The Demise of Scouting

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Your premise that girls cannot learn skills or have experiences unless boys are present is false.

Where did I state that?  (I didn't....)  

Of course girls can learn skills and have experiences without boys being present.  I've never claimed otherwise.  

You are the one who is stating that scouts will "fail" if girls are allowed to join. 

Can you answer these questions I asked:

Quote

Who does it hurt to allow some girls to benefit from the skills taught and experiences provided through the Cub Scout program?  Can you name anything specific here regarding the harm this may cause?

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by ALarson

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Boys are not allowed to be boys and they cannot have anything that is for boys.  We need to take care of girls because after all, they are exceling in school, they are exceling in college, and they are exceling in their careers....and they are failing at home because motherhood and all that stuff is just too confining and ickey. And boys?  Who the heck cares. 

 

I think it is a mistake to frame the Boy Scout changes as being some action against groups for boys/men.  It would seem that the problem was caused by shifts in society where fewer and fewer boys were signing up for the program.  If the Boy Scouts were struggling, it was an inside job, not because of any outside attack from women demanding to be included.

 

 

[The Nehor]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, Sister Gui and I have raised 6 boys. We have a combined 62 years teaching in the public schools. I have held every Scouting position from Den Leader to District Commissionser to Summer Camp Director. We have noticed the changes. They are not subtle.

Yet the male gender, for all practical purposes, still runs the world.

[CA Steve]

29 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Where did I state that?  (I didn't....)  

Of course girls can learn skills and have experiences without boys being present.  I've never claimed otherwise.  

You are the one who is stating that scouts will "fail" if girls are allowed to join. 

Can you answer these questions I asked:

 

If you allow young LDS girls to participate in a program designed for  boys, when they get older they may demand to participate in other male designated programs like say home teaching. Just imagine the chaos that would cause. The church would be forced to totally revamp the home teaching program just to accommodate these demanding girls. And, In order to get male members to accept that huge change the church would have to present it like it was a revelation just so the men would not complain about women encroaching on their turf.

 

Of course that would never happen.

Edited April 24, 2018 by CA Steve

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Where did I state that?  (I didn't....)  

Of course girls can learn skills and have experiences without boys being present.  I've never claimed otherwise.  

Here's what you said. 

Quote

The whining by some here about how tragic it is that girls and women can now be a part of some things that used to be "men only" or "boys only" is a bit embarrassing, IMO.  Who does it hurt to allow some girls to benefit from the skills taught and experiences provided through the Cub Scout program?

 

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

You are the one who is stating that scouts will "fail" if girls are allowed to join. 

If you mean Scouts will fold up their tents and pack on out to the dustbin of the failed patriarchy, no.

"Scouts" will continue in their new direction, but the fundamental purpose of Brownsea Island "Scouting for Boys" and its American iteration which were to use outdoor experiences and skills to socialize young men in the presence exemplary men will be lost. Some will applaud that. Some will call it failure. Scouting will lose many traditional participants, membership, and funding, but it may gain more (probably not) as it more and more becomes an organization to provide fun stuff for kids. We shall see how it shakes out. 

Time will tell if that is a good move for "Scouting" and for boys.

It's interesting that the one group that really opposes this move by Boy Scouts is the Girl Scouts. AFAIK, they still do not accept boys as members, but there are pressures being brought on them to fold. I hope they don't.

There are plenty of opportunities for boys and girls to socialize and learn together. Families, YMCA, clubs, band, orchestra, choir, neighborhoods, and 7 hours a day in school comes to mind. Who is hurt by having them meet 2 hours a week in separate groups and go on excursions and activities once a month? No one can be hurt by that.

180 days of school X 7 hours per day = 1260 hours per year in school.

52 weekly meetings X 2 hours per meeting = 104 hours in scout meetings + whatever weekend activities = not nearly as much time spent socializing and learning in school.

Why is that a bad thing?

Edited April 24, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yet the male gender, for all practical purposes, still runs the world.

Yes, and that toxicity must be neutralized. Got any suggestions?

[Bernard Gui]

46 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I think it is a mistake to frame the Boy Scout changes as being some action against groups for boys/men.  It would seem that the problem was caused by shifts in society where fewer and fewer boys were signing up for the program.  If the Boy Scouts were struggling, it was an inside job, not because of any outside attack from women demanding to be included.

I don't think it's quite that simple. There are general societal trends and movements that are also at play.

[ALarson]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Here's what you said. 

"The whining by some here about how tragic it is that girls and women can now be a part of some things that used to be "men only" or "boys only" is a bit embarrassing, IMO.  Who does it hurt to allow some girls to benefit from the skills taught and experiences provided through the Cub Scout program?"

Correct.  But that's not what you accused me of stating, is it?  I've never claimed that "girls cannot learn skills or have experiences unless boys are present".  That's a false accusation on your part.

And, I see that you once again avoided answering my questions (asked twice):

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Who does it hurt to allow some girls to benefit from the skills taught and experiences provided through the Cub Scout program?  Can you name anything specific here regarding the harm this may cause?

Any responses to these questions?

Edited April 24, 2018 by ALarson

[Bernard Gui]

35 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

If you allow young LDS girls to participate in a program designed for  boys, when they get older they may demand to participate in other male designated programs like say home teaching. Just imagine the chaos that would cause. The church would be forced to totally revamp the home teaching program just to accommodate these demanding girls. And, In order to get male members to accept that huge change the church would have to present it like it was a revelation just so the men would not complain about women encroaching on their turf.

Of course that would never happen.

An interesting anecdotal experience....

We have a large Pacific Islander community in our area. I had some of them as students in my school orchestra. Two were brother and sister. When she turned 16, the family put on a huge traditional coming-of-age celebration for her, including flying a huge number of family members over from the island. Dancing, food, all sorts of cool stuff. Her teachers were invited as guests of honor. The seats and tables were set on the floor and on risers in a hierarchical manner from bottom to top with all honored guests arranged by category, family at the top. We teachers were singled out and given the gift of a beautiful hand-made quilt. It was a spectacular event.

As I watched, I wondered where her brother was. In fact, there were no boys in the room. Afterwards, I went back to my car, and there were all the boys hanging out in the parking lot, slouching around, doing regular guy stuff. I asked myself, "What is the coming-of-age event for these fellows? What was done back on the island to socialize and elevate them? Has it travelled over the waters with their families? Did it have to do with their gender roles, their masculine activities, their history?" As far as I can tell, no, there is nothing here for them. But they do have Islander gangs as an outlet. Some trade that is.

My point....I think we ignore or deny gender differences and needs at our peril, especially when it comes to young men.

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Correct.  But that's not what you accused me of stating, is it?  I've never claimed that "girls cannot learn skills or have experiences unless boys are present".  That's a false accusation on your part.

And, I see that you once again avoided answering my questions (asked twice):

Any responses to these questions?

No, it's not false. You said, "The whining by some here about how tragic it is that girls and women can now be a part of some things that used to be "men only" or "boys only" is a bit embarrassing, IMO." I take that to mean that you think girls must be admitted into Boy Scouts because that "boys only" groups have something unique that is withheld from girls. If my understanding is wrong, then I don't see what we are arguing about.

I have pointed out that Girl Scouts (and other organizations) provide those very opportunities for girls. You have not objected to them, have you? There is nothing wrong or embarrassing with having gender-specific organizations. 

Quote

1. Who does it hurt to allow some girls to benefit from the skills taught and experiences provided through the Cub Scout program?  2. Can you name anything specific here regarding the harm this may cause?

1. That's absurd. No one claims that. There are lots of other places they can have those experiences, unless you mean they can only learn those by becoming Cub or Boy Scouts.....

2. If you mean girls having similar experiences, none. If you mean making Boy Scouts into Scouts, then boys and Scouts (and possibly girls) are harmed. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Your premise that girls cannot learn skills or have experiences unless boys are present is false.

CFR

Where have I stated that "girls cannot learn skills or have experiences unless boys are present"?

I have repeatedly stated that I see nothing wrong with including girls in activities where they can also learn some skills and experiences as others have learned through the Cub Scout program.  I have stated nothing about this being the only way girls can learn these skills or that boys have to be present in order for girls to learn them.  That's a ridiculous claim you're making here.

Edited April 24, 2018 by ALarson

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My point....I think we ignore or deny gender differences and needs at our peril, especially when it comes to young men.

Can you explain what you mean when you say that it's more perilous to ignore or deny gender differences for young men than for young women?

[ALarson]

23 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Quote

1. Who does it hurt to allow some girls to benefit from the skills taught and experiences provided through the Cub Scout program?  2. Can you name anything specific here regarding the harm this may cause?

1. That's absurd. No one claims that. There are lots of other places they can have those experiences, unless you mean they can only learn those by becoming Cub or Boy Scouts.....

2. If you mean girls having similar experiences, none. If you mean making Boy Scouts into Scouts, then boys and Scouts (and possibly girls) are harmed. 

Are these actually your answers to my questions?   You didn't even address the actual questions!  So maybe I'm misunderstanding and you're still not answering my questions (with specific examples).   Your answers don't even seem related to what I was asking you (?).

You are the one claiming that allowing girls into scouting will lead to the "Demise of Scouting" and that you are "sad to see the program fail".  How about you really answer my two questions above and back up your statements with some specific examples?

Edited April 24, 2018 by ALarson

[strappinglad]

I remember when there were ' men's clubs ' with no women members allowed. A great fuss arose and those restrictions were removed because... equality . However, having a women only club or fitness group was perfectly fine, no complaints accepted.

[cinepro]

16 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I remember when there were ' men's clubs ' with no women members allowed. A great fuss arose and those restrictions were removed because... equality . However, having a women only club or fitness group was perfectly fine, no complaints accepted.

No complaints indeed...

Lawyer's Suit Challenges Women-Only Gyms

[why me]

4 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

I can't tell if this is satire or not....

I was serious. Islam is very much about segregating the sexes to prevent temptation, especially for boys and girls. Many devote muslims will definitely withdraw their children from the scouting program if it is coed. In Germany some muslim parents do not allow their daughters to go on class trips because boys are present on the trip too.

https://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/our-stories/girl-scouts/take-action/muslim-girl-scouts-host-open-mosque-role-models.html

There is no way these girls will be joining the boys anytime soon. They will remain separate.

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by why me

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No one is saying there is something wrong with co-ed activities unless they involve physical or intimate contact or situations.. There are plenty of people saying there is something wrong with all-male activities. 

Is there anyone here saying it?

[Rain]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I remember when there were ' men's clubs ' with no women members allowed. A great fuss arose and those restrictions were removed because... equality . However, having a women only club or fitness group was perfectly fine, no complaints accepted.

The problem with the men's clubs, at least as far as I understand it, but am willing to be corrected on it, was not that they were for men only. It was the business that was conducted there that left women at a real disadvantage if they wanted to be on equal footing in business and careers. I would be totally fine if my husband was in a men only club where he socialized. I wouldn't be happy with him if he was making plans with male co-workers and his single female co-worker wasn't allowed to be there - luckily he feels even stronger about that than I do.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Rain

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have pointed out that Girl Scouts (and other organizations) provide those very opportunities for girls. You have not objected to them, have you? There is nothing wrong or embarrassing with having gender-specific organizations. 

And new gender specific organizations can start up or grow by any of those who are looking for gender specific activities.

BSA was not forced by outsiders by any lawsuit I am aware of.  If the organization chose it on its own, is there an issue still and if so, why?

[why me]

The mormons should copy the muslims when it comes to scouting in the US and in Europe:

https://books.google.fi/books?id=Yx06DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT64&lpg=PT64&dq=muslim+reaction+to+the+scouting+program+in+the+US+i+girls+can+join+the+boys&source=bl&ots=DN-7Uhhj49&sig=j-MAC3Ls3vQCGQ4mIHka9BB1oqk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6wKuG2NPaAhUMP5oKHfLVDV8Q6AEIlAEwCQ#v=onepage&q=muslim reaction to the scouting program in the US i girls can join the boys&f=false

As we can see, they prefer to be separate from the nonmuslims to avoid corruption. No monkey business with relativist western values. Mormons use to be the same way, with mormon scout troops. Mormons have lost their way.

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, and that toxicity must be neutralized. Got any suggestions?

Flood the earth again and start over.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

An interesting anecdotal experience....

We have a large Pacific Islander community in our area. I had some of them as students in my school orchestra. Two were brother and sister. When she turned 16, the family put on a huge traditional coming-of-age celebration for her, including flying a huge number of family members over from the island. Dancing, food, all sorts of cool stuff. Her teachers were invited as guests of honor. The seats and tables were set on the floor and on risers in a hierarchical manner from bottom to top with all honored guests arranged by category, family at the top. We teachers were singled out and given the gift of a beautiful hand-made quilt. It was a spectacular event.

As I watched, I wondered where her brother was. In fact, there were no boys in the room. Afterwards, I went back to my car, and there were all the boys hanging out in the parking lot, slouching around, doing regular guy stuff. I asked myself, "What is the coming-of-age event for these fellows? What was done back on the island to socialize and elevate them? Has it travelled over the waters with their families? Did it have to do with their gender roles, their masculine activities, their history?" As far as I can tell, no, there is nothing here for them. But they do have Islander gangs as an outlet. Some trade that is.

My point....I think we ignore or deny gender differences and needs at our peril, especially when it comes to young men.

Since tattoos are not encouraged in LDS societies,traditional Samoan male rites of passages don't exactly transfer well:

http://www.samoaobserver.ws/en/13_06_2016/columns/7358/TRADITIONAL-TATTOOING-IN-CONTEMPORARY-SAMOAN-SOCIETY.htm

[bluebell]

Just now, Calm said:

Since tattoos are not encouraged in LDS societies,traditional Samoan male rites of passages don't exactly transfer well:

http://www.samoaobserver.ws/en/13_06_2016/columns/7358/TRADITIONAL-TATTOOING-IN-CONTEMPORARY-SAMOAN-SOCIETY.htm

I was thinking the same thing.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Flood the earth again and start over.

You think it would all be different after that? Something about the nature and  disposition of almost all men.......

Edited April 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

And new gender specific organizations can start up or grow by any of those who are looking for gender specific activities.

BSA was not forced by outsiders by any lawsuit I am aware of.  If the organization chose it on its own, is there an issue still and if so, why?

The issue for me is that they threw it in the face of their own strongest supporters. A lot of people feel they are being thrown under the bus. The lawsuits were inevitable.

I casually met a fellow my age on a snowfield on Mt Rainier today. Somehow our conversation turned to Scouting. He expressed his dismay at what is happening to the organization from which he earned his Eagle badge as a boy. There are many who feel this way.

It would be nearly impossible for a start-up organization to rebuild the support, tradition, competence, and resources that were at the heart of this institution and put into place by thousands of devoted leaders and millions of participants for over 100 years. 

Besides, the same could be said of those who pushed the new policies....they could have started their own organization rather than co-op an existing one. 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui