Fullness of the Gentiles Has Come and Gone?

[Maidservant]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

"This is what I understand to be the fullness of the Gospel:"

And this:
13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day."  (3 Nephi 27)

Just curious, is gospel and 'fulness of the gospel' different things? I mean, I know they would be connected in any case, but still.  Real question.  What comes to me is that the 'fulness' of the gospel may be the harvest of truly living the gospel? Not sure.  In any case, this is also a beautiful passage and I see both passages as describing the same condition.  What we need to repent of, in a word, is that we are not One and that we are in enmity.  And if we are unclean, it is from the blood and sins and all the crazy stuff the OP passage mentioned; the 4th Nephi would be an order possible only upon repentance (which it does say in verse 1, but I didn't quote that part).  4th Nephi is a description of that 'lifting up at the last day' that is possible.  Also this passage I like 3 Ne 11:27-41

And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one . . . For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another. Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away. . .

And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth."

 

Thought also came to me . . . what is the nature of a child?  They love and play with anyone because no one told them yet why they have to hate other people (religion, skin, etc).

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Maidservant

[Calm]

Quote

Thought also came to me . . . what is the nature of a child?  They love and play with anyone because no one told them yet why they have to hate other people (religion, skin, etc).

Not really in regards to anyone.  I have known a number of young toddlers who refuse to interact with those they see as different, even to the point of refusing to go to a father after he took off his glasses in a rare moment ( usually wore them as soon as out of bed even when waking up at night).  One of my grandkids wouldn't go to my husband at all or the other grandpa, may have been the white hair or longer beards, may have been the wrinkles.  Another had an issue with darker skinned relatives even though as far as we knew no comments about skin color had ever been made in front of her.  I am talking about preverbal and barely verbal children.  Don't remember seeing this type of behaviour (or at least what I assumed was this behaviour) past three.  But older kids---4 and 5 year olds--- will provide reasons when they see segregation even if race is not discussed and being kids, their logic may be out there (such as assuming there were no black presidents due to it being illegal https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/developing-minds/201304/are-kids-racist ).  They will also tend to choose friends who they see as more like themselves, including skin color, especially if they have less opportunity to interact with multiple races.

As far as ideology or racism kind of thing, I agree that has to be taught, but noting differences and refusing to interact because of them seems inherent in some young children.

Preferences in 3 month olds have been studied:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.2006.01679.x

Edited May 22, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could you please explain what unutterably plain means? Without going into politics, of course.

Can you think of any secret abominations whoredoms or priestcrafts recently? Me too!

Edited May 22, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Can you think of any secret abominations whoredoms or priestcrafts recently? Me too!

Yep.

 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, sunstoned said:

So what would be the trigger for the end of the end of the fullness of times for the gentiles?  A dip in membership from 0.0078% to 0.0072%?  I doubt the vast majority of the living population of the world has even heard or heard enough about it to even make a decision on whether to accept or reject the message.  I think sometimes we as members (way) over estimate the level of public knowledge of the church.

Yet the time came when the prophesied destruction came upon Jerusalem and upon the Nephites/Lamanites. The day before would have been like most other days. All people have the light of Christ and will be accountable for the knowledge they have.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Maybe.  But I think we greatly over estimate our importance.  There are hundreds of christian religions out there with many millions of members. Do they count?  I think they do.

Count for what? Of course there are good people and true principles other churches, but the ordinances of salvation can only be found in one. They shall in no wise lose their reward, but only one person and one Church holds the Priesthood keys. That counts for a whole bunch. 

[CMZ]

8 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I know that...what I am saying is the gospel according to JS..may not be exactly right..and separating wheat and tares is difficult because there are a lot of human beings on this planet that have exceeding the expectations of God.

Which alternate gospel do you propose?

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

Preferences in 3 month olds have been studied:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.2006.01679.x

Preference can be flavored by hate or love. I think if innate preference is a form of racism, children can be "un-taught" if they are in a family that can leverage their innate best preferences ("submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit..." -- Mosiah 3:19). This article might imply something about the human development level of racists, and we certainly understand the spiritual level.

I see this "preference" play out in my multi-generational family, which is mixed with three races. My mother-in-law is particularly dark-skinned, and her newest great-grandson is particularly light-skinned. We all laugh at a snapshot that was taken wearing a very "un-preferential" and wary expression on his face while rubbernecking at his great-grandmother standing several people apart (he was 12 months); not too many days later he clearly loves her like one might expect.

Edited May 22, 2018 by CV75

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you think this applies?

And this?

This particular prophecy (3 Nephi 20:16-18) has always intrigued me. The references to “the beasts of the forest” and “the flocks of sheep” seem to cover both governments and the Church. It seems Jesus is saying that the descendants of a destroyed Nephite nation will go through both systems and revolutionize them. It is hard to say which country this is taking place in, but it seems many are in the “isles of the sea” (i.e. Tonga, Samoa, Amerian Samoa, etc. where membership is relatively high and the government is especially friendly).

[RevTestament]

15 hours ago, Stargazer said:

How would I know what the trigger is?  Ask God, don't ask me.

3 Nephi 21:

7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.

8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lionamong the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

Quote

"Gentiles" means everyone not of the House of Israel. 

I used to think that because of Jewish tradition but:

3 Nephi 16:10

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall ^asin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be ^blifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and ^cmurders, and ^dpriestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall ^ereject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Who are the Gentiles here? And who are all nations if that is not Gentiles?

[Bernard Gui]

45 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Who are the Gentiles here? And who are all nations if that is not Gentiles?

It is important to know who the Gentiles are in this case. Do you read it as the non-Lehite inhabitants of America?

[Maidservant]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Not really in regards to anyone.  I have known a number of young toddlers who refuse to interact with those they see as different, even to the point of refusing to go to a father after he took off his glasses in a rare moment ( usually wore them as soon as out of bed even when waking up at night).  One of my grandkids wouldn't go to my husband at all or the other grandpa, may have been the white hair or longer beards, may have been the wrinkles.  Another had an issue with darker skinned relatives even though as far as we knew no comments about skin color had ever been made in front of her.  I am talking about preverbal and barely verbal children.  Don't remember seeing this type of behaviour (or at least what I assumed was this behaviour) past three.  But older kids---4 and 5 year olds--- will provide reasons when they see segregation even if race is not discussed and being kids, their logic may be out there (such as assuming there were no black presidents due to it being illegal https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/developing-minds/201304/are-kids-racist ).  They will also tend to choose friends who they see as more like themselves, including skin color, especially if they have less opportunity to interact with multiple races.

As far as ideology or racism kind of thing, I agree that has to be taught, but noting differences and refusing to interact because of them seems inherent in some young children.

Preferences in 3 month olds have been studied:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1467-9280.2006.01679.x

You are right.  Ha ha.  I suppose we run into any of the opposite example when we wonder why God/the scriptures ask us to become as a little child.  I mean, does God really want us to grab toys from another kid and not share?  To scream in tantrum?  I dunno . . .

[Maidservant]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Who are the Gentiles here? And who are all nations if that is not Gentiles?

I have heard that 'gentiles' simply means 'the people' or 'the nations', even as understood in the Jewish tradition.  You can see this in the Spanish word for people "gente".

[rongo]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Who are the Gentiles here? And who are all nations if that is not Gentiles?

The Book of Mormon adds a unique definition: People of mixed Israelite descent who are from Gentile nations (e.g., northern Europe). Thus, the Book of Mormon often refers to nominal Israelites as Gentiles --- and particularly, these nations. The United States fits a unique role under this because it has a) Israelites of Book of Mormon descent, and b) Israelites of European descent. So, it is a "Gentile" nation, even though the blood of Ephraim and Manasseh fulfill their latter-day destiny through it. 

I think the decline in influence and power among the U.S. and Europe will usher in the end of the "time of the Gentiles." 

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, CMZ said:

Which alternate gospel do you propose?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

[CMZ]

31 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

The Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Okay, nobody is forcing you to believe that Joseph Smith restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Okay, nobody is forcing you to believe that Joseph Smith restored the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thank you. 

[CMZ]

8 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you. 

Article of Faith 11: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

[Jeanne]

34 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Article of Faith 11: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

One of my favorites..and I love the 13th article of faith.  JS got a lot of things right..but I feel that he was not always in tune with the Lord..and went his own way.