Who heard the disruption?

[Kenngo1969]

35 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

So rape isn't immoral?

 

12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Not to the victim.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I value precision in language, so I would say that while most all right-thinking people think rape, in the abstract, is immoral, to its victims, rape is especially immoral (and in far more than simply an abstract sense).

[Glenn101]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm hesitant to bring this up, but just read on a post on FB about a case of sexual harassment by Thomas L. Monson. Do any of you know about this in the news? https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16516501/mormon_prophets_son_accused_of_sexual/ 

What happened? Was there any punishment to Monson? It doesn't appear to have been. 

Punished by whom? He lost his job over the sexual harassment allegations. Details about what happened or what was alleged to have happen are scant. For church action to have been taken, witnesses would have had to testify against him. This one is best left to history as we have little to no information on which to make a judgement. (My opinion anyway.)

Glenn

[Duncan]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm hesitant to bring this up, but just read on a post on FB about a case of sexual harassment by Thomas L. Monson. Do any of you know about this in the news? https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16516501/mormon_prophets_son_accused_of_sexual/ 

What happened? Was there any punishment to Monson? It doesn't appear to have been. 

I remember hearing about this, probably why we never hear about him or for that matter his brother (not that he was accused of anything but we only hear about his daughter Ann Dibb)

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Punished by whom? He lost his job over the sexual harassment allegations. Details about what happened or what was alleged to have happen are scant. For church action to have been taken, witnesses would have had to testify against him. This one is best left to history as we have little to no information on which to make a judgement. (My opinion anyway.)

Glenn

Apparently the case was settled and he works for Kirton/McConkie now. I guess you can read the full story for a fee or something, I read it secondhand.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Tacenda

[rongo]

6 hours ago, mtomm said:

To have done so would have caused major discord in my own marriage. In fact, it did cause it. My husband was furious that I wasn't just accepting of the "we'll send him home" scenario and threatened to quit his bishop calling over my stubborness. I felt I did what I could to escalate it since this was not my family. Of course, in hindsight my husband also realizes the truth now. 

But I shouldn't have had to. This is the culture of cover-up that everyone faithful LDS insists doesn't happen. Yet this is exactly what happened. The onus shouldn't have been on me! I'm not the one guilty of "passing the trash."  The parents should not have been lied to. If the culture truly is that this type of behavior is not tolerated then it would not have been tolerated. It's been 6 or 7 years now and I'm not convinced things are getting better. 

Wow, this sounds stressful and anguishing to have gone through --- for you and your husband (of course for the victims first and foremost).

I think it illustrates the pitfalls of Church action or formal discipline being too light or not going far enough. I've often emphasized in disciplinary councils the importance of the band aid being big enough for the wound, but not too big for the wound. That is the point of the revelation sought --- to determine the will of God as far as the person in question goes and for the victims and people whose testimonies or feelings towards the Church are hazarded. What is God's will and the best thing for all involved? There are many anecdotes we all have where the Church took no action or woefully light action, and no good comes from that. And, sometimes the action can be tantamount to killing a fly with a bazooka. 

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm hesitant to bring this up, but just read on a post on FB about a case of sexual harassment by Thomas L. Monson. Do any of you know about this in the news? https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16516501/mormon_prophets_son_accused_of_sexual/ 

What happened? Was there any punishment to Monson? It doesn't appear to have been. 

I'm not a lawyer, and this post does not constitute legal advice.  Anyone needing such advice regarding the issues under discussion should seek the advice of an attorney licensed to practice in the jurisdiction where the matter arose.  Now, with that out of the way ...  

I'm not defending sexual harassment in any way.  When it occurs, it is abhorrent and reprehensible.  While they do not involve sexual harassment, I have been the subject of false allegations.  When someone is sued, when a trial occurs pursuant to that suit/complaint, and when a verdict is reached following trial, for legal purposes, the issues decided at trial are considered to have been proven.  However, short of such a verdict, the situation is much different. 

There are many reasons why someone who is not liable for conduct alleged in a complaint might, nonetheless, choose to agree to a settlement: Litigation is expensive (there's an old saying in law that, "The only winners in this case were the lawyers"); it is time-consuming; it is emotionally draining; it exacts emotional, financial, and reputational tolls on the litigants and, often, on their friends and families (after former Secretary of Labor in the Reagan Administration, Raymond Donovan, was acquitted of [probably spurious] criminal charges in the 1980s, he asked "What office do I go to to get my reputation back?"  I could ask the same question); and there are many other reasons why someone might choose to settle rather than going through discovery, pretrial motions, a trial, possible subsequent appeals, and so on.

All the reasons why someone might choose to settle even if he is not liable for any of the conduct alleged in a complaint are also potential reasons why he might not face Church discipline for such allegations: The bottom line is, allegations are one thing; evidence is another; and proof by the relevant legal standard is still another.  Almost anyone can file a complaint against almost anyone else, for almost anything.  It's a long way from filing a complaint to proving the conduct alleged by the relevant legal standard ("by a preponderance of the evidence," that the conduct alleged is more likely than not to have occurred, or "50 percent, plus a smidgeon," in civil cases).  While I believe it is possible, depending on what information he has, for a leader in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to initiate Church discipline on his own (someone more in-the-know than I am is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong), it's possible that no one complained to Church leaders.  In any event, even if they had, just as is the case in a court of law, what would have happened in such a case would have depended entirely on what evidence existed to support the allegations.

There's a reason why, often, settlements are called, "go-away money," and settlements are far from any proof that the wrongdoing alleged in a particular complaint actually occurred.  (In fact, it's not uncommon for psuedo-plaintiffs to file civil complaints not because their case has any merit, but, rather, simply in the hope that they'll be paid off in precisely this manner.)  A newspaper clipping regarding a settlement does not constitute evidence of wrongdoing, either in a Church Disciplinary Council or in a court of law.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

I remember hearing about this, probably why we never hear about him or for that matter his brother (not that he was accused of anything but we only hear about his daughter Ann Dibb)

Objection!  Assumes facts not in evidence!  (I'm not a lawyer: I just "play" one at MD&DB ... )

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

I remember hearing about this, probably why we never hear about him or for that matter his brother (not that he was accused of anything but we only hear about his daughter Ann Dibb)

Pres. Hinckley had 5 children, I remember only hearing about two of them.

Some people don't like the limelight.  Hopefully parents in the public view won't force their children to share it if they don't want to.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm hesitant to bring this up, but just read on a post on FB about a case of sexual harassment by Thomas L. Monson. Do any of you know about this in the news? https://www.newspapers.com/clip/16516501/mormon_prophets_son_accused_of_sexual/ 

What happened? Was there any punishment to Monson? It doesn't appear to have been. 

Sexual harassment covers a lot of behaviours.  Have you seen any details on specifics?

There were two parts to the lawsuit as far as I could tell, the alleged sexual harassment (no details given) and the firing after she filed an accusation against TL Monson.  Monson could have been fired because he fired her for filing an accusation.  He could have been fired because they believed the accusation.  Or both.  No details are given to judge, however.****

If he fired the woman, do you believe the Church should have done any discipline?

Since you don't know what the alleged harassment involved, do you assume that any level of harassment automatically requires punishment?

This did not happen under Church authority (not during Church or in a Church owned company).  We don't know if Bottomly was a member or if she was willing to report to church leaders what happened.  Maybe she could have cared less what happened to Monson at church and wasn't about to waste any time talking to total strangers about something that was sensitive to her, especially given the lawyers grilled her.

The company was not owned by the Church.  Do you believe they should have given the lawsuit information to the Church, including the info they collected on Bottomly?

If there was informal or formal discipline given to TL Monson, do you believe it should have been reported in the newspaper?  If not, how do you believe we should have learned what the discipline was?

Replace TL Monson with your husband.  How would you react reading his name in the article?  Would you automatically assume he was guilty of sexual harassment because he was accused?  Would you want everyone to know if he was informally or formally disciplined?

****Apparently the company fired her after finding her claims were groundless even though they had assured her her job was safe.

Monson filed a defamation suit against Bottomly for the allegations that was dismissed as part of the settlement.

The allegations, if true, would have require formal discipline imo, but would not have been of the rare type that would have warranted publication.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Calm

[Duncan]

22 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Objection!  Assumes facts not in evidence!  (I'm not a lawyer: I just "play" one at MD&DB ... )

Video deleted. No politics please.

 

neither am I but this is really awkward!

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Sexual harassment covers a lot of behaviours.  Have you seen any details on specifics?

 

Yes, and they are disturbing. But I didn't post them because it would be secondhand. You have to pay to open up the report, or maybe be a lawyer or something. And I understand how devasting that report might be to his family members if true. I just wondered if any of you knew about this and could verify or dispel it. 

It just seems that nearly every day there is another report, and media is not letting it stay hidden. I guess it's shocking to me. And maybe if I stayed off social media I'd be blissfully unaware. But maybe these things getting out will make someone think hard about committing the crime/sin. Although that shouldn't be the only reason they should not commit them. I think the metoo movement will roll forth and more people will come out. So it's probably going to get worse, or better however you look at it. I think things left hidden aren't always good, and not even good for the culprits. They need it to air out for the repentance process to work in their lives and others.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, and they are disturbing. But I didn't post them because it would be secondhand. You have to pay to open up the report, or maybe be a lawyer or something. And I understand how devasting that report might be to his family members if true. I just wondered if any of you knew about this and could verify or dispel it. 

It just seems that nearly every day there is another report, and media is not letting it stay hidden. I guess it's shocking to me. And maybe if I stayed off social media I'd be blissfully unaware. But maybe these things getting out will make someone think hard about committing the crime/sin. Although that shouldn't be the only reason they should not commit them. I think the metoo movement will roll forth and more people will come out. So it's probably going to get worse, or better however you look at it. I think things left hidden aren't always good, and not even good for the culprits. They need it to air out for the repentance process to work in their lives and others.

And here's another. https://www.eastidahonews.com/2018/04/idaho-falls-doctor-artificially-impregnated-patient-with-his-own-semen-lawsuit-claims/ I'm reeling.. what is going on. This isn't sexual but so wrong. How are church leaders not getting the right signals? 

[ALarson]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And here's another. https://www.eastidahonews.com/2018/04/idaho-falls-doctor-artificially-impregnated-patient-with-his-own-semen-lawsuit-claims/ I'm reeling.. what is going on. This isn't sexual but so wrong. How are church leaders not getting the right signals? 

Is this the same Gerald E. Mortimer who became a mission president?

http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/57979/New-temple-presidents.html

If so....wow!  He used his own sperm to impregnate a patient?  

Here's the story in the Salt Lake Trib:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/nation-world/2018/04/03/a-woman-said-an-ancestrycom-dna-test-told-her-she-had-a-different-father-her-parents-fertility-doctor/

[Jeanne]

18 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but I value precision in language, so I would say that while most all right-thinking people think rape, in the abstract, is immoral, to its victims, rape is especially immoral (and in far more than simply an abstract sense).

I almost quoted to say this yesterday...how easy it is to be misunderstood.  That is why I don't think anything was intentional..but we all need to be more clarifying...me...especially.  That being said..if you are speaking for God..be careful.  I just speak for me...

[CMZ]

On 4/3/2018 at 2:22 PM, mtomm said:

To have done so would have caused major discord in my own marriage. In fact, it did cause it. My husband was furious that I wasn't just accepting of the "we'll send him home" scenario and threatened to quit his bishop calling over my stubborness. I felt I did what I could to escalate it since this was not my family. Of course, in hindsight my husband also realizes the truth now. 

But I shouldn't have had to. This is the culture of cover-up that everyone faithful LDS insists doesn't happen. Yet this is exactly what happened. The onus shouldn't have been on me! I'm not the one guilty of "passing the trash."  The parents should not have been lied to. If the culture truly is that this type of behavior is not tolerated then it would not have been tolerated. It's been 6 or 7 years now and I'm not convinced things are getting better. 

 

Every such situation needs to be dealt with thoroughly and completely and efforts need to be made to ensure such things never happen again. I think what we have is a situation where individuals aren't perfect and they do bad things and then some leaders in the church (and we have a church where the distinction between "leaders" and "members" is blurry) don't know how to then handle things properly. It may be a matter of educating educating educating until everyone fully gets it. "This is not tolerated. Do not do it. It should never happen. If it does happen these solid measures will be taken." And so on. There should never ever be any tolerance or protecting the predator. I think a related problem is that there are people in the church who go through the motions of church activity publicly who may have never fully internalized the principles of the gospel so that they actually become guiding principles in their lives. And I think you can even get bishops and others who are more like the former and they don't handle these types of situations as they should and then their actions get taken by others as being representative of the entire Church.

Edited April 6, 2018 by CMZ

[mtomm]

53 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Every such situation needs to be dealt with thoroughly and completely and efforts need to be made to ensure such things never happen again. I think what we have is a situation where individuals aren't perfect and they do bad things and then some leaders in the church (and we have a church where the distinction between "leaders" and "members" is blurry) don't know how to then handle things properly. It may be a matter of educating educating educating until everyone fully gets it. "This is not tolerated. Do not do it. It should never happen. If it does happen these solid measures will be taken." And so on. There should never ever be any tolerance or protecting the predator. I think a related problem is that there are people in the church who go through the motions of church activity publicly who may have never fully internalized the principles of the gospel so that they actually become guiding principles in their lives. And I think you can even get bishops and others who are more like the former and they don't handle these types of situations as they should and then their actions get taken by others as being representative of the entire Church.

Yes. Policy and culture change are needed. 

[rongo]

32 minutes ago, mtomm said:

Yes. Policy and culture change are needed. 

The frustrating thing is that there are still going to be situations where

a) there is a confession from the perpetrator (or multiple confessions)

b) law enforcement and the legal system will refuse to prosecute

c) for a variety of reasons, church discipline is not as harsh as people want it to be

We had a case like that in my stake, where the perp was a member of my ward prior to me being a bishop, the victims were little children (babysitting), there are multiple confessions to his bishop and the victims' parents, there are numerous texts to victim parents apologizing and giving details, there are forensic interviews with the children, and there is a detailed, lengthy confession recording. It has been frustrating to all involved that law enforcement and the county prosecutor will not press charges or prosecute (which outside attorneys have confirmed is not uncommon in cases like this).  

All we have been able to do is to annotate his membership record. His current stake (out of the state) said they would pursue a disciplinary council, using letters and the recording (we wanted to hold it here, because all of the witnesses are here). But all we can do is follow up to see that that took place. The man has no criminal record, and we all feel that he is at high risk to repeat, given the number of victims and the nature of what he did. It is extremely frustrating that it is secular legal and law enforcement that is unwilling to pursue this. In my amateur mind, I would be willing to go to a jury with recorded confession, multiple confessions in writing, and multiple adult witnesses whom the accused confessed to --- even though the young victims themselves don't offer testimony. 

And, I can easily see people still being upset with Church policy and culture even if and when the accused are excommunicated and annotated. They will still blame the Church when things like this happen, even if the Church did everything it reasonably could to prevent it, and even if the Church enacts everything that advocates want it to now.

Does anyone disagree that Church critics will still blame this on the Church?

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by rongo

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, mtomm said:

Yes. Policy and culture change are needed. 

I believe this as well. Utah has an extremely high rate of sexual abuse for a reason. 

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I believe this as well. Utah has an extremely high rate of sexual abuse for a reason. 

There is some sort of sexual frustration out there that is governing some undisciplined minds..the culture is perfection..shame..and often with terrible results.  There is a wide gulf between seeking perfection and always feeling shame..there needs to be a middle ground.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Jeanne

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

There is some sort of sexual frustration out there that is governing some undisciplined minds..the culture is perfection..shame..and often with terrible results.  There is a wide gulf between seeking perfection and always feeling shame..there needs to be a middle ground.

So true Jeanne. There is something strange going on. I'm no pyschologist but I think the shame and huge emphasis by the church about all things sexual, can have the opposite affect.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

The frustrating thing is that there are still going to be situations where

a) there is a confession from the perpetrator (or multiple confessions)

b) law enforcement and the legal system will refuse to prosecute

c) for a variety of reasons, church discipline is not as harsh as people want it to be

We had a case like that in my stake, where the perp was a member of my ward prior to me being a bishop, the victims were little children (babysitting), there are multiple confessions to his bishop and the victims' parents, there are numerous texts to victim parents apologizing and giving details, there are forensic interviews with the children, and there is a detailed, lengthy confession recording. It has been frustrating to all involved that law enforcement and the county prosecutor will not press charges or prosecute (which outside attorneys have confirmed is not uncommon in cases like this).  

I have come across a similar case recently.
A 78 year old man is being accused by a 35 year old woman of "inappropriate touching" when she was 4.
Apparently he gave her piggy back rides and she feels that he "felt her up" by touching her bottom and it had troubled her for years.

He has said that "he supposes he probably did touch her bottom" innocently while giving piggy back rides.
She took this to the police who declined to press charges, and now she wants him released from his position by the Church and has labelled him a molester and that he "confessed".

As you might imagine, there are definitely sides being taken in this one.

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Avatar4321]

At what point does forgiveness come into any of this?

[JLHPROF]

38 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

At what point does forgiveness come into any of this?

Abuse/Molestation has become an unforgivable sin in today's society.
Whereas the sins listed by God as unforgivable are questioned as to whether they really are unforgivable.

 

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, mtomm said:

Yes. Policy and culture change are needed. 

I think quite a bit of people in the Church already have the right idea. The problem is getting it into the heads (and hearts) of everyone... when we are always going to be dealing with imperfect people.

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, Jeanne said:

There is some sort of sexual frustration out there that is governing some undisciplined minds..the culture is perfection..shame..and often with terrible results.  There is a wide gulf between seeking perfection and always feeling shame..there needs to be a middle ground.

And there are many people in the Church that get it right. Every member is prone at some point to taking some virtue to unwarranted extremes. This becomes less of a problem as an individual genuinely grows in the things of the Spirit. As they do so they begin to see things in just the right way. So, in this case they won't see sex as something to be engaged in willy nilly without regard to its consequences but nor will they go to the other extreme and see every sexual expression as inherently and infinitely shameful.