Who heard the disruption?

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I believe this as well. Utah has an extremely high rate of sexual abuse for a reason. 

Strangely, I have never come across anything in any Church writings saying sexual abuse is something one should do, but I have seen plenty to the contrary. So I would see people who engage in sexual abuse as going against the teachings of the Church. Instances of sexual abuse not getting properly addressed by some leader or other in the Church is not a good thing, but it's not exactly equivalent to the Church saying people should engage in it.

[provoman]

information in another thread

Edited January 13, 2020 by provoman

[Scott Lloyd]

On 3/31/2018 at 10:01 PM, pogi said:

This link actually interviews the woman who was yelling.  Her name is Crystal Legionaires.  Not only does she sound like a man, but she also looks like a man with long hair who dresses like a woman.  My guess is that she is a transgender  

Not that that has anything to do with anything, other then to explain why I thought it was a man screaming.

http://fox13now.com/2018/03/31/woman-behind-act-of-protest-at-lds-general-conference-discusses-decision-to-speak-up/

That could account for her/his insistence on they/them pronouns.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/1/2018 at 8:44 AM, Duncan said:

I've wondered when they say you should meet with your stake president, that assumes they have one, I mean it's not easy but not impossible for a non member or former member or whatever to get tickets

I think the idea is that only members of the Church may appropriately vote during a sustaining.

Edited to add: Never mind. I see I expressed the same response back when this was a new thread.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/1/2018 at 2:13 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

The stake or district president has stewardship over everyone in the stake or district boundaries, whatever his or her current status in the Church of Jesus Christ, member, non-member, or former member.

But that doesn't mean a non-member is entitled to vote during a common-consent procedure in the Church. I think you need to hold Church membership to do that.

Edited to add: Arrgh! I keep making responses that repeat what I said back in April 2018 when this was a new thread.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/2/2018 at 3:55 PM, bluebell said:

Is spontaneous praise always inappropriate?

 

On 4/2/2018 at 4:14 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't know. I don't think I've ever heard it at an LDS service.

Didn't one of the conference speakers address that this time? He took a friend to church. The friend said the service was not as "lively" as he was used to. The man who took him responded by asking him how he would behave if the Savior were to come to the meeting. The friend replied that he would go to his knees in humility.

Am I mis-remembering this? I don't have the time or wherewithal to readily look it up just now.

 

On 4/2/2018 at 4:55 PM, bluebell said:

It  happened yesterday in General Conference.  The prophet did not seem at all bothered by it.  Besides that spontaneous celebration does not have to equal 'living services.'  It's weird to think that celebrations are only allowed in sacred places or circumstances if they have been directed beforehand.

 

On 4/2/2018 at 5:00 PM, rongo said:

I thought the audience reaction to the temples was cool! It was genuine.

 

On 4/2/2018 at 5:05 PM, bluebell said:

I did too.  

 

On 4/2/2018 at 5:27 PM, provoman said:

Call me old fashioned or whatever, 

But I found the reaction frm the congregation uncouth and a lack of decorum.; I was disappointed with the reactions.

 

What a difference a couple of years makes! Since we had that exchange back in 2018, there has been more than one occasion in general conference when the prophet has asked that the congregation remain quiet and reverent and not cry out when new temples were announced.

 

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

 

 

 

 

What a difference a couple of years makes! Since we had that exchange back in 2018, there has been more than one occasion in general conference when the prophet has asked that the congregation remain quiet and reverent and not cry out when new temples were announced.

 

I still don't think he thought the initial sincere exclamation was inappropriate.  I don't think the following whooping (that the prophet spoke out against) was of the same type-those seemed planned.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I still don't think he thought the initial sincere exclamation was inappropriate.  I don't think the following whooping (that the prophet spoke out against) was of the same type-those seemed planned.

Either it’s appropriate to make spontaneous outbursts during a sacred meeting or it isn’t. The initial occurrence took everybody by surprise, and the prophet was kind in not calling it out on the spot, which might have embarrassed some. But evidently he deemed it necessary to give a subsequent reminder of what already had been generally understood previously: that you don’t yell out during the meeting, not even if you’re glad to hear your town is getting a temple. 
 

And there was not any subsequent whooping, planned or not, that I recall. Any that there might have been was pre-empted by the reminder. 
 

The reminder was taken well, as the behavior has not occurred since. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That could account for her/his insistence on they/them pronouns.

Could be.  It also sounds like he/she has multiple personality disorder, which could explain it - which might explain the name "legionaires" as if there is a legion inside him/her - a possible reference to the bible demonic possession story? 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Either it’s appropriate to make spontaneous outbursts during a sacred meeting or it isn’t. The initial occurrence took everybody by surprise, and the prophet was kind in not calling it out on the spot, which might have embarrassed some. But evidently he deemed it necessary to give a subsequent reminder of what already had been generally understood previously: that you don’t yell out during the meeting, not even if you’re glad to hear your town is getting a temple. 
 

And there was not any subsequent whooping, planned or not, that I recall. Any that there might have been was pre-emoted by the reminder. 
 

The reminder was taken well, as the behavior has not occurred since. 

I know we disagree on this, and that's o.k.  My perspective is that  spontaneous outbursts of celebration are appropriate on occasion, but planned ones (such as those that followed in later months) are not.    

And there were other exclamations of excitement at other GCs.  The Layton and Russian temples were announced in April 2018 and with them we get our first excited noises.  The next time Pres. Nelson announced temples, during the October 2018 conference, we got more exclamations.  The following conference, in April 2019, was the first time that the prophet specifically asked people to celebrate silently.  I'm guessing he saw a trend coming on.

Edited January 14, 2020 by bluebell

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Could be.  It also sounds like he/she has multiple personality disorder, which could explain it - which might explain the name "legionaires" as if there is a legion inside him/her - a possible reference to the bible demonic possession story? 

Very possibly. 

[Peacefully]

I was in the conference center when the twelve temples were announced and the cheering was going on. It was kind of fun and exciting to be part of that but I could see where it could get out of hand. Probably a wise thing for the Prophet to nip it in the bud.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I know we disagree on this, and that's o.k.  My perspective is that  spontaneous outbursts of celebration are appropriate on occasion, but planned ones (such as those that followed in later months) are not.    

And there were other exclamations of excitement at other GCs.  The Layton and Russian temples were announced in April 2018 and with them we get our first excited noises.  The next time Pres. Nelson announced temples, during the October 2018 conference, we got more exclamations.  The following conference, in April 2019, was the first time that the prophet specifically asked people to celebrate silently.  I'm guessing he saw a trend coming on.

How could any of them have been planned when, presumably, the announcement in general conference is the first public disclosure that a temple will be built in this or that locale? 
 

I think we have seen a demonstration of crowd psychology at work: The spontaneous outburst happens the first time, seemingly with no repercussions, and people get the idea it is OK to do it the next time, and the next, and so on. For the sake of reverence there need to be certain standards of decorum maintained, lest the conference sessions grow as boisterous as British Parliament. I think the prophet knows that, and that’s why he put a stop to the outbursts. 
 

People sense the need for decorum, as evidenced by the fact that, prior to 2018, the outbursts during temple announcements were unheard of — at least in my recollection. What President Nelson has done is to get us back to the prior expectation. 

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How could any of them have been planned when, presumably, the announcement in general conference is the first public disclosure that a temple will be built in this or that locale? 
 

What temples are going to be announced isn't known.  That temples are likely to be announced is.  Especially for those in attendance from Utah, it doesn't take much planning to be ready in case an area you care about is announced.  I think in the last ten years 11 temples have been announced or constructed in the state.

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that anyone went into GC with a set plan for celebrating a temple announcement.  I'm saying that with the first instance for Layton and Russia that received a smile from the prophet, that seemed to open the doors for others to follow suit.  That's the kind of "planning" I'm talking about.  Planning as in 'this has been done twice now so I'll respond in kind if I get the chance." 

I think it was good that Pres. Nelson asked us to refrain; I can see how such a thing could quickly get too rambunctious if left unchecked and became commonplace.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

What temples are going to be announced isn't known.  That temples are likely to be announced is.  Especially for those in attendance from Utah, it doesn't take much planning to be ready in case an area you care about is announced.  I think in the last ten years 11 temples have been announced or constructed in the state.

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that anyone went into GC with a set plan for celebrating a temple announcement.  I'm saying that with the first instance for Layton and Russia that received a smile from the prophet, that seemed to open the doors for others to follow suit.  That's the kind of "planning" I'm talking about.  Planning as in 'this has been done twice now so I'll respond in kind if I get the chance." 

I think it was good that Pres. Nelson asked us to refrain; I can see how such a thing could quickly get too rambunctious if left unchecked and became commonplace.  

What you are calling “planning” I’ve called crowd psychology. 
 

That we should not read too much into President Nelson’s smile in the first instance is evidenced by the fact that he later asked us not to do it again. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What you are calling “planning” I’ve called crowd psychology. 
 

Ok.

Quote

That we should not read too much into President Nelson’s smile in the first instance is evidenced by the fact that he later asked us not to do it again. 

I don't think so.  My kids can do something spontaneously that I don't think is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I won't stop it if they keep doing it or if it gets out of hand.  

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Ok.

I don't think so.  My kids can do something spontaneously that I don't think is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I won't stop it if they keep doing it or if it gets out of hand.  

We were discouraged from doing it at all, not just asked to keep it in check or from getting out of hand. 
 

It has to do with time, place and manner.  Cheering and yelling are OK, just not in that setting. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

We were discouraged from doing it at all, not just asked to keep it in check or from getting out of hand. 
 

Yep, I realize that.  Notice I said "My kids can do something spontaneously that I don't think is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I won't stop it if they keep doing it or if it gets out of hand."

[JAHS]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What a difference a couple of years makes! Since we had that exchange back in 2018, there has been more than one occasion in general conference when the prophet has asked that the congregation remain quiet and reverent and not cry out when new temples were announced.

 

But of course it is OK to cry out loud when doing the Hosanna Shout inside the Temple when it is dedicated.  I have been to some and the members just can't seem to get in to it loud enough like it was meant to be done. 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What a difference a couple of years makes! Since we had that exchange back in 2018, there has been more than one occasion in general conference when the prophet has asked that the congregation remain quiet and reverent and not cry out when new temples were announced.

 

But of course it is OK to cry out loud when doing the Hosanna Shout inside the Temple when it is dedicated.  I have been to some and the members just can't seem to get in to it loud enough like it was meant to be done. 

Maybe when members hear of a temple announced in conference they could all shout out,   "Hosanna!"  If it were to become a traditional thing to do it would not be disruptive.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yep, I realize that.  Notice I said "My kids can do something spontaneously that I don't think is wrong, but that doesn't mean that I won't stop it if they keep doing it or if it gets out of hand."

Got it. 
 

It’s not self-evident this is President Nelson’s attitude toward spontaneous outbursts mid-session at general conference. The obvious thing is he doesn’t want them happening <at all>. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

But of course it is OK to cry out loud when doing the Hosanna Shout inside the Temple when it is dedicated.  I have been to some and the members just can't seem to get in to it loud enough like it was meant to be done. 

Yeah, that bugs me too. 
 

One source says the Hosannah Shout is to be “whole-souled.” That’s not quite what I’ve experienced. 
 

At one such dedication, a woman turned and stared at me when I joined in singing “the Hosannah Anthem.”  Evidently, it was her first temple dedication. 

[JAHS]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, that bugs me too. 
 

One source says the Hosannah Shout is to be “whole-souled.” That’s not quite what I’ve experienced. 
 

At one such dedication, a woman turned and stared at me when I joined in singing “the Hosannah Anthem.”  Evidently, it was her first temple dedication. 

I am thinking it is mostly a cultural thing of the times in the early church when members came from different faith backgrounds and were used to shouting out and praising God loudly etc. in church.
Our general membership personality and behavior is just not the same as it was back then.  

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, JAHS said:

I am thinking it is mostly a cultural thing of the times in the early church when members came from different faith backgrounds and were used to shouting out and praising God loudly etc. in church.
Our general membership personality and behavior is just not the same as it was back then.  

I think it’s more Old Testament based. 
 

Also, it’s a demonstration of unity. It makes us one with God’s covenant people in ancient times. If we let that understanding settle upon our soul, it can be a very meaningful ritual. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s not self-evident this is President Nelson’s attitude toward spontaneous outbursts mid-session at general conference. The obvious thing is he doesn’t want them happening <at all>. 

You're assumption about Pres. Nelson's attitude is not self evident either.  The obvious thing is that he doesn't want them happening <any more>.