Marginal Gains Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 51 minutes ago, RevTestament said: See that phrase I highlighted in red? Did Alexander pass over or conquer the whole world? No, he did not. He did not conquer China nor pass over it. It is hyperbole. You are missing the whole import of the Ark story. It represents the temple in the second seal - like the ark of the covenant did in the third seal. The fact that there was no world-wide flood in Noah's day does not invalidate the Bible. God uses men and stories to teach. The point of the Bible is not to be some precise history book - it is to be a precise revelatory book. Open your eyes, and let it reveal God's secrets to you. Stop trying to pound it into your square hole. It really kind of does.
LittleNipper Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 4 hours ago, RevTestament said: See that phrase I highlighted in red? Did Alexander pass over or conquer the whole world? No, he did not. He did not conquer China nor pass over it. It is hyperbole. You are missing the whole import of the Ark story. It represents the temple in the second seal - like the ark of the covenant did in the third seal. The fact that there was no world-wide flood in Noah's day does not invalidate the Bible. God uses men and stories to teach. The point of the Bible is not to be some precise history book - it is to be a precise revelatory book. Open your eyes, and let it reveal God's secrets to you. Stop trying to pound it into your square hole. The horn was Alexander the Goat is Satan. I'd say that Satan has traveled over the entire earth. I believe you missed the point.
LittleNipper Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 (edited) RevTestament wrote: You are missing the whole import of the Ark story. It represents the temple in the second seal - like the ark of the covenant did in the third seal. The fact that there was no world-wide flood in Noah's day does not invalidate the Bible. God uses men and stories to teach. The point of the Bible is not to be some precise history book - it is to be a precise revelatory book. Open your eyes, and let it reveal God's secrets to you. Stop trying to pound it into your square hole. I see that you are the square trying to fabricate pegs to fit Mormonism. Jesus speaks of a point before the FLOOD. 🙄There can be no "before" the Flood unless there was a FLOOD! And the Flood (according to Jesus) represents HIS return which will be a surprise... Now, if the Son of GOD's return is like the FLOOD and the FLOOD didn't happen -------- one can only assume that the return of Christ is simply another story following your train of thought. Pray and read the Bible and ask GOD to open your HEART! Matthew 24 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 24 As Yeshua left the Temple and was going away, his talmidim came and called his attention to its buildings. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these? Yes! I tell you, they will be totally destroyed — not a single stone will be left standing!” 3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the talmidim came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that you are coming, and that the ‘olam hazeh is ending?” 4 Yeshua replied: “Watch out! Don’t let anyone fool you! 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah!’ and they will lead many astray. 6 You will hear the noise of wars nearby and the news of wars far off; see to it that you don’t become frightened. Such things must happen, but the end is yet to come. 7 For peoples will fight each other, nations will fight each other, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various parts of the world; 8 all this is but the beginning of the ‘birth-pains.’ 9 At that time you will be arrested and handed over to be punished and put to death, and all peoples will hate you because of me. 10 At that time many will be trapped into betraying and hating each other, 11 many false prophets will appear and fool many people; 12 and many people’s love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah. 13 But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered. 14 And this Good News about the Kingdom will be announced throughout the whole world as a witness to all the Goyim. It is then that the end will come. 15 “So when you see the abomination that causes devastationspoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place”[a](let the reader understand the allusion), 16 “that will be the time for those in Y’hudah to escape to the hills. 17 If someone is on the roof, he must not go down to gather his belongings from his house; 18 if someone is in the field, he must not turn back to get his coat. 19 What a terrible time it will be for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that you will not have to escape in winter or on Shabbat. 21 For there will be trouble then worse than there has ever been from the beginning of the world until now, and there will be nothing like it again![b]22 Indeed, if the length of this time had not been limited, no one would survive; but for the sake of those who have been chosen, its length will be limited. 23 “At that time, if someone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ don’t believe him. 24 For there will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing great miracles — amazing things! — so as to fool even the chosen, if possible. 25 There! I have told you in advance! 26 So if people say to you, ‘Listen! He’s out in the desert!’ don’t go; or, ‘Look! He’s hidden away in a secret room!’ don’t believe it. 27 For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east and fills the sky to the western horizon. 28 Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where you find the vultures. 29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times, the sun will grow dark,the moon will stop shining,[c]the stars will fall from the sky,and the powers in heaven will be shaken. [d] 30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn,[e] and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.[f] 31 He will send out his angels with a great shofar;[g] and they will gather together his chosen people from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 “Now let the fig tree teach you its lesson: when its branches begin to sprout and leaves appear, you know that summer is approaching. 33 In the same way, when you see all these things, you are to know that the time is near, right at the door. 34 Yes! I tell you that this people will certainly not pass away before all these things happen. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But when that day and hour will come, no one knows — not the angels in heaven, not the Son, only the Father. 37 For the Son of Man’s coming will be just as it was in the days of Noach. 38 Back then, before the Flood, people went on eating and drinking, taking wives and becoming wives, right up till the day Noach entered the ark; 39 and they didn’t know what was happening until the Flood came and swept them all away. It will be just like that when the Son of Man comes. 40 Then there will be two men in a field — one will be taken and the other left behind. 41 There will be two women grinding flour at the mill — one will be taken and the other left behind. 42 So stay alert, because you don’t know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But you do know this: had the owner of the house known when the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you too must always be ready, for the Son of Man will come when you are not expecting him. Edited May 16, 2018 by LittleNipper
LittleNipper Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 (edited) Genesis 2 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, along with everything in them. 2 On the seventh day God was finished with his work which he had made, so he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce. (A: iv, S: ii) 4 Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven, 5 there was as yet no wild bush on the earth, and no wild plant had as yet sprung up; for Adonai, God, had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no one to cultivate the ground. So, here GOD presents HIS HISTORY of HIS creating HIS CREATION. There are no generations in the way RevTestament wishes to prove it was. Edited May 16, 2018 by LittleNipper
RevTestament Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 2 hours ago, LittleNipper said: The horn was Alexander the Goat is Satan. I'd say that Satan has traveled over the entire earth. I believe you missed the point. Nope. The horn is Alexander. I have already said that. Horns are ruling offices. He was the ruler of what? Greece. That is the goat. Just like the ram was the Persian kingdom. In Daniel 7 Greece is the leopard. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth. The leopard, Greece, was the third kingdom. There were four kingdoms in this vision, and now you want to make all the beasts Satan. I don't know where you get your eschatology from, but it is not the Bible. These beasts at times do Satan's work, but they are not Satan.
RevTestament Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 2 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I see that you are the square trying to fabricate pegs to fit Mormonism. Jesus speaks of a point before the FLOOD. 🙄There can be no "before" the Flood unless there was a FLOOD! And the Flood (according to Jesus) represents HIS return which will be a surprise... Now, if the Son of GOD's return is like the FLOOD and the FLOOD didn't happen -------- one can only assume that the return of Christ is simply another story following your train of thought. Pray and read the Bible and ask GOD to open your HEART! I did not say there was no flood. Do you need to read what I said again? I said there was no global flood in the days of Noah. I even made reference to the ark Noah built. The Chinese lived on. The Americans lived on. Just like people misread the story of the creation, they misread the flood story. I never said there was no Noah. I am aware of Yeshua's reference to Noah and the flood. Even as one calls right now as Noah, no one will hear, and thus His return will be as a thief, and you will be left mourning like they did in the days of the flood. You have your interpretation so set on imposing your global flood interpretation, that you will not hear. You view my interpretation that there was no global flood as an attack on your eschatology. It doesn't really matter whether I believe there was a global one or not. I still believe the story and I know Yeshua will come in the clouds - a lot better than you do. Unless you change you will be left in the darkness of the night.
RevTestament Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Genesis 2 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, along with everything in them. 2 On the seventh day God was finished with his work which he had made, so he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce. (A: iv, S: ii) 4 Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven, 5 there was as yet no wild bush on the earth, and no wild plant had as yet sprung up; for Adonai, God, had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no one to cultivate the ground. So, here GOD presents HIS HISTORY of HIS creating HIS CREATION. There are no generations in the way RevTestament wishes to prove it was. The Hebrew word there is ṯō·wl·ḏō·wṯ תוֹלְד֧וֹת. It is used throughout the Tanakh in reference to generations. The generations of Adam. The generations of Seth, Noah, and the sons of Noah. It is used throughout the OT to refer to the generations of sons. It has no precise meaning as "history." Now here is a lesson for you using the NT. Jesus taught that the earth too has generations, and said he would return in "this generation." Unless you are a preterist who believes he has already returned, when their temple was destroyed, he is speaking of a different generation than what you have in mind. He is speaking of the last generation of the earth during the seventh seal which is an allusion to the Sabbath. Edited May 16, 2018 by RevTestament
RevTestament Posted May 16, 2018 Posted May 16, 2018 I am enjoying our chat LittleNipper, but I am afraid we have hijacked the thread. I don't know if you will be comfortable starting a new thread, but I think we should. Here is a suggested title: Interpretation of pre-Mosaic Scriptures.
LittleNipper Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, RevTestament said: I did not say there was no flood. Do you need to read what I said again? I said there was no global flood in the days of Noah. I even made reference to the ark Noah built. The Chinese lived on. The Americans lived on. Just like people misread the story of the creation, they misread the flood story. I never said there was no Noah. I am aware of Yeshua's reference to Noah and the flood. Even as one calls right now as Noah, no one will hear, and thus His return will be as a thief, and you will be left mourning like they did in the days of the flood. You have your interpretation so set on imposing your global flood interpretation, that you will not hear. You view my interpretation that there was no global flood as an attack on your eschatology. It doesn't really matter whether I believe there was a global one or not. I still believe the story and I know Yeshua will come in the clouds - a lot better than you do. Unless you change you will be left in the darkness of the night. תּוֺלְדוֺת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ Genesis 2:4 literally --- begettings of heaven and earth, i.e. account of heaven and earth and that which proceeded from them. Genesis 7:17-20 17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. Scientifically, water must fill in ALL the lower regions before it can rise over the highest of hills. Edited May 17, 2018 by LittleNipper
RevTestament Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 2 hours ago, LittleNipper said: תּוֺלְדוֺת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ Genesis 2:4 literally --- begettings of heaven and earth, i.e. account of heaven and earth and that which proceeded from them. Genesis 7:17-20 17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. Scientifically, water must fill in ALL the lower regions before it can rise over the highest of hills. The Hebrew he·hā·rîm הֶֽהָרִים֙ can and often does refer to hills like in Deut 11:11 where it describes the hills of the land the Hebrews were promised. A 25 foot flood over the hills around Noah is a significant flood, however, Mesopotamia was essentially a flood plain. It was subject to flood from the Persian Gulf and waters channeled from all the lands around it. A significant local flood could be sufficient to flood all the plain and hills in it. Given its geographical vulnerability to flood waters from storm and rain, I believe a hurricane or two could meet the scriptural description given in Genesis. A flood which could wash the ark out of the Persian Gulf and into the Indian Ocean to later land east of where the various semitic kingdoms arose in the area after Noah came from the east. So, I believe the text can be interpreted in a literal sense. However, to believe there was a world-wide flood, does not comport at all with the scientific evidence.
LittleNipper Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 6 hours ago, RevTestament said: The Hebrew he·hā·rîm הֶֽהָרִים֙ can and often does refer to hills like in Deut 11:11 where it describes the hills of the land the Hebrews were promised. A 25 foot flood over the hills around Noah is a significant flood, however, Mesopotamia was essentially a flood plain. It was subject to flood from the Persian Gulf and waters channeled from all the lands around it. A significant local flood could be sufficient to flood all the plain and hills in it. Given its geographical vulnerability to flood waters from storm and rain, I believe a hurricane or two could meet the scriptural description given in Genesis. A flood which could wash the ark out of the Persian Gulf and into the Indian Ocean to later land east of where the various semitic kingdoms arose in the area after Noah came from the east. So, I believe the text can be interpreted in a literal sense. However, to believe there was a world-wide flood, does not comport at all with the scientific evidence. The world was flatter before the Flood, as it was closer to its original pre-Fall condition. The Flood was the icing on the cake and gave us both the Grand Canyon and the Alps. Fossils are found everywhere, even on the top of mountains. Fossils are the result of quick burial, water, and mud. There are scientist who trust in their own research and evaluations and there are scientists who trust in GOD and His WORD.
snowflake Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 On 5/14/2018 at 10:51 AM, RevTestament said: It's amazing how all the sudden the literalists refuse to believe either Yeshua or the Father Himself. They do not believe Stephen either that He saw Yeshua on the right hand of God. They do not believe Moses that he saw God's "back parts," and that God has to make efforts for man not to see Him or man will die. In essence they believe God is a liar, and makes this up about Himself? Why? Because they believe a lie promoted by that one that is merely a spirit - that God is only spirit too. For them to believe what the scriptures actually say would mean LDS are right - and they can't have that. Therefore, they are kept from the truth - many of them in their own scriptures - even the truth revealed by Yeshua Himself which tore the veil in the temple for all to see the way to the Father embodied by Yeshua Himself who did exactly what He had seen the Father do, even laying down His life for us as well. There you have it. The highest truth of the temple and man will not receive it. Wherefore because they believed not the truth, and made God into their own Grecian image, God said "I will send them strong delusion, that they will believe a lie." 2 Thessalonians 2:11 I can feel your frustration. The Christian world feels the same way towards our LDS brothers as you do towards us. Our hearts cry out as we try to comprehend how the LDS could buy this lie from Joseph....which is so easily torn down and shown as a fraud....but yet the LDS church remains and it's followers believe Joseph....my Father is a TBM and it breaks my heart that he has been blinded by such an obvious false Prophet. In essence we do not believe God is a liar.....we believe his Word (the Bible) to be accurate and true. The attitude of the LDS is that they have God "figured out". They completely understand him...everything about Him....no mystery... As a Christian I can't possibly completely comprehend the power, majesty, holiness and compassion of our mighty God...but the Bible helps us to understand and it is sufficient. I see the LDS picking and choosing parts of the Bible that support the current LDS sect's agenda, and when the Bible doesn't agree with them...that's where the Bible has been corrupted. Anyways....I feel your frustration!
RevTestament Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 53 minutes ago, snowflake said: I can feel your frustration. The Christian world feels the same way towards our LDS brothers as you do towards us. Our hearts cry out as we try to comprehend how the LDS could buy this lie from Joseph....which is so easily torn down and shown as a fraud....but yet the LDS church remains and it's followers believe Joseph....my Father is a TBM and it breaks my heart that he has been blinded by such an obvious false Prophet. In essence we do not believe God is a liar.....we believe his Word (the Bible) to be accurate and true. The attitude of the LDS is that they have God "figured out". They completely understand him...everything about Him....no mystery... As a Christian I can't possibly completely comprehend the power, majesty, holiness and compassion of our mighty God...but the Bible helps us to understand and it is sufficient. I see the LDS picking and choosing parts of the Bible that support the current LDS sect's agenda, and when the Bible doesn't agree with them...that's where the Bible has been corrupted. Anyways....I feel your frustration! I am not frustrated at all. I reached these conclusions on my own before I knew about Joseph's King Follett discourse, so I don't appreciate your mischaracterization of my points. The plain fact is you do not believe what Stephen, Yeshua, and the Most High all plainly say in the Bible. You choose to believe He is only a spirit, because He keeps Himself from being visible to man. Since He is visible, we cannot see Him without dying according to Him. This you choose not to believe. You believe He is making it up. Therefore, you are saying He is lying when He says if we see Him we will die. You choose not to believe Moses that he saw His back parts, and make up fancy theological reasons why you do not need to believe Moses. On basically all the major theological points, Orthodoxy has gone astray, and teaches things which are not scriptural, nor true. No need to feel bad for me. It is I who feels bad for you since you believe all the lies. These are many, but every time I bring them up your life-long training kicks in and you dismiss them. I reason with you in scriptural plainness and simplicity, and you believe man-made stuff. For instance: 1. Scripture says Yeshua was begotten when the Father sayeth unto Him "thous art my Son. This day I have begotten thee." Yet to maintain its ideas about the doctrine of the trinity, almost all of Christianity chooses not to believe what the scriptures plainly say, and accept the Nicene Creed which was imposed on Christians three hundred years after Christ by law. The creed teaches that He was begotten before all ages or worlds or in other words before time. That is not scriptural, but is a conclusion perceived as being necessary to maintain the theological teaching of the trinity. 2. The doctrine of the trinity teaches that God is immutable, and cannot change. It teaches that the Father is not the Son, and that the Son is not the Father. It teaches the Son is eternally the Son. This is contrary to the scriptures which declare in Isa 9:6 that the child born to us will be called El Gibbor, the Mighty God, and the Eternal Father. Isaiah also teaches that He will inherit the government of the Father. This is impossible in trinitarianism because He is immutable, and cannot change. 3. Yeshua Himself teaches that He does not hold the reigns of the government when He says "to sit on my right hand or my left, is not mine to give, but shall be given to them for which it is prepared" by the Father. It is the Father who is ultimately running the show. This also shows that Joseph Smith was clearly right about foreordination. Some are foreordained to be prophets like Jeremiah 4 plainly teaches. God says He knew Jeremiah before He was formed(ie created) in the belly. Why? Does God show favoritism to some of His creation? But He says He is no respecter of persons. 4. Yeshua and Isaiah teach that He does not know all things. Isaiah teaches that before things come to pass the Father will tell Yeshua of them. Yeshua says only the Father knew the day and hour when He would return. So Yeshua is not omnipotent of Himself either - further crippling the doctrine of the trinity. You are protecting an idea that is contrary to scripture in multiple and important ways. Pretending that Yeshua is not in the express image of the person of the Father, and that the Father is only an invisible spirit is merely one of them. Orthodoxy will believe these lies until it is shown it is wrong, when it is left behind. So, it is you who I feel sorry for because you have been blinded by the evolution of trinitarianism. So go ahead. Rather than just posture, go ahead and tear down LDS teaching and show it "is a fraud." I will welcome it, because that will give you an opportunity to see that the LDS teaching and my beliefs are the scriptural teachings on these subjects. 1
RevTestament Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: The world was flatter before the Flood, as it was closer to its original pre-Fall condition. The Flood was the icing on the cake and gave us both the Grand Canyon and the Alps. Fossils are found everywhere, even on the top of mountains. Fossils are the result of quick burial, water, and mud. There are scientist who trust in their own research and evaluations and there are scientists who trust in GOD and His WORD. I have shown that to insist on reading the OT in literal, modern ways is inconsistent with itself. You can believe your literal, world wide flood if you want. I don't believe I will be damned if I don't believe it your way. There are too many other instances when a literal, one dimensional reading just doesn't work, and indeed misses what YHWH is trying to teach. For instance the whole garden of Eden story with a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil and tree of life is clearly imagery designed to teach the gospel. There was no literal tree Eve could go pick fruit off of. The story represents the introduction of God's word into the world, and man's inability to follow it. So man comes to know the good and the bad. He loses innocence, and must learn how to overcome evil and repent. Essentially, it's a parable God uses for teaching like Yeshua uses parables. Some people only see the literal aspect. Some people see the imagery, and the application to their own lives, and so become more perfected by it. I pose when one examines the stories to see how they can apply to themselves, the intricacies of these stories begin to unfold, and themselves show that Moses didn't come up with these things himself, but that they reveal God's plan and penmanship. Like I said, I am not trying to invalidate the scriptures. I pose to you that rather then trying to defend a world-wide flood, you would be better off trying to understand the imagery of the story and why certain animals came in by 2s and others by 7s, and glean what you can from the numbers, etc. The story is also the introduction of the 40 days of trial which becomes significant in scripture.
Stargazer Posted May 17, 2018 Posted May 17, 2018 5 hours ago, RevTestament said: I have shown that to insist on reading the OT in literal, modern ways is inconsistent with itself. You can believe your literal, world wide flood if you want. I don't believe I will be damned if I don't believe it your way. There are too many other instances when a literal, one dimensional reading just doesn't work, and indeed misses what YHWH is trying to teach. For instance the whole garden of Eden story with a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil and tree of life is clearly imagery designed to teach the gospel. There was no literal tree Eve could go pick fruit off of. The story represents the introduction of God's word into the world, and man's inability to follow it. So man comes to know the good and the bad. He loses innocence, and must learn how to overcome evil and repent. Essentially, it's a parable God uses for teaching like Yeshua uses parables. Some people only see the literal aspect. Some people see the imagery, and the application to their own lives, and so become more perfected by it. I pose when one examines the stories to see how they can apply to themselves, the intricacies of these stories begin to unfold, and themselves show that Moses didn't come up with these things himself, but that they reveal God's plan and penmanship. Like I said, I am not trying to invalidate the scriptures. I pose to you that rather then trying to defend a world-wide flood, you would be better off trying to understand the imagery of the story and why certain animals came in by 2s and others by 7s, and glean what you can from the numbers, etc. The story is also the introduction of the 40 days of trial which becomes significant in scripture. Most interesting! Thanks!
snowflake Posted May 18, 2018 Posted May 18, 2018 On 5/17/2018 at 11:24 AM, RevTestament said: 1. Scripture says Yeshua was begotten when the Father sayeth unto Him "thous art my Son. This day I have begotten thee." Yet to maintain its ideas about the doctrine of the trinity, almost all of Christianity chooses not to believe what the scriptures plainly say, and accept the Nicene Creed which was imposed on Christians three hundred years after Christ by law. The creed teaches that He was begotten before all ages or worlds or in other words before time. That is not scriptural, but is a conclusion perceived as being necessary to maintain the theological teaching of the trinity. Thanks for your response Rev....let me start with your idea that Jesus was begotten on a specific day. Now you need to use scripture to interperit scripture. And I believe what scripture plainly says, i'm with you on that, I just do a little more digging. Psalms 2:7 states Psa_2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. And twice that verse is quoted in the NT: Acts 13:33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Hebrews 1:5 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? I would conclude that "this day" was eternally in the past (everlasting) and not a specific day in history. You see how this conclusion ties everything nicely together, no contradiction? Here's a little more to support my conclusion, John 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Pretty clear in scripture that the Nicene creed is correct that he was begotten before all ages or worlds....before time. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
RevTestament Posted May 19, 2018 Posted May 19, 2018 10 hours ago, snowflake said: Thanks for your response Rev....let me start with your idea that Jesus was begotten on a specific day. Now you need to use scripture to interperit scripture. And I believe what scripture plainly says, i'm with you on that, I just do a little more digging. Psalms 2:7 states Psa_2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. And twice that verse is quoted in the NT: Acts 13:33God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Hebrews 1:5 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? I would conclude that "this day" was eternally in the past (everlasting) and not a specific day in history. You see how this conclusion ties everything nicely together, no contradiction? Here's a little more to support my conclusion, John 1:14 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. And John 3:16-18 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Pretty clear in scripture that the Nicene creed is correct that he was begotten before all ages or worlds....before time. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. I agree that He was begotten before He was sent into the world. I believe this was a debate topic in the Arian controversy, and I believe that is why the topic is expressly brought up in the Nicene Creed - to try to counter Arius. You may know that nowhere in any scripture is there a reference to a time and place where Yeshua received this oath from the Father with the possible exception of the version of Luke in the Bezae Codex, which says that at the time of Yeshua's baptism the Father said thou art my son, this day I have begotten thee, rather than the version in prior transcripts of Matthew and Luke which say Thou art my Son in whom I am well pleased. So this issue has been a matter of controversy over the course of Christianity. My interpretation, which essentially no one believes is that Yeshua received this oath in another world or "another place" as Hebrews says. Orthodoxy won't accept that just yet.
LittleNipper Posted May 21, 2018 Posted May 21, 2018 (edited) Please regard the following : https://www.str.org/articles/what-does-it-mean-that-jesus-is-god’s-only-begotten-son#.WwM6DkgvyCg The phrase “only begotten” has been ammunition for false teachers since at least the fourth century at the Council of Nicea. This expression appears in one of the most memorized verses in the Bible. Jesus says, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16 KJV).” Jehovah’s Witnesses, and other cults, have taken this to mean that Jesus was literally begotten. If Jesus was begotten, then he is a created being. Therefore, he cannot be God. Many Christians are unequipped to address this challenge primarily because it trades on the definition of a Greek word. However, once you understand the definition of the Greek work in play, the challenge evaporates. When a Jehovah’s Witnesses offers this challenge, I have a question. It’s the first Columbo question, what do you mean by that? More specifically, what does the original author mean by “only begotten?” Of course, the original author didn’t write in English; he wrote in Greek. The single Greek word translated “only begotten” is monogenes. Ancient writers often used this adjective to describe a child’s unique relationship with their parent. Moreover, the emphasis was on the specific relationship, not the physical begetting itself. In fact, monogenes is better understood to describe a relationship as “one-of-a-kind” or “unique.” This is exactly how the biblical writers would have understood the word. Consider when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac as an offering. God says to Abraham, “Take your son, your only [monogenes] son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you” (Gen. 22:2). Of course, before Abraham can carry out this command, God stops Abraham and says, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only [monogenes] son, from me” (Gen. 22:12). The author of Hebrews picks up on this expression and writes, “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [monogenes] son. . . .” (Heb. 11:17 KJV). We know that Isaac wasn’t literally Abraham’s only begotten son. Isaac was the second son. Ishmael was Abraham’s first-born son. If you understand monogenes as a literal begetting, then God clearly got His facts wrong. However, if you understand monogenes as a unique, one-of-a-kind relationship, then God can accurately describe Isaac his “only” or “only begotten” son. Isaac was the only son of the covenant. Likewise, Jesus is God’s unique, one-of-a-kind Son. You can call him the “only begotten” Son if you like, but remember, this word isn’t about procreation. It’s about a unique relationship between the Father and Son. When many modern ears hear that Jesus is the Father’s “only begotten” Son, they immediately think He must have been created at a point in time. However, this is not the literal begetting of a son from a father. This would grossly distort the author’s original intent, and is why many modern translators have chosen to use “only” (ESV), or “one and only” (NIV, NLT, HCSB, NET) instead of “only begotten” (KJV, NASB). They are trying to avoid unnecessary confusion. Edited May 21, 2018 by LittleNipper
RevTestament Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 Many interpret Arius as saying Yeshua was created, but we really don't know that. One of the few extant writings which claims to be his does not mention Yeshua being created. That may be one of the things Arius believed was possible, but he also believed that we could be begotten like Yeshua, so that doesn't support the idea of being created from nothing like Christians typically use the word. I do believe Yeshua existed before He was begotten, so I don't speak in terms of His being created, although He did gain a new body on this earth. I don't believe that has to do with His begottenness. I believe His begottenness has to do with being called as the Son of the Father. It was the beginning of His calling. It marked the beginning of a covenantal relationship with the Father. Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Ephesians 1:18 18 The eyes of your aunderstanding being benlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the criches of the glory of his dinheritance in the saints,
RevTestament Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 On 5/16/2018 at 10:55 PM, RevTestament said: The Hebrew he·hā·rîm הֶֽהָרִים֙ can and often does refer to hills like in Deut 11:11 where it describes the hills of the land the Hebrews were promised. A 25 foot flood over the hills around Noah is a significant flood, however, Mesopotamia was essentially a flood plain. It was subject to flood from the Persian Gulf and waters channeled from all the lands around it. A significant local flood could be sufficient to flood all the plain and hills in it. Given its geographical vulnerability to flood waters from storm and rain, I believe a hurricane or two could meet the scriptural description given in Genesis. A flood which could wash the ark out of the Persian Gulf and into the Indian Ocean to later land east of where the various semitic kingdoms arose in the area after Noah came from the east. So, I believe the text can be interpreted in a literal sense. However, to believe there was a world-wide flood, does not comport at all with the scientific evidence. Here's a rare example of a storm in the area. If a storm like this went just a little further east, pushing up the Persian Gulf, it could create flood conditions there: https://weather.com/storms/hurricane/news/2018-05-23-tropical-cyclone-mekunu-oman-yemen-arabian-sea A strong storm surge could channel all kinds of water into the Persian Gulf. The entrance would act like a funnel. Due to the pertubation of the earth's axis on a 26,000 year cycle, 5000 year's ago in Noah's day, North Africa, Arabia, and Mesopotamia received more rain. We know that at about this time the large lakes in N. Africa were drying up. So we really don't know how tropical storms would affect the area at the time, but it is quite probable it was more active at the time. A second storm out in the Indian Ocean could continue the rain for days. It is not too unusual for tropical storms and hurricanes to follow one after another.
strappinglad Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 So, I understand they found these horse bones...
RevTestament Posted May 26, 2018 Posted May 26, 2018 35 minutes ago, strappinglad said: So, I understand they found these horse bones... The ones found in the historical level of a Mexican Cave are more interesting ie. relevant.
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