The Demise of Scouting

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I have never been a fan of scouts and the changes recently have only added more reasons to not liking it.  It is perhaps the one calling in the Church that I will refuse.  I don't want to serve in something that I can careless about and now actually sort of despise.

I know many who share your feelings.

It has been a positive thing for me. There are several times in my life when experiences and skills learned in Scouts became very important for my welfare and that of others. My love of the outdoors and the skills needed to live there that I learned in Scouts have been a wonderful blessing.

At the time of life when a boy thought his parents were hopelessly square, along came Howard W. Adams, the Scoutmaster who became one of the 5 most influential men in the boy’s life. Starry nights around the campfire in the New Mexican mountains and desert with Brother Adams and some really good friends .....it just doesn’t get any better than that for a boy.

As we learned in Woodbage training, “It’s all for the boys.”

Edited April 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, kllindley said:

......I don't see it as passing responsibility, and I'm certainly not blaming scouting. I see it as using an available resource and expressing disappointment that it may no longer be available.

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I heartily agree. 

 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, rongo said:

I know from experience that stake camps in our stake cost around $20,000 (girls camp, trek, stake campout). I would also cut back on that (to put it mildly) if I were in charge of a stake. As was said back in 1990, many members think that we somehow "save" our youth with expensive and elaborate activities, but they in no way begin to compensate for failure or casualness in living the gospel in the home. 

Yet when the youth come back from trek or camp helaman they are all fired up, bearing testimonies, tearing up. After the last one, I thought, “what good are all these weekly lessons, classes, activities? Just have one bang-up shindig every summer and they’ll all go on missions and be married in the temple.” 

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Well, I don't quite qualify to answer since my area still uses scouts, but from what I have seen the Duty to God program has not risen to the level where it effectively replaces scouts. I think it was not really designed with that in mind, but has been adapted with that inevitability in mind.  I think that in order to effectively replace scouting, the activities material needs more work. Perhaps that was delayed so as to not be a direct affront to the scouting organization. We are just seeing all the reasons scouting was implemented as a priesthood activity being eroded away. While with their changes scouting may survive, it just keeps becoming a less compelling case for extra-curricular priesthood activities(and YW activities). Maybe it will survive as a combined activity of some sort, but the expense has become an issue as well. It is cheaper just to go make our own reservations at campgrounds than to pay the thousands sometimes involved in scout camps, clothing, badges, etc. It has just become a less useful tool for the Church. It doesn't really seem to expose many non-members to the Church either - at least not in my experience - I think it works some for cub scouts, but in my years, I haven't seen any conversions arise out of it. I do recall some of my kids' friends going on a campout with us, and getting enthused enough to visit Church - one even tried to bear his testimony, but alas nothing lasting has arisen yet. Personally, I would like to see the Church buff up its duty to God or have its own outdoor priesthood activity program of some sort. I think the scouting program did have a major impact on our three boys, and just provided them with a lot of experiences and some close friendships they otherwise would not have had.

Well-said and this follows my thinking very closely. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

One of my non-member friends joined the Church as a result of late-night conversations we had looking at the stars out of our tent door.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

If there hadn't been Mutual, I would never had developed any friends in the Church save one...and while not Utah, California was a Mormon dense area.  While in Illinois, the only activity I had with other Mormon kids was in Primary.

Same for me. In my high school class, there were only 3 or 4 LDS guys. Were it not for MIA and Scouts, we probably would not have become good friends because we ran in different social groups. I doubt I would have gone to BYU or on a mission without that influence.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I had a firm testimony as a teenager and was very faithful but did not attend weekly activities. I had no friends at church and it was awkward for me. I was very active in my high school. I was in Marching Band, on the tennis team and also in clubs. I also had a job once I turned 16...there really wasn't time to go. My mom prayed about it and got the answer to just leave me alone and that I was fine. I was fine...I think every family could consider week night activities as "extra" and not necessarily required. 

I wonder if families would really use that extra night for planned wholesome family activities. Maybe a few? Or would it be like all the other nights with everyone glued to their screens?

[why me]

11 hours ago, rockpond said:

I don't see why this would necessitate that the Church drop Scouting.  Never in my adult life has the Church run our scouting program in a way that was perfectly aligned with the way the BSA designed it (Tigers? 11yo Scouts?).  For example, Venturing was designed to be a co-ed program for 14 and up but we used it for our Priests only.  I see no reason why we can't keep the Cubs as an all boys program in the church.

This is true. If the lds church wishes to still separate boys and girls in their scouting program, they can. Conservative Muslim scout troops are doing it. No way will they allow boys and girls to mingle in the same troop. And no one will force them to do it. The lds church need to take their cue from muslim scout troops in the US. Not only are girls excluded from boy troops and boys excluded from girls troops but also non muslims it seems since they are called muslim scout troops. If true, this would make sense since western attitudes toward sexuality are seen as perhaps corrupting young muslim minds.

https://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/our-stories/girl-scouts/take-action/muslim-girl-scouts-host-open-mosque-role-models.html

https://www.whyislam.org/on-faith/an-islamic-perspective-on-sexual-deviation/

The lds church also separates the sexes in their meetings. Young Womens, Young Mens, Relief Society, Priesthood. No reason not to continue it in the scouts. I find it amazing just how similiar the two faiths are when it comes to social issues. However, it is the church that gets the critique and not islam from the progressive media. But sexuality and desire is one reason to separate the sexes in the scouts.

Edited April 26, 2018 by why me

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yet when the youth come back from trek or camp helaman they are all fired up, bearing testimonies, tearing up. After the last one, I thought, “what good are all these weekly lessons, classes, activities? Just have one bang-up shindig every summer and they’ll all go on missions and be married in the temple.” 

And then they fall out of activity because they aren't in the habit of weekly attendance.

[bsjkki]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yet when the youth come back from trek or camp helaman they are all fired up, bearing testimonies, tearing up. After the last one, I thought, “what good are all these weekly lessons, classes, activities? Just have one bang-up shindig every summer and they’ll all go on missions and be married in the temple.” 

In my experience, those teary eyed testimonies at camp or after trek in no way correlate with future activity. I think the biggest ‘sign’ for future activity is whether your teenager has developed personal faith based actions. Do they pray on their own? Do they have personal scripture study? I think trek can influence some to begin a personal relationship with God but for others, it’s like when Laman and Lemuel saw an angel...big show but not long lasting.

Edited April 26, 2018 by bsjkki

[california boy]

That has been my experience as well.  I remember a young woman in our ward giving the most amazing tearful testimony of how she felt about the church and how true it was after coming back from girls camp.  Within the year she married a non-member and never to my knowledge came back to church.  Didn't see that happening.

Growing up and attending scout camp every year along with all my other member friends was a great experience.  Some were at an organized BSA camp and some were high adventure activities with just LDS troops.  But after high school, most of them dropped out of the church.  I was the only one of the group of about 10 boys to go on a mission.  

I am not discounting the value of such activities.  I am just agreeing that it is no indication of future activity in the church.

[rongo]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yet when the youth come back from trek or camp helaman they are all fired up, bearing testimonies, tearing up. After the last one, I thought, “what good are all these weekly lessons, classes, activities? Just have one bang-up shindig every summer and they’ll all go on missions and be married in the temple.” 

I find the opposite. "Some great thing" (an excellent talk by President Faust, referring to the advice given to Naman by his servant when Elisha told him to wash seven times in the Jordan) never really lasts. Kids who put oil in their lamps, daily, drop by drop have lasting commitment. Kids who "tear up" or who get "all fired up" at firesides, devotionals, camp, trek, EFY, etc., but who do not add oil to their lamps daily, drop by drop, see this "fired-upness" evaporate. I've seen it a million times. This is why I'm not a big fan of "some great thing" (super activities) as a means of winning and keeping our youth. They are pumping a bike tire with a leak. You have to keep pumping it to keep the tire inflated.

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

Is YW camp a ward activity where you both live? Here, it's a stake activity, and therefore it's funded out of the stake budget.

ETA: It looks like it can be funded out of the ward, but it shouldn't do damage to the budget (and other activities) in the process:

 

It's both a stake and ward activity in our stake, it just depends on the year.  We take turns.  But for both stake and ward girls camp the money for the individual girls stills comes from each ward.  The stake also has a stake budget but it does not cover everything.

[bluebell]

17 hours ago, rongo said:

Balance is good. I'm not saying we should do away with youth activities altogether, but I think we have way too many (especially weekly).

Granted, my family is super-close (we are homebodies, and would rather stay home together than go to activities, but we go to support them much more often than we get anything out of them). Others are different and, as you pointed out, very much need them (more than others). 

I think a good balance is somewhere between where we currently are and far, far fewer and less frequent. 

I remember high school in Chicago when *I* was the activation project because I always had school sports. When approached, my dad asked if anyone was concerned about my testimony or my Church attendance, and the answer was always "Oh, no! Not at all." They were just concerned because I didn't go to Scouts. I was made the basketball coach at 16, which was fun. 

 

ETA: Anyone have that Gene R. Cook book excerpt quote handy? Duncan's BYU-I link is now inoperable. He spoke of how his family, when they got home from Brazil or Latin America, were bombarded with like 36 church and school activities in one month. When they chose to go to very few, their bishop tried to reactivate them, and he explained that they went to the "requireds," and then chose which of the "optionals" they would go to. A Scout fundraiser was the straw that broke the camel's back, and the bishop initially told him he didn't feel like their family was supporting ward activities. Elder Cook responded that he thought activities were supposed to support the family, not the other way around. I'm not doing the lengthy quote justice. 

 

We have one activity a week here for youth activities (and that seems normal; it's how it was done in the other states i've lived in).  How many do you guys usually have?  Are you saying that four nights a month is too many?

(I'm not arguing, i'm just not sure if I'm reading you right.  I personally don't have a problem with weekly activities but I think we have way too many activities in the summer.  As I've said before, i will be away from my family overnight for 11 out of a 30 day stretch in June and July and that does not count Stake Youth conference, which is 3 days long but just not overnight and also in June.  I think it's too much).

[rongo]

We also have the standard weekly Mutual activities. I do think weekly is too much, given the counsel over the decades of cultivating family time. I know others disagree and think weekly is not excessive. Interestingly, in the last couple of years the baseline guideline from the Church for boys 14-18 is "at least monthly."

I agree about summer. I have attended the entire camp for our boys and girls for 8 years, but I can with my schedule (teacher). Many leaders can't do that. And, I wouldn't have done that if God hadn't very clearly told me that I needed to . . .  

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I find the opposite. "Some great thing" (an excellent talk by President Faust, referring to the advice given to Naman by his servant when Elisha told him to wash seven times in the Jordan) never really lasts. Kids who put oil in their lamps, daily, drop by drop have lasting commitment. Kids who "tear up" or who get "all fired up" at firesides, devotionals, camp, trek, EFY, etc., but who do not add oil to their lamps daily, drop by drop, see this "fired-upness" evaporate. I've seen it a million times. This is why I'm not a big fan of "some great thing" (super activities) as a means of winning and keeping our youth. They are pumping a bike tire with a leak. You have to keep pumping it to keep the tire inflated.

This has been my experience over the last 20 years, but I am sure some have been exposed to the Church, and joined. Nevertheless, I don't view scouting as an outreach program. I do think it is part of the process of "keeping the tire inflated" as you put it. It helps form lasting bonds which keeps kids interested in their quorums - otherwise they don't seem to really get to know each other like they do at school for instance. I heard some poopoo scouting and activities night on this thread. I wasn't ever much of a basketball player, but I still enjoyed it. However, I'm not into forcing your kid/my kid into doing something they absolutely don't want to do. But for many, if not most, these activities are an important bonding time with other Church youth. I know for myself growing up, the Church dances, and other activities were very important to me, and gave me a social life I otherwise lacked. (I went to an all-male high school). 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

I find the opposite. "Some great thing" (an excellent talk by President Faust, referring to the advice given to Naman by his servant when Elisha told him to wash seven times in the Jordan) never really lasts. Kids who put oil in their lamps, daily, drop by drop have lasting commitment. Kids who "tear up" or who get "all fired up" at firesides, devotionals, camp, trek, EFY, etc., but who do not add oil to their lamps daily, drop by drop, see this "fired-upness" evaporate. I've seen it a million times. This is why I'm not a big fan of "some great thing" (super activities) as a means of winning and keeping our youth. They are pumping a bike tire with a leak. You have to keep pumping it to keep the tire inflated.

I agree, of course. I was being facetious. Should have included a wink. Part of the problem, I think, is that we conflate emotional experiences with spiritual experiences. I wonder if we can “force” the Spirit to come by artificially constructing the right circumstances in a group situation.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

In my experience, those teary eyed testimonies at camp or after trek in no way correlate with future activity. I think the biggest ‘sign’ for future activity is whether your teenager has developed personal faith based actions. Do they pray on their own? Do they have personal scripture study? I think trek can influence some to begin a personal relationship with God but for others, it’s like when Laman and Lemuel saw an angel...big show but not long lasting.

Yep. I suppose we hope such things will provide impetus for faith. We sure put a lot of effort into them.

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 4/23/2018 at 2:42 PM, Oliblish said:

On 4/23/2018 at 11:51 AM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Hey, it's in the realm of possibility that I'll get to take my Laurel daughter to families I've been assigned to Minister to.  Should such a combination make sense.  Right?

Yes, I see no reason for anyone to get all upset when females are allowed to do a couple of things that were exclusively for the boy's club in the past.  No need to worry, there are still plenty of things that only the dudes are able to do so we can still feel special.

Well, there has always been Visiting Teaching.  Just now there's no absolute "two men do HT, and two women do VT, and they are assigned by different auxiliaries and report up separately and don't really have anything to do with each other" any more.   I mean, it still might be that way for 80%+ of the companioning assignments, just that it doesn't have to be that way.

I've seen struggling wards get called to repentance for teaming up a husband and wife, because that's the only way members get visited. 'Twasn't the Lord's way.  Now there's been a tweak, and such things are fine.

[Rock_N_Roll]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

It was almost 20 years ago.  I wasn't in YWs so don't know if the restriction was local or not, but I never heard of YWs taking these kinds of long distance excursions anywhere.  YWs here in Utah, I have heard of going camping in one of the southern Utah national parks (and that was considered unusual), but never out of state.

Our YW (in Utah County) went to Yellowstone (in WY) last summer. 

[bluebell]

Just now, Rock_N_Roll said:

Our YW (in Utah County) went to Yellowstone (in WY) last summer. 

Our YM (Davis County) went to Yellowstone and Teton last year.  I'm hoping to be able to take the Laurels next year for a high adventure type of thing.  We'll see.

[Rock_N_Roll]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Our YM (Davis County) went to Yellowstone and Teton last year.  I'm hoping to be able to take the Laurels next year for a high adventure type of thing.  We'll see.

We had a great bishop, who thought it was a great idea to let the YW do what the YM had done the year before.  But he had to convince the Stake Pres. who apparently has the final say. 

[Rock_N_Roll]

I do believe the Youth, especially those 16 - 18, have too much on their plates.  I wouldn't want to see Mutual discontinued.  Maybe every other week? 

Once, when I was Priest Q. leader, I was asked to go to "Venturing training".  We were told to start the Venturing program in our ward and encourage the YM to start working on earning gold and silver medals, etc.  The next day the Scout Committee chair brought me a list of boys that hadn't yet earned their Eagle and he suggested that I start pushing them to finish.  That very next Sunday, the bishop handed all the boys a Duty to God book and told them to start working on passing off the requirements.  

Mind you, these are 16 to 18 year old boys who have homework every night, are on sports teams, are trying to graduate from H.S. and Seminary and many of whom have part-time jobs.  They just looked at me with glassy eyes that seemed to say "ya-right!". 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Rock_N_Roll

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

We had a great bishop, who thought it was a great idea to let the YW do what the YM had done the year before.  But he had to convince the Stake Pres. who apparently has the final say. 

I grew up outside of Yellowstone and I know so many fun and out of the way things to do and see, we could really have a great time and they could do some awesome stuff that would help with their personal growth.  But, I have to juggle stake girls camp and Daughters of Zion (which is a girls camp experience just for laurel age girls).  There's not much time or money left after all of that.

[bluebell]

33 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

I do believe the Youth, especially those 16 - 18, have too much on their plates.  I wouldn't want to see Mutual discontinued.  Maybe every other week? 

Once, when I was Priest Q. leader, I was asked to go to "Venturing training".  We were told to start the Venturing program in our ward and encourage the YM to start working on earning gold and silver medals, etc.  The next day the Scout Committee chair brought me a list of boys that hadn't yet earned their Eagle and he suggested that I start pushing them to finish.  That very next Sunday, the bishop handed all the boys a Duty to God book and told them to start working on passing off the requirements.  

Mind you, these are 16 to 18 year old boys who have homework every night, are on sports teams, are trying to graduate from H.S. and Seminary and many of whom have part-time jobs.  They just looked at me with glassy eyes that seemed to say "ya-right!". 

I agree!  They are over booked and over scheduled and giving them more to do isn't usually the answer.  I think we as a church needed to get better at worker smarter, not harder.

[mnn727]

On 4/25/2018 at 3:12 PM, rongo said:

ETA: Anyone have that Gene R. Cook book excerpt quote handy? Duncan's BYU-I link is now inoperable. He spoke of how his family, when they got home from Brazil or Latin America, were bombarded with like 36 church and school activities in one month. When they chose to go to very few, their bishop tried to reactivate them, and he explained that they went to the "requireds," and then chose which of the "optionals" they would go to. A Scout fundraiser was the straw that broke the camel's back, and the bishop initially told him he didn't feel like their family was supporting ward activities. Elder Cook responded that he thought activities were supposed to support the family, not the other way around. I'm not doing the lengthy quote justice. 

 

President Faust said a similar thing and I wish I had his exact quote but it was something like; Church activities are there to support the family and parents should feel free to pick and choose which ones their children (and them) will benefit from.