Fullness of the Gentiles Has Come and Gone?

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who are you going to convince of that? Will it make Joseph Smith acceptable then?

It worked for me. It has worked for others as well

 

[CV75]

19 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Jesus told the Nephites

Do you think this day has come or is there more to be done? Are the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the gospel? If so, how and when will the fullness of the gospel be brought to the house of Israel?

Verse 8 refers to the unbelieving of the Gentiles, and verse 13 gives them room to repent. So, I don’t think it is necessarily an absolute given that the Gentiles on the whole will reject the fulness of the gospel. I think this chapter shows He is saying the Gentiles can go two ways, and He will act according to whichever they choose. I think if we are proper leaven, there will be more believing Gentiles combining with Israel, even in general.

[Exiled]

9 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I don't think we can draw any conclusions or even any reliable extrapolations from current membership numbers.  At less than 1% of the world's population, membership numbers are far too small to have any meaning impact on any world affairs.  

It's only a model .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3dZl3yfGpc

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

 

 No, I don't think I can say more without being controversial, at least.  Or maybe I'm misjudging the board; I know it would be fighting words where I live, ha ha.  But since you asked, I will say more, and let's see what happens.

Believe it or not, that's kind of how I thought you were going to roll.

And I can say that I disagree with you on pretty much every level.  This isn't the place to get into such a discussion, because it would quickly cause the thread to get closed. But I will say that while you have a good grasp of the negativities, for no human institutions (and certainly no government, anywhere) is without fault, and sometimes great fault, I am convinced that the United States is the greatest single source of secular peace in the world.  Because it is the most powerful, and because it is guided, however imperfectly, by the will of its people (who are by and large a godly population) and a founding constitution that was inspired by God, I expect that this will continue to be the case until the Lord claims the world back.  Don't mistake this sentiment as blindness with respect to the faults of the country, its people, and its government, for I know they are many.  But to quote Ken Hamblin: Pick a better country.

Let's not argue about it. The thread would be hijacked and then get closed.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Stargazer

[Maidservant]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Believe it or not, that's kind of how I thought you were going to roll.

And I can say that I disagree with you on pretty much every level.  This isn't the place to get into such a discussion, because it would quickly cause the thread to get closed. But I will say that while you have a good grasp of the negativities, for no human institutions (and certainly no government, anywhere) is without fault, and sometimes great fault, I am convinced that the United States is the greatest single source of secular peace in the world.  Because it is the most powerful, and because it is guided, however imperfectly, by the will of its people (who are by and large a godly population) and a founding constitution that was inspired by God, I expect that this will continue to be the case until the Lord claims the world back.  Don't mistake this sentiment as blindness with respect to the faults of the country, its people, and its government, for I know they are many.  But to quote Ken Hamblin: Pick a better country.

Let's not argue about it. The thread would be hijacked and then get closed.

I don't disagree with you, however.  Egypt is the seedbed for Israel.

As far the OP quote though, you are right, I do see the United States as fulfilling the picture of that prophecy best, though; even while Israel continues to arise within it as well (and from within the whole earth) (rise within it, but not BEING it).

I used to be a committed Constitutionalist, and as such, I would have said (and still do), that we haven't been living the Constitution since almost when it started.  We started breaking it down right away and at this point I don't see it anywhere in sight.  (As a pure and strict Constitutionalist, I could never in conscience participate in the current presidential elections, for example, as I see them as the antithesis of anything and everything constitutional).  I used to think the answer was to retrench back into the Constitution, and I took that cause up for a time in my younger life.  By now, though, I simply have decided for myself that that isn't the answer; but rather to accept that the larva is going to go through a chrysalis stage into butterfly, nothing like the larva.  Doesn't mean the larval stage wasn't important (i.e. inspired).  It does mean that the skin needs to be shed.  Again--that's the conclusion I came to, and I realize I may be an anomaly, and I don't need people to agree with me because I know we all have our own experiences and values and points of view.  But I suspect our basic hope for the peace of the world is the same, and I would hope others would grant me that, even if we might have a different understanding as to what road would get us there.

I think the United States--speaking of its people and of those elements that challenge the warmongering+ structure--has actually been a breathtaking example of repentance, although we still have far to go.   Slavery is America, but so is Harriet Tubman and Martin Luther King, Jr.  Rape+ is America, but so is # metoo.  People in abject poverty is America, but so are all the people who do something about it.  Fighting for suffrage is America. And so on.  But in all these instances, it is the power structures that are and must be challenged.  Or, actually, I am of the tack of making the traditional structures irrelevant, dissolving them and peacefully creating new structures, rather than protesting everything; but I have to admire the great courageous risks and challenges people have taken over time and maybe that is, after all, the way it needs to happen.

However, my biggest problem with the way things are is not that there are wheat and tares in this country, or any country (and your sense that I have concentrated on the tares).  My dismay is that we have tares (such as war, and the pride and destruction we have visited on the earth and is peoples and the nations) that people THINK are wheat.  That evil is called good.  I'm not saying that is you.  But that is what I see generally, especially among well meaning and religious people (but not only), and I absolutely am going to say something about that when and where I can (not saying this is the place, thus my reticence in my first post).  And--again--this is is what I think the purpose of the passage in The Book of Mormon is as well--is to call out tares that people think are wheat; and to call us to Israel and Zion not to a really good Egypt. 

Obviously I have to be responsible for my own interpretation; but on the other hand, I'm not freestyling this either, I'm getting it from words in the scripture, or my own personal revelation as relates to it.  As in, when I read that bolded part of the OP many years ago, I was like, "Oh, noooooo, that's us!" instead of feeling comfortable as I might have done before reading that passage.  Of course, not all of us as individuals are that description.  And, I don't think all of us are culpable just because we live here and do our best to participate according to our conscience--I don't subscribe to the idea of collective culpability.  I DO think the Gadiantons are culpable and ARE HERE AND ACTIVE and have been from the beginning of this nation, from the beginning of the 'discovery' of these continents, I'm not going to be comfortable with that on any measure no matter how much repentance there has been so far. 

And I am saying that the Gadiantons are not above righteousness rhetoric, in fact why would they use anything other than that, it serves their purpose; I am saying: " those Gadianton robbers filling the judgment-seats—having usurped the power and authority of the land" Helaman 7:4-5, see also Helaman 3:23; and I am saying that the OP passage is warning us about that--so I wasn't making a general statement; I was speaking in terms of that OP passage.  In other words--again--I think that I have been taught my point of view from the scriptures (while granting that others may get something else out of it) and that I didn't say it first, the Book of Mormon did!

I also am wary of what we have called peace (such as your idea of secular peace) that is simply hiding our pride and may be more of a gilded cage--like Siddartha in a beautiful palace, before he thought to look over the walls and see what was there (with the greater implication that the forces of history and paradigm that had created the palace also created what was outside the walls).   For concrete examples, yea, I think that would take us into thread-closing territory.

I do disagree that we wait for the Lord to fix anything.  I think he is waiting for US, to use what he's already given us.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Maidservant

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Perhaps it might be better in another thread but what should we expect the Church to look like? What happens when we move off the foundation and start putting the structure up?

My guess is that the changes will be jarring to those who only experience Church culture but welcomed by those who truly understand the doctrine.

[CMZ]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Don't mistake this sentiment as blindness with respect to the faults of the country, its people, and its government, for I know they are many.

This problem is resolved to the extent that individual American citizens are properly educated in American ideals and choose to live them themselves. A lot of what we have going on now is people putting partisan politics above American ideals.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It worked for me. It has worked for others as well

 

How will that happen on a larger canvas?

[Jeanne]

22 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Jesus told the Nephites

Do you think this day has come or is there more to be done? Are the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the gospel? If so, how and when will the fullness of the gospel be brought to the house of Israel?

What???  Are you giving  up on your missionaries?  Actually, I am being sincere.  Your question is a good one.  But...it is after all you can do..The big question is what are the gentiles rejecting?

Edited May 21, 2018 by Jeanne

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

Verse 8 refers to the unbelieving of the Gentiles, and verse 13 gives them room to repent. So, I don’t think it is necessarily an absolute given that the Gentiles on the whole will reject the fulness of the gospel. I think this chapter shows He is saying the Gentiles can go two ways, and He will act according to whichever they choose. I think if we are proper leaven, there will be more believing Gentiles combining with Israel, even in general.

How do you think this applies?

Quote

D&C 45 24 And this I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be scattered among all nations;
25 But they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.
27 And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

And this?

Quote

3 Nephi 20: 10 And it came to pass that when they had all given glory unto Jesus, he said unto them: Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.
11 Ye remember that I spake unto you, and said that when the words of Isaiah should be fulfilled--behold they are written, ye have them before you, therefore search them--
12 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that when they shall be fulfilled then is the fulfilling of the covenant which the Father hath made unto his people, O house of Israel.
13 And then shall the remnants, which shall be scattered abroad upon the face of the earth, be gathered in from the east and from the west, and from the south and from the north; and they shall be brought to the knowledge of the Lord their God, who hath redeemed them.
14 And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.
15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people--
16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
17 Thy hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.
18 And I will gather my people together as a man gathereth his sheaves into the floor.
19 For I will make my people with whom the Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it.
20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.
21 And it shall come to pass that I will establish my people, O house of Israel.
22 And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.
23 Behold, I am he of whom Moses spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.

 

[Bernard Gui]

14 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

What???  Are you giving  up on your missionaries?  Actually, I am being sincere.  Your question is a good one.  But...it is after all you can do..

Giving up on missionaries? Certainly not, but they cannot overrule agency. At some point it all has to be rolled up and finished.

Quote

The big question is what are the gentiles rejecting?

The fullness of the gospel...the covenants, commandments, and ordinances.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I don't think we can draw any conclusions or even any reliable extrapolations from current membership numbers.  At less than 1% of the world's population, membership numbers are far too small to have any meaning impact on any world affairs.  

But that’s the way it is supposed to be.

Quote

1Nephi 14 12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

 

 

[Jeanne]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Giving up on missionaries? Certainly not, but they cannot overrule agency. At some point it all has to be rolled up and finished.

I  agree.  But what to do with all the gentiles that are good, decent children of God?  Should we roll them up and finish?  That would be okay.  The House of Israel would be  of loss of many valiant peoples of God should the agency of those without said gospel bring forth the better fruit.

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I  agree.  But what to do with all the gentiles that are good, decent children of God?  Should we roll them up and finish?  That would be okay.  The House of Israel would be  of loss of many valiant peoples of God should the agency of those without said gospel bring forth the better fruit.

Sorry, but I don’t understand what you said. 

[CMZ]

31 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I  agree.  But what to do with all the gentiles that are good, decent children of God?  Should we roll them up and finish?  That would be okay.  The House of Israel would be  of loss of many valiant peoples of God should the agency of those without said gospel bring forth the better fruit.

Everyone gets a full and complete chance to accept the Gospel.

[mfbukowski]

59 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

How will that happen on a larger canvas?

Planting the seed and seeing if it grows.

[CV75]

56 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you think this applies?

And this?

I think there will be a time when the Gentiles “on the left” will be destroyed and the Gentiles “on the right” will become part of Israel, and this when and how the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled (everyone left will be “Israel” or at least friends of Israel.) The Gentiles are they who “receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.” Those who become part of Zion (the heavenly kingdom) are no longer citizens of the nations of the Gentiles (the kingdoms of the world).

3 Nephi 20:15 says, “if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people--Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye [remnant of Israel, gathered Israel, Zion] shall be in the midst of them who shall be many [see 1 Nephi 14:12; 22;17—this is happening today]; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.”

3 Nephi 20:20 says, “except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.” The Lord will establish His people Israel, and also, “God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

[Jeanne]

24 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Everyone gets a full and complete chance to accept the Gospel.

I know that...what I am saying is the gospel according to JS..may not be exactly right..and separating wheat and tares is difficult because there are a lot of human beings on this planet that have exceeding the expectations of God.

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, one could see it that way, but the world has about as many Jews as it has Latter-day Saints. Would you argue that the minority status of the tribe of Judah means that they have no meaningful impact on world affairs?  I don't think you could, in all honesty.

Further, are you sure that the current membership numbers of LDS in the world mean that we don't have any meaningful impact on world affairs?  Perhaps not an obvious one -- but even when the Jews were in diaspora they had an disproportionate impact upon the world, something that was noticed and militated against (witness the pogroms in slavic countries, the holocaust in germanic ones, and laws everywhere which made it difficult for Jews in many ways).    A little leaven causes the entire loaf to rise, after all.

And if you want to make the argument that only a fraction of LDS are believing, active members, and this dilutes our impact, one could make a similar argument for the Jews, many of whom are unbelievers, and this applies even in Israel. 

Another interesting parallel occurs to me, and that is the placement of the largest concentration of Jews upon the planet.  It's in the arid land of Palestine; which is where the largest concentration of LDS is located, arid Utah.  I wonder if that parallelism was something that God intended?  Is there something about aridity here?  

So what would be the trigger for the end of the end of the fullness of times for the gentiles?  A dip in membership from 0.0078% to 0.0072%?  I doubt the vast majority of the living population of the world has even heard or heard enough about it to even make a decision on whether to accept or reject the message.  I think sometimes we as members (way) over estimate the level of public knowledge of the church.

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Believe it or not, that's kind of how I thought you were going to roll.

And I can say that I disagree with you on pretty much every level.  This isn't the place to get into such a discussion, because it would quickly cause the thread to get closed. But I will say that while you have a good grasp of the negativities, for no human institutions (and certainly no government, anywhere) is without fault, and sometimes great fault, I am convinced that the United States is the greatest single source of secular peace in the world.  Because it is the most powerful, and because it is guided, however imperfectly, by the will of its people (who are by and large a godly population) and a founding constitution that was inspired by God, I expect that this will continue to be the case until the Lord claims the world back.  Don't mistake this sentiment as blindness with respect to the faults of the country, its people, and its government, for I know they are many.  But to quote Ken Hamblin: Pick a better country.

Let's not argue about it. The thread would be hijacked and then get closed.

I am going to ignore your condensation and say I agree with what you say about America, but I don't understand what that has to do with the "end of the fullness of the gentiles" or the LDS church in general (remember, that is what we are talking about in this thread).  The US was a great country before 1830 and it is still a great country.  

Edited May 21, 2018 by sunstoned

[sunstoned]

15 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I hope all the leaven gives us a good loaf

I will not argue with you on this one.  I believe LDS people have had a net positive effect on this county.  But to assume the times of the gentiles is over because our minute membership numbers have taken a dip is really reaching.

Edited May 21, 2018 by sunstoned

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

But that’s the way it is supposed to be.

 

Maybe.  But I think we greatly over estimate our importance.  There are hundreds of christian religions out there with many millions of members. Do they count?  I think they do.

[JAHS]

18 hours ago, Maidservant said:

This is what I understand to be the fullness of the Gospel:

4th Nephi 1-18

They did also receive the Holy Ghost; . . . there were no contentions and disputations among them, and every man did deal justly one with another. And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift . . . peace in the land. And there were great and marvelous works wrought . . . they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear; and all manner of miracles did they work among the children of men . . . they did build cities again where there had been cities burned . . . there was no contention among all the people, in all the land . . . because of the love of God which did dwell in the hearts of the people. And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness; and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God. There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God. And how blessed were they! For the Lord did bless them in all their doings.

"This is what I understand to be the fullness of the Gospel:"

And this:
13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day."  (3 Nephi 27)

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I am going to ignore your condensation and say I agree with what you say about America, but I don't understand what that has to do with the "end of the fullness of the gentiles" or the LDS church in general (remember, that is what we are talking about in this thread).  The US was a great country before 1830 and it is still a great country.  

"Condensation"? Am I steam or something?  

Perhaps you didn't read what I was responding to, which was Maidservant's take on the state of America, much of which I disagreed with. So my condensation was dealing with what she posted, and not the OP.  Hope this helps.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

So what would be the trigger for the end of the end of the fullness of times for the gentiles?  A dip in membership from 0.0078% to 0.0072%?  I doubt the vast majority of the living population of the world has even heard or heard enough about it to even make a decision on whether to accept or reject the message.  I think sometimes we as members (way) over estimate the level of public knowledge of the church.

How would I know what the trigger is?  Ask God, don't ask me.

There have been some posts here suggesting that the dip in conversion rates in the western developed nations might be compensated for by growth elsewhere -- where the Church is fairly new, such as African and Asian countries.  And perhaps the compensation may be major -- something I can't predict, obviously. 

"Gentiles" means everyone not of the House of Israel.  So, in answer to the OP, the time of the Gentiles can't really be over until the gospel has been taken everywhere -- and as you point out, general knowledge of the Church is minimal, and this must change in order for the end of the ToG to arrive.  In my humble opinion.