bsjkki Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 So, I thought there were no horses in the America’s before Columbus? Scholars explain...isn’t this a frequent anti argument against the Book of Mormon? https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/science/2018/04/30/utah-family-finds-remains-ancient-horse-in-backyard.amp.html 1
Popular Post bluebell Posted May 1, 2018 Popular Post Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, bsjkki said: So, I thought there were no horses in the America’s before Columbus? Scholars explain...isn’t this a frequent anti argument against the Book of Mormon? https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/science/2018/04/30/utah-family-finds-remains-ancient-horse-in-backyard.amp.html There were lots of horses in the new world prior to Columbus, but the all went extinct way before BOM times (I want to say around 10,000 BC but I could totally be making that up). 5
bsjkki Posted May 1, 2018 Author Posted May 1, 2018 Interesting comment found in this article about a legend of horses being here when Columbus came. “the thought here is not that they could not evolve with their habitat, but that they may have been hunted to extinction from North America. However, there is a tribe of Canadian Indians who have what they claim are the original horses of the Americas, which were said to be witnessed by early explorers before the conquistadors arrived with their horses. Unfortunately, the numbers of their equines is limited because early missionaries tried to wipe the herds out to control the Indians.” https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2014/10/07/north-americas-wild-horses-native/ But most do believe they went extinct in North America 11000 to 13000 years ago. 1
bsjkki Posted May 1, 2018 Author Posted May 1, 2018 https://www.google.com/amp/s/rtfitchauthor.com/2016/02/20/indian-horses-before-columbus/amp/ So is this article all debunked by scientists. “Everywhere that explorers traveled along the Eastern Seaboard of North America during the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, they reported seeing Indians (or Welsh settlers) riding horses. When John Cabot landed along the East Coast in 1497, he reported seeing “the dung of draft animals” (such as horses and cattle). The Natives presumably kept their livestock “out of sight” due to quite reasonable fears that alien visitors who landed along their shores might take cattle for a festive evening meal. When Jacques Cartier explored the region of Quebec in 1535, his Native host informed him that there was a tribe in the Far West where the Indians rode on horses.” 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 hour ago, bsjkki said: So, I thought there were no horses in the America’s before Columbus? .................... 1 hour ago, bluebell said: There were lots of horses in the new world prior to Columbus, but the all went extinct way before BOM times (I want to say around 10,000 BC but I could totally be making that up). The horse originated in the New World and migrated to the Old World, then went extinct in the New World sometime after 5,600 B.C. (ScienceDaily, Dec 15, 2009, online at https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091214151946.htm ). Steven Jones says that horse bones have been found in Canada, from 900 BC (Sask, Ridell I-8581), and 1,100 AD (Ontario, Hemlock Park Farm); in Wolf Spider Cave, Colorado, from 1,260 - 1,400 AD; and in Horsethief Cave, Wyoming, ca. 1,100 BC (Jones, “Were There Horses in the Americas Before Columbus?” Ancient American, 16 #95 [June 2012], 2-3). 4
sunstoned Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 This is an interesting article. I was surprised how complete the remains were considering there are over 2 million years old. Quote A Utah family working on a landscaping project unearthed the fossil remains of an ancient horse dating back more than 2 million years.
Alan Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 We know they didn't go extinct around 10,000 BC because they are clearly mentioned in the Book of Mormon. 3
snowflake Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 11 hours ago, bsjkki said: So, I thought there were no horses in the America’s before Columbus? Scholars explain...isn’t this a frequent anti argument against the Book of Mormon? https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/science/2018/04/30/utah-family-finds-remains-ancient-horse-in-backyard.amp.html I'm confused. "A Utah family working on a landscaping project unearthed the fossil remains of an ancient horse dating back more than 2 million years." Then the article states this THIS 3,000 YEAR-OLD HORSE GOT A HUMAN STYLE BURIAL How old is the horse? 2 million or 3 thousand years? I know "scientists" like to give a date range but that is a pretty wide range. I didn't realize humans removed the craniums, to make it a "human style burial".?!? Then Hunter goes on to speculate about a rapid burial to preserve everything..... My speculation is that it was buried by a flood.
Alan Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 49 minutes ago, snowflake said: I'm confused. "A Utah family working on a landscaping project unearthed the fossil remains of an ancient horse dating back more than 2 million years." Then the article states this THIS 3,000 YEAR-OLD HORSE GOT A HUMAN STYLE BURIAL How old is the horse? 2 million or 3 thousand years? I know "scientists" like to give a date range but that is a pretty wide range. I didn't realize humans removed the craniums, to make it a "human style burial".?!? Then Hunter goes on to speculate about a rapid burial to preserve everything..... My speculation is that it was buried by a flood. I know what you mean about scientists and their date ranges. During a school visit to a local museum here, one of the children asked the curator how old the dinosaur fossil was. He said it was 65,000,012 years old. When asked how he could be so specific, he told them that it was 65 million years old when he started working at the museum, and that was 12 years ago! 4
ksfisher Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 hour ago, snowflake said: I'm confused. "A Utah family working on a landscaping project unearthed the fossil remains of an ancient horse dating back more than 2 million years." Then the article states this THIS 3,000 YEAR-OLD HORSE GOT A HUMAN STYLE BURIAL How old is the horse? 2 million or 3 thousand years? I know "scientists" like to give a date range but that is a pretty wide range. I didn't realize humans removed the craniums, to make it a "human style burial".?!? Then Hunter goes on to speculate about a rapid burial to preserve everything..... My speculation is that it was buried by a flood. The writer of the story does not seem to be very consistent with the facts. 2
rockpond Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, bsjkki said: So, I thought there were no horses in the America’s before Columbus? Scholars explain...isn’t this a frequent anti argument against the Book of Mormon? https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxnews.com/science/2018/04/30/utah-family-finds-remains-ancient-horse-in-backyard.amp.html I'm no expert on Book of Mormon archaeology, but I suspect if we want to help support the literal historicity of scripture using a 2 million year old fossil, it might open up a can of worms. Edited May 1, 2018 by rockpond
RevTestament Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, snowflake said: I'm confused. "A Utah family working on a landscaping project unearthed the fossil remains of an ancient horse dating back more than 2 million years." Then the article states this THIS 3,000 YEAR-OLD HORSE GOT A HUMAN STYLE BURIAL How old is the horse? 2 million or 3 thousand years? I know "scientists" like to give a date range but that is a pretty wide range. I didn't realize humans removed the craniums, to make it a "human style burial".?!? Then Hunter goes on to speculate about a rapid burial to preserve everything..... My speculation is that it was buried by a flood. Snowflake, the answer is staring you right in the face. The horse lived to be 3000 years old, and then died 2 million years ago. It got a human style burial by the humans that lived in Utah 2 million years ago - hey let's forget the prior theory that humans arrived just 12,000 years ago... That would be the great Nile Valley of Utah...of course. Edited May 1, 2018 by RevTestament 2
Robert F. Smith Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 4 hours ago, snowflake said: ............................... THIS 3,000 YEAR-OLD HORSE GOT A HUMAN STYLE BURIAL How old is the horse? 2 million or 3 thousand years? I know "scientists" like to give a date range but that is a pretty wide range. I didn't realize humans removed the craniums, to make it a "human style burial".?!? Then Hunter goes on to speculate about a rapid burial to preserve everything..... My speculation is that it was buried by a flood. The Lake Bonneville Flood occurred about 15,000 years ago, so the horse drowned and was covered before that date -- not 3,000 years ago. 2
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said: so the horse drowned and was covered before that date ...or on that date.
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: The Lake Bonneville Flood occurred about 15,000 years ago, so the horse drowned and was covered before that date -- not 3,000 years ago. I actually just read that the flood occurred 500 million years ago, and receded/drained about 15,000 (14.5) years ago. So it could actually be 3,000 years old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Bonneville
cinepro Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, ksfisher said: The writer of the story does not seem to be very consistent with the facts. The line about the "3,000 year old horse" is a link to a different article about a different horse. As for the confusion in the original post, scholars all agree that there were horses in the New World long before Columbus. They just also agree that they appear to have gone extinct in the New World before Columbus (or the Jaredites or Lehites) got here. https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/ Edited May 1, 2018 by cinepro
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, cinepro said: The line about the "3,000 year old horse" is a link to a different article about a different horse. Now how do they explain the 2 million year old claim? Every other source says 14-16 thousand years old: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900017140/lehi-familys-landscaping-project-turns-up-16000-year-old-bones.html https://www.ksl.com/article/46308711/lehi-familys-landscaping-project-turns-up-16000-year-old-bones https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/north/lehi/lehi-family-finds-prehistoric-bones-in-their-backyard/article_30cfdf9c-cfd5-555b-8cfb-ce41b23b0a57.html
cinepro Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 3 minutes ago, pogi said: Now how do they explain the 2 million year old claim? Every other source says 14-16 thousand years old: https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900017140/lehi-familys-landscaping-project-turns-up-16000-year-old-bones.html https://www.ksl.com/article/46308711/lehi-familys-landscaping-project-turns-up-16000-year-old-bones https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/north/lehi/lehi-family-finds-prehistoric-bones-in-their-backyard/article_30cfdf9c-cfd5-555b-8cfb-ce41b23b0a57.html I don't know. It's Fox News, so maybe they were just trying to put their own unique twist on the story. 2
ksfisher Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 32 minutes ago, cinepro said: The line about the "3,000 year old horse" is a link to a different article about a different horse. As for the confusion in the original post, scholars all agree that there were horses in the New World long before Columbus. They just also agree that they appear to have gone extinct in the New World before Columbus (or the Jaredites or Lehites) got here. https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/ It looks like we have more than one article being talked about here.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 hour ago, pogi said: I actually just read that the flood occurred 500 million years ago, and receded/drained about 15,000 (14.5) years ago. So it could actually be 3,000 years old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Bonneville The huge lake formed about 500 million years ago. The Flood was 14.5 thousand years ago, but you are correct that there was still enough water for the horse to drown in after that -- much later.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 52 minutes ago, cinepro said: The line about the "3,000 year old horse" is a link to a different article about a different horse. As for the confusion in the original post, scholars all agree that there were horses in the New World long before Columbus. They just also agree that they appear to have gone extinct in the New World before Columbus (or the Jaredites or Lehites) got here. https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/ The 2012 article you cite does say that equus in the Americas went extinct "just 7600 years ago." That is ca 5600 BC, as I said in my post above. However, that is only the latest DNA evidence of equus available in the Yukon, and the authors of your article misread what the scientists were actually saying. That latest DNA evidence means that equus in America went extinct at a date later than 5600 BC. As those scientists made clear, mammoth and horse fossils "are unlikely to include the last members of either species, which underlines the critical significance of the sedaDNA approach for detecting rare, late-surviving populations of mammoth and horse in different parts of North America." Moreover, "the duration of human/megafaunal overlap was probably even greater than suggested by our sedaDNA results, raising questions about the mode and tempo of extinction," i.e., we do not actually know "when, where, and why various late Quaternary species went extinct." James Haile, et al., “Ancient DNA reveals late survival of mammoth and horse in interior Alaska,” PNAS, Dec 17, 2009, online at http://www.pnas.org/content/106/52/22352.full . As I also pointed out in my post, we have dated horse bones within the Book of Mormon period. 1
rpn Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 20 hours ago, bluebell said: There were lots of horses in the new world prior to Columbus, but the all went extinct way before BOM times (I want to say around 10,000 BC but I could totally be making that up). They officially went extinct, but the still unknown is whether that really meant there were no horses in North/south america during book of mormon times, or whether some had remained after all were thought to be extinct. 1
JarMan Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 The bones have to be younger than about 14,000 years old which is when Lake Bonneville receded low enough. The FoxNews story is inaccurate and I bet the paleontologist who said 16,000 years ago would like a do-over.
Duncan Posted May 2, 2018 Posted May 2, 2018 11 hours ago, snowflake said: I'm confused. "A Utah family working on a landscaping project unearthed the fossil remains of an ancient horse dating back more than 2 million years." Then the article states this THIS 3,000 YEAR-OLD HORSE GOT A HUMAN STYLE BURIAL How old is the horse? 2 million or 3 thousand years? I know "scientists" like to give a date range but that is a pretty wide range. I didn't realize humans removed the craniums, to make it a "human style burial".?!? Then Hunter goes on to speculate about a rapid burial to preserve everything..... My speculation is that it was buried by a flood. well, I had a mission companion from Lehi, Utah and let's just say intelligence wasn't his strong point, maybe it's in the water?
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