)

**This was quick and off the top of my head, I will add scriptures and clarifications as I reread what I wrote. **

I think this is naive and literalistic and has no basis in science. 

As I said on the other thread:

 

When you understand how lines die out and which ones continue, one's perspective can change radically.  Few know that if you are of European ancestry, you are probably a descendent of Charlemagne.  That's one individual, who lived 8 HUNDRED years ago.  Imagine how many descendents a TRIBE could have over 3 or 4 THOUSAND years.

 

We are probably all actual descendents of someone from ALL of the tribes of Israel, when you start calculating how many ancestors you have had over the last couple of thousand years.

 

And if that is true, PB's tell us both what types of blessings we receive and also actually might be scientifically accurate, if indeed the blood of all of Israel is in our veins.  

 

If we are a descendent of all the tribes, since say, Ephraim is one of the tribes, yes we are a literal descendent of Ephraim, but then so is nearly everyone else. 

 

All God would have to do is tweak which line had the most offspring, and over a few thousand generations, the blood of Israel could easily be in every person on earth.

 

So I am not too worried about tribes or what tribe I am "really" from- to be so concerned is just plain silly in my view.  Take your pick, and you are probably right.

 

Everybody should take care of everybody- no one has a special mandate because of what "tribe" he as born into.  And then you throw in "adoption" as well.

 

So if you were born into, or spiritually adopted into  Ephraim, you have a special responsibility to care for others, and all members of the church are in this category.

 

Complex and convoluted.

 

Let's just say that everyone in the church has a special responsibility to care for others as representatives of Christ!  Why mess around with the tribal silliness at all??

 

The second great commandment is "Love they neighbor as thyself". 

 

No need for tribes.  Love everyone and preach the gospel of love to everyone. 

 

Gee I know that sounds familiar....

 

But that doesn't make us special, does it??

Edited March 29, 2014 by mfbukowski

[BookofMormonLuvr]

We obviously have different ideas. I will humbly refrain from labeling your views.

[CV75]

Let's just say that everyone in the church has a special responsibility to care for others as representatives of Christ!  Why mess around with the tribal silliness at all??

 

The second great commandment is "Love they neighbor as thyself". 

 

No need for tribes.  Love everyone and preach the gospel of love to everyone.

I think tribal designation actually facilitates loving one another if received and acted upon in the spirit in which it is made. It is not meant to be any more divisive than different families in a larger community, or the various parts of the body as part of the whole (1 Corinthians 12).

[Tiki]

So continuing from the "White Men" thread...

 

BlueDreams, on 28 Mar 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

 

To me the House of Israel is the physical Twelve Tribes, blood or adopted.

Many of the restored church seem to have adopted a sort of Restoration version of "replacement theology" believing that the church is the House of Israel. I believe the restored church in simply a vehicle for gathering the Tribes.

I believe in the birthright principle given to Israel and that Ephraim holds that birthright. With the birthright comes the responsibility to care for the members of the other tribes, thus the birthright tribe is given a double-inheritance.

The reason that most early converts to the church were from the British Isles and were converted and gathered first is precisely because they were of Ephraim, the birthright tribe, and the Lord had to gather them in order to put them into their leadership positions to watch over and care for the other tribes as they are converted and gathered in their order.

I believe that it is plainly manifest by its abundance of blessings that the USA (Promised Land/ Land of Joseph) is now the land of the birthright tribe of Ephraim and has received its double inheritance to care for other tribes spread throughout the world (foreign aid)

Immediately, after the restoration Judah began to gather to their own land for the purposes of the LORD, as prophecy fortells there will be two "headquarters".This is where I believe the church took a misstep that it still hasn't fully realized or corrected...

The next to be preached to shoud have been the Lamanites (Mannesah) (Midwest Native Americans (Cherokee/Algonquin) in order to complete the gathering of the reunited Tribe of Joseph. YAH, in the D&C, tells the church to take the Gospel to the Lamanites. If they had heeded that counsel, I believe that New Jerusalem would've been built prepatory to the gathering of the other Tribes. (3 Nephi 21:22-26)

Instead, we all have run ahead of YAH, converting Tribes in foreign lands and leaving them without anywhere to gather to or hope of gathering.

I believe LDS and RLDS patriarchs have been too loose in declaring people from the Tribe of Ephraim. If everyone is of Ephraim, how in the world do the other tribes come into play? Some patriarchs are more careful in ascribing tribes though. my wife, who is part Cherokee, was told Levi- and it has only been recently discovered that Levite DNA markers are had among leading Cherokee tribal families- from which she descends.

Anyway, I believe this disordered missionary effort is a principle reason we don't have the city of refuge, Zion, built yet as a place of safety in the last days.

My prayer is that the restored church (all the Branches) will repent, turn their missionary efforts to the Lamanites of North America and get back to the pattern. When they are converted and gathered Zion can be built- but not until then. (3 Nephi 21:22-26)**This was quick and off the top of my head, I will add scriptures and clarifications as I reread what I wrote. **

Wow! fascinating! except you're wrong.

The first missionary efforts of the Church were to the Lamanites! D&C 28:8

Specifically in answer to the prayers of their fathers that the gospel would be restored to them.

13 And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him—that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be adestroyed, and the Lamanites should not be bdestroyed, that the Lord God would cpreserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be dbrought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be ebrought unto salvation—

18 And the Lord said unto me: Thy fathers have also required of me this thing; and it shall be done unto them according to their faith; for their faith was like unto thine.

I suggest you study up on Church History before you start jawing and Yah-ing about calling the Church to repentance.

[Coreyb]

Nevertheless, many are interested.  And I'm also speaking from personal experience, which includes having a convert Cherokee brother-in-law who has been on the High Council and currently serves as 1st Counselor in the Bishopric.

That's awesome! We can just speak from our own experience like guess.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Wow! fascinating! except you're wrong.

The first missionary efforts of the Church were to the Lamanites! D&C 28:8

Specifically in answer to the prayers of their fathers that the gospel would be restored to them.

13 And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him—that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be adestroyed, and the Lamanites should not be bdestroyed, that the Lord God would cpreserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be dbrought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be ebrought unto salvation—

18 And the Lord said unto me: Thy fathers have also required of me this thing; and it shall be done unto them according to their faith; for their faith was like unto thine.

I suggest you study up on Church History before you start jawing and Yah-ing about calling the Church to repentance.

Why do some of you INSIST on being jerks?? I am politely sharing what I believe, yet you feel the need to insult me and tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I have NEVER said the same thing to you. I have studied and have come to conclusions that are different.- that doesn't mean I believe you are uneducated or stupid.

Please, if you can't help but hurl insults, refuse to actually read what I have said and engage my actual points, instead of just humbly sharing your own opinion- don't bother participating in topics I start.

BTW:

I use "YAH" or "JAH" because of: Psalm 68:4 (which is unchanged in the Inspired Version)

I am not just calling the LDS church to reconsider this change in missionary focus I am directing it at ALL churches and members of the Restoration. myself included. For too many years we have let the lack of success among Native North Americans give us an excuse to essentially ignore them. We all need to repent of that, figure out WHY we were not reaching them. adjust our method, and continue trying to convert them.

[volgadon]

Why do some of you INSIST on being jerks?? I am politely sharing what I believe, yet you feel the need to insult me and tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I have NEVER said the same thing to you. I have studied and have come to conclusions that are different.- that doesn't mean I believe you are uneducated or stupid.

 

 

Tiki is a jerk to everyone.

[Calm]

I am politely sharing what I believe.

Which you were asked to do....just in case anyone has forgotten, you did not post this thread to preach.

[volgadon]

The reason that most early converts to the church were from the British Isles and were converted and gathered first is precisely because they were of Ephraim, the birthright tribe, and the Lord had to gather them in order to put them into their leadership positions to watch over and care for the other tribes as they are converted and gathered in their order.

 

 

Where is that order laid out?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Where is that order laid out?

 

People won't like this answer but tis what tis...

I believe that is something yet to be revealed (AofF 9), when we begin to convert the tribes we already have been told to go to...

Since many in other tribes have been converted, for many it will be just gathering in their order.

Edited March 29, 2014 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Tiki]

I am not just calling the LDS church to reconsider this change in missionary focus I am directing it at ALL churches and members of the Restoration. myself included. For too many years we have let the lack of success among Native North Americans give us an excuse to essentially ignore them. We all need to repent of that, figure out WHY we were not reaching them. adjust our method, and continue trying to convert them.

A so it's now changed from repent to reconsider? I love the ridiculing of people steadying the ark.

[Tiki]

Tiki is a jerk to everyone.

I bet you have a lot followers when you speak at the FAIRLDS CULT Conferences.

[BlueDreams]

So my internet went out on me today and I’ve been running straight for a couple of days as it is….and still am (end of the school year projects).

 

Thank you for explaining further, I don’t have a lot of time since I have an early morning. But here’s a few of my thoughts in no pertinent order.

 

 The first thing that comes to mind is that there’s a lot of assumptions in what you’ve posted. My first one was why is the british isles considered generally “Ephraim.” I find nothing to reinforce that but your own interpretation of things. And you’re welcome to do so, but it’s still seems holey to me if there’s little else to back it up. You did mention the members of that time largely being converts from that region. But the simpler reason would probably be that it was the one that had the more similar cultural background to the missionaries as well as the historical changes to church and religious freedom aloud for the cultural mobility to allow for restoration ideas to be taught. I have no reason to believe that the british isles were simply more Ephraim than other areas of the world. And I’ve been peaking around a little more to get a gage, beyond my gut.

 

As someone pointed out, the Lamanites were the next to be preached to. I’m not exactly sure why mid-western Natives were more pertinent than any other group of American indigenous populations. I was trying to see if I could find anything to cement this idea through perusing the JS papers and couldn’t find anything. They started preaching to indigenous pops in 1830 and were pretty liberal in describing just about any tribe as equally Lamanite. And the LDS have had a consistent (although sometimes rocky and poorly executed due to ethnocentricism/paternalistic tendencies) desire and work to preach to Native populations.  

 

 Either way, I find no reason to believe that they didn’t heed the counsel, that they have continued to heed, that the mid-west natives are any more significant than any other indigenous groups, etc. And the interpretation of the 3 Nephi verses could simply be that this work wasn’t going to be completed. I don’t doubt that it was to begin back from the beginning (which it was), but I don’t think they necessarily fumbled this (by this, I mean more than is to be expected). I do believe they heeded, their work just wasn’t excessively fruitful at that time and I obviously disagree with the gathering process.

 

I don’t believe the LDS patriarchs have been too loose in declaring the Tribe. I have no clue (nor care all too much, to be honest) what the RLDS patriarchs have done. Frankly, I’m not a patriarch and don’t feel I can say much about what they do. I believe my own tribal designation is correct and beyond that I’ve got nothin’. Could there be more tribes proclaimed more often? Sure, I don't see why not. But I think that's because the lineage lines, at this point would be fairly mixed and miniscule to begin with. Most who are blood descendant to any tribe probably have very little actually genetic contribution from the line. Plenty more are probably adopted into what is need. Since the work is largely that of gathering and prep-work that's given to Ephraim/manasseh, I don't have much of a prob with a ton being proclaimed as such. 

 

 Again, though you mean well, some of this does come off  as fairly presumptuous in claim (judging/discerning how well the missionary work is going for not only LDS but every last restorationist church….that’s a pretty big call). I don’t feel or see enough to really back the claims you’re making and find myself still wondering where in the world you're getting some of this stuff. And I see even less to assert some of the assumptions you’ve used to get there.

 

But thank you either way…I did find out some interesting historical points while digging around.

 

With luv,

BD

[volgadon]

I bet you have a lot followers when you speak at the FAIRLDS CULT Conferences.

 

Yes, I'm kind of a big deal. I'm also speaking at the Mormon Transhumanist CULT Conference this Friday if you want to stop by and say hello.

[volgadon]

 

People won't like this answer but tis what tis...

I believe that is something yet to be revealed (AofF 9), when we begin to convert the tribes we already have been told to go to...

Since many in other tribes have been converted, for many it will be just gathering in their order.

 

Fair enough.