JulieM Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 On 4/23/2018 at 11:45 AM, ALarson said: This will be interesting to watch from here, but I don't believe it's a negative thing. If the church sticks with the Cub Scout program, why couldn't there be girls involved? There are already women called to serve as leaders. I agree with you. I asked my son (he’s a Cub Scout) how he would feel if girls could be a part of his troop. He was like, “Hey! That would be cool!” Of course, he’s pretty girl crazy too. Ha! 1
Calm Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: The issue for me is that they threw it in the face of their own strongest supporters. A lot of people feel they are being thrown under the bus. The lawsuits were inevitable. I casually met a fellow my age on a snowfield on Mt Rainier today. Somehow our conversation turned to Scouting. He expressed his dismay at what is happening to the organization from which he earned his Eagle badge as a boy. There are many who feel this way. It would be nearly impossible for a start-up organization to rebuild the support, tradition, competence, and resources that were at the heart of this institution and put into place by thousands of devoted leaders and millions of participants. Besides, the same could be said of those who pushed the new policies....they could have started their own organization rather than co-op an existing one. Traditions and heritage can be important in helping people feel ties to their community. It is a definite resource that should not be easily discarded. The questions are for me how many traditions can be put aside and still be the same organization/heritage as well as whether or not traditions should be held on to just because they are traditions or should people be willing to change if most believe it is a better way. I have no clue if the majority of those who volunteered or donated would have preferred Scputing to remain single gendered. If it was a majority and leadership went against their wishes, then that is likely going to lead many to leave...and unfortunately that means a loss of heritage for them. Otoh, this may open up a heritage to many who would not have been able receive it in another way ( Girl Scouts is not as widespread, there may be families who could not afford the needed resources to support their children's activity in two different groups), Edited April 25, 2018 by Calm 1
Calm Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) "1.8 million girl members and 800,000 adult members working primarily as volunteers" That is almost one adult for every two girls in Girl Scouts. https://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/who-we-are/facts.html on a side note, I went to Juliette Low Elementary back in the day. There has been a significant drop in girl members in the past five years : "In 2013 there were over 3.2 million Girl Scouts: 2.3 million girl members and 890,000 adult members in the United States." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girl_Scouts_of_the_USA Boy Scouts is not that different, imo : "2.4 million youth participants and nearly one million adult volunteers" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America I wonder if I got the impression it was tons bigger due to GS being of low visibility in the Church. Edited April 25, 2018 by Calm
Bernard Gui Posted April 25, 2018 Author Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 58 minutes ago, JulieM said: Of course, he’s pretty girl crazy too. Ha! Yep. That could be a problem. Edited April 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui
kllindley Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 10 hours ago, ALarson said: Who does it hurt to allow some girls to benefit from the skills taught and experiences provided through the Cub Scout program? Can you name anything specific here regarding the harm this may cause? The boys. The loss of gender specific activities and same sex learning environment. There is a lot of research into the idea of same sex education, specifically that the boys do better academically and socially. But that's not politically correct to say. 1
kllindley Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 27 minutes ago, JulieM said: I agree with you. I asked my son (he’s a Cub Scout) how he would feel if girls could be a part of his troop. He was like, “Hey! That would be cool!” Of course, he’s pretty girl crazy too. Ha! And you don't see how that might change the group dynamics? 1
Kenngo1969 Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: Yet the male gender, for all practical purposes, still runs the world. 10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Yes, and that toxicity must be neutralized. Got any suggestions? 7 hours ago, The Nehor said: Flood the earth again and start over. Anybody seen a rainbow lately? 1
Calm Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 12 minutes ago, kllindley said: The boys. The loss of gender specific activities and same sex learning environment. There is a lot of research into the idea of same sex education, specifically that the boys do better academically and socially. But that's not politically correct to say. Girls too..at least in the past, haven't kept up with the research.
Rivers Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 If the church really does break its ties with Boy Scouts of America, I can see Pres. Nelson being the one to do it. The church could then do its own program for young men at a lower cost. 2
JulieM Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 17 minutes ago, kllindley said: And you don't see how that might change the group dynamics? Of course. But change isn’t always a bad thing.
JulieM Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 19 minutes ago, kllindley said: The boys. I don’t see it doing harm to the boys. Let those girls join who enjoy the same things that are a part of cub activities. All girls won’t join. I’m sure many would rather join Girl Scouts anyway.
kllindley Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, Calm said: Girls too..at least in the past, haven't kept up with the research. I believe you are correct. I'm sorry for not being more inclusive.
kllindley Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 Just now, JulieM said: I don’t see it doing harm to the boys. Let those girls join who enjoy the same things that are a part of cub activities. All girls won’t join. I’m sure many would rather join Girl Scouts anyway. It probably won't harm the cute, popular boys. They'll still get attention. 1
JulieM Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 1 minute ago, kllindley said: It probably won't harm the cute, popular boys. They'll still get attention. You’re probably right!
Calm Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, kllindley said: I believe you are correct. I'm sorry for not being more inclusive. Don't worry about it. That didn't occur to me. Just trying to inform. Edited April 25, 2018 by Calm 1
Calm Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, JulieM said: I don’t see it doing harm to the boys. Let those girls join who enjoy the same things that are a part of cub activities. All girls won’t join. I’m sure many would rather join Girl Scouts anyway. Girl Scouts may offer pretty much the same activities as Cub/Boy Scouts: https://www.girlscouts.org/en/our-program/our-program.html Quote Along the way, she’ll gain important skills in four areas that form the foundation of the Girl Scout Leadership Experience: Science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) Outdoors Life Skills Entrepreneurship While she may be exposed to these subjects at school, in other youth programs, or even on her own, at Girl Scouts she’ll experience them in a unique way that puts her on a path to a lifetime of leadership, adventure, and success. And because our program is girl-led, girls decide what they’ll do, together. If so, if the same activities could be participated in by girls in Girl Scouts without joining Boy Scouts, would you see any reason not to keep Boy and Girl Scouts gendered? Edited April 25, 2018 by Calm
Bernard Gui Posted April 25, 2018 Author Posted April 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, JulieM said: I don’t see it doing harm to the boys. Let those girls join who enjoy the same things that are a part of cub activities. All girls won’t join. I’m sure many would rather join Girl Scouts anyway. Depends on what you mean by harm.
kllindley Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 13 minutes ago, JulieM said: You’re probably right! I worry about the shy or awkward or overweight or for any reason less popular boys who just lost the chance to build friendships with other boys through scouting. Now the girls that are already in primary classes and the whole school day, have taken that away too. 2
JulieM Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Calm said: Girl Scouts may offer pretty much the same activities as Cub/Boy Scouts: https://www.girlscouts.org/en/our-program/our-program.html If so, if the same activities could be participated in by girls in Girl Scouts without joining Boy Scouts, would you see any reason not to keep Boy and Girl Scouts gendered? Not really. I honestly don’t have strong feelings one way or the other. I do know that as a youth I envied all the cool things my older brothers got to do in scouting vs. those offered to girls (at least mine locally, others may have more). I do think it’s kind of a common feeling among the young women. Of course, some are happy they don’t have the same activities (and some boys hate scouting). It’s hard to please everyone (actually it’s impossible!). Edited April 25, 2018 by JulieM
The Nehor Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: You think it would all be different after that? Something about the nature and disposition of almost all men....... Okay fine, throw in some eugenics to make sure it turns out right this time.
JulieM Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Depends on what you mean by harm. I think most would accept and adapt and be just fine as long as they continued being able to enjoy the activities and have fun. I’m sure some would hate having the girls there though (you know, cooties and all that ).
JulieM Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, kllindley said: I worry about the shy or awkward or overweight or for any reason less popular boys who just lost the chance to build friendships with other boys through scouting. Now the girls that are already in primary classes and the whole school day, have taken that away too. You make a good point. A boy who feels that way may even stop attending. I’ll bet the church troops will stay the way they are (all boys). Hopefully they will have that choice. 1
kllindley Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 3 minutes ago, JulieM said: I think most would accept and adapt and be just fine as long as they continued being able to enjoy the activities and have fun. I’m sure some would hate having the girls there though (you know, cooties and all that ). That's the issue. Even assuming the activities stayed the same, the experience would be totally different. In many ways, I'm sure most would adapt and accept and still have fun. And at the same time miss out on a valuable opportunity to build brotherhood, confidence in their own masculinity, and the assurance that they belong with other boys. 1
kllindley Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, JulieM said: You make a good point. A boy who feels that way may even stop attending. I’ll bet the church troops will stay the way they are (all boys). Hopefully they will have that choice. I hope they do, too. For the record, I don't think there's anything about scouting itself that has to be all boy. It's just that I think something needs to be. What else is left? 2
Bernard Gui Posted April 25, 2018 Author Posted April 25, 2018 15 minutes ago, JulieM said: I think most would accept and adapt and be just fine as long as they continued being able to enjoy the activities and have fun. I’m sure some would hate having the girls there though (you know, cooties and all that ). It goes much deeper than cooties.
Recommended Posts