MormonLeaks: Former Mormon Mission President Admitting to Inappropriate Interactions with Women

[sunstoned]

This has just been released and is generating a lot of discussion.  The accused is a former MTC mission president and author of two books carried by Desert Book.  However, today Deseret Book has pulled his books from circulation.  

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2018/03/19/mormonleaks-releases-of-former-mormon-mission-president-admitting-inappropriate-interactions/

 

 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

This has just been released and is generating a lot of discussion.  The accused is a former MTC mission president and author of two books carried by Desert Book.  However, today Deseret Book has pulled his books from circulation.  

https://mormonleaks.io/newsroom/2018/03/19/mormonleaks-releases-of-former-mormon-mission-president-admitting-inappropriate-interactions/

 

 

Tacenda posted this on the Buzzfeed thread already, quite a bit of discussion there.

[rpn]

I know from my own experiences that God can use people who aren't living the way they ought to live for good.   But it defies understanding how He could putting such a flawed man into such a vulnerable position, with great capacity to harm, and after he'd actually harmed multiple people.   Was this simply because of his lifelong relationship  with Elder Wells, or Elder Asay, so they couldn't hear the Spirit?     How does the man get all these spiritual experiences when those whom he harmed struggle with maintaining any belief at all?

[drums12]

Reading the transcript just makes me ill.  If it turns out this was known by the 12/FP and swept under the rug I fear I'll have no faith left in Church leadership...none.  If General Authorities such as Elder Asay didn't report this to the twelve they are no better than the people at Penn State who knew for decades what was going on and did nothing.

Edited March 20, 2018 by drums12

[cinepro]

For those who haven't read the transcript or listened to the audio, a woman who was apparently abused as a child went into the MTC in the early 1980s when the interviewee, Joseph L. Bishop was the MTC President.  While there, she counseled with him and described the abuse she was subject to.  At some point, he takes her into a small room where there is a bed and a TV and VCR and attempts to rape her (but isn't physically able to do the deed).

During the interview, Bishop acknowledges that he has done things in the past, but can't remember this event specifically.  There is an event where a woman at the MTC threatens suicide, and after she gets counseling moves in the JLB and his wife.  At some point she asks him for a "back rub" and things get "frisky." (p.36).  There are other potential situations mentioned, but it's not clear exactly what happened (a woman modeled a swimsuit for him? (p.42)).  He repeatedly refers to his "addiction",  but never makes clear what he did or how frequently he did it. 

It's also not clear who in the Church knew what was going on.  The interviewer reported it to Church authorities, but was never able to find out if anything happened, and JLB can't recall them ever mentioning it to him. So this would be a pretty huge lapse in responsibility for Church leadership.  Carlos Asay, a seventy, is mentioned as being one of the people who would have known.

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by cinepro

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

I know from my own experiences that God can use people who aren't living the way they ought to live for good.   But it defies understanding how He could putting such a flawed man into such a vulnerable position, with great capacity to harm, and after he'd actually harmed multiple people.   Was this simply because of his lifelong relationship  with Elder Wells, or Elder Asay, so they couldn't hear the Spirit?     How does the man get all these spiritual experiences when those whom he harmed struggle with maintaining any belief at all?

It is simple. God is not involved at all. Men are. The men extending the calls have no special line to God. We just want to believe they do.  But they don't.  This should help you to really challenge the idea that some God is directing this.  It is a hard thing to do. 

[Teancum]

48 minutes ago, drums12 said:

Reading the transcript just makes me ill.  If it turns out this was known by the 12/FP and swept under the rug I fear I'll have no faith left in Church leadership...none.  The Spirit of discernment is apparently a myth.  If General Authorities such as Elder Asay didn't report this to the twelve they are no better than the people at Penn State who knew for decades what was going on and did nothing.

As I said to RPN:

It is simple. God is not involved at all. Men are. The men extending the calls have no special line to God. We just want to believe they do.  But they don't.  This should help you to really challenge the idea that some God is directing this.  It is a hard thing to do. 

[jkwilliams]

Apparently this happened while I was in the MTC. Sickening. 

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Teancum said:

As I said to RPN:

It is simple. God is not involved at all. Men are. The men extending the calls have no special line to God. We just want to believe they do.  But they don't.  This should help you to really challenge the idea that some God is directing this.  It is a hard thing to do. 

In some way it’s hard, but in others it’s the easier option. 

[JAHS]

It's happened before and will happen again. Doesn't make it right, but it is a fact that we have to live with in this world of imperfect people.
God doesn't take over a man's brain and force him be perfect and without sin. He does still inspire most church leaders to help lead us in the right way.
Their own personal sins are something they have to work on, like we all do. 

 

[Maestrophil]

3 hours ago, cinepro said:

For those who haven't read the transcript or listened to the audio, a woman who was apparently abused as a child went into the MTC in the early 1980s when the interviewee, Joseph L. Bishop was the MTC President.  While there, she counseled with him and described the abuse she was subject to.  At some point, he takes her into a small room where there is a bed and a TV and VCR and attempts to rape her (but isn't physically able to do the deed).

During the interview, Bishop acknowledges that he has done things in the past, but can't remember this event specifically.  There is an event where a woman at the MTC threatens suicide, and after she gets counseling moves in the JLB and his wife.  At some point she asks him for a "back rub" and things get "frisky." (p.36).  There are other potential situations mentioned, but it's not clear exactly what happened (a woman modeled a swimsuit for him? (p.42)).  He repeatedly refers to his "addiction",  but never makes clear what he did or how frequently he did it. 

It's also not clear who in the Church knew what was going on.  The interviewer reported it to Church authorities, but was never able to find out if anything happened, and JLB can't recall them ever mentioning it to him. So this would be a pretty huge lapse in responsibility for Church leadership.  Carlos Asay, a seventy, is mentioned as being one of the people who would have known.

 

I do hope LDS leadership takes a good look into this and is not afraid to mete out discipline where it is needed.  

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

It's happened before and will happen again. Doesn't make it right, but it is a fact that we have to live with in this world of imperfect people.
God doesn't take over a man's brain and force him be perfect and without sin. He does still inspire most church leaders to help lead us in the right way.
Their own personal sins are something they have to work on, like we all do. 

 

the thing is when this happens again and again and agian, you lose trust and confidence in leaders and  you adopt a "you do you and i'll do me" approach, i'll listen to what you have to say but i'll make up my own mind and i'll follow the spirit and if church leaders get bent out of shape about it then let them

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Apparently this happened while I was in the MTC. Sickening. 

Amen, sickening on so many levels. These Young Women, are there in the service of God, and his Church. They should feel as safe there, just in there rooms at home. It would have been a sad day, if my daughter had called and told me this happened. No one could ever know how difficult his actions made her mission, and any other girl, how devastating these young soul who must endure this burden, along with the high's and low's of serving a full time mission. There are some places that even bad men will act civivlized, but for someone to do this to a "child", is to burden her for life. This is made clear by her efforts, so many years after. Although a very busy place, I am told the Spirit is strong in this place, even like unto a Temple in many way. If bad men can act more reverent in such places, this man is lower than a bad man. 

I think the scripture would apply here, "Woe unto any who would harm a child, for it would have been better that he had never been born, it would be better that had a millstone put round his neck and be cast into the sea". Doing this from memories, but I think this is somewhere between Matthew 5-7. 

[drums12]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

the thing is when this happens again and again and agian, you lose trust and confidence in leaders and  you adopt a "you do you and i'll do me" approach, i'll listen to what you have to say but i'll make up my own mind and i'll follow the spirit and if church leaders get bent out of shape about it then let them

Herein lies the crux of the matter, as far as I'm concerned.  Church culture,and in many cases correlated teachings, put leaders on pedestals...they are almost "wholly other."  If someone is a MP, SP, GA, etc etc he must be much more righteous than the average joe.  I don't think it was this way in the early days.  Early brethren weren't just "yes" men.   The mentality now is, in my opinion, and to my perception, that the Brethren are to be "sustained" no matter what.  

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

As I said to RPN:

It is simple. God is not involved at all. Men are. The men extending the calls have no special line to God. We just want to believe they do.  But they don't.  This should help you to really challenge the idea that some God is directing this.  It is a hard thing to do. 

I think you are jumping the gun here, I would guess that each day see thousands of interactions happen daily within the Church. Millions and millions each week. It is sad that this happened, but most Church Leaders are chosen every years, and billions of interactions, does not mean they are all like this man. He [God] does direct the affairs of the Church, through inspiration, but with the size of the Church bad apples get missed. These are not the Nauvoo days, where everyone knew everyone. Making the mistake with a few, does not mean that discernment is not a gift they have, use and enjoy, sometimes the imperfect man, can and does at times, use their own minds and methods. Mission Presidents be bad, is the exception to the rule, choosing the right men through revelation and discernment, is the norm. 

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, drums12 said:

Herein lies the crux of the matter, as far as I'm concerned.  Church culture,and in many cases correlated teachings, put leaders on pedestals...they are almost "wholly other."  If someone is a MP, SP, GA, etc etc he must be much more righteous than the average joe.  I don't think it was this way in the early days.  Early brethren weren't just "yes" men.   The mentality now is, in my opinion, and to my perception, that the Brethren are to be "sustained" no matter what.  

in the other ward there is a Bishop who thinks Naziism should be given the benefit of the doubt, he baits people online and argues all kind of nonsense, and I just like you are asking for problems by calling that guy and frankly when they know about stuff going on they deserve everything they get. My bro went to a bishopric training mtg on tues and that guy was saying that attendance is down and i'm like ya think? all of the stake presidency in online don't they read anything he writes? 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

the thing is when this happens again and again and agian, you lose trust and confidence in leaders and  you adopt a "you do you and i'll do me" approach, i'll listen to what you have to say but i'll make up my own mind and i'll follow the spirit and if church leaders get bent out of shape about it then let them

You seem a bit confused, Duncan. What you say about following the Spirit and making up your own mind is not at all opposed to Mormon doctrine.  In fact, it is praiseworthy.  What has led you to think otherwise?  Blind obedience and disregard for one's conscience is the most significant problem and deviance.  That is all quite aside from questions about this long ago series of events.  Do we really have any hard evidence for it?

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

My bro went to a bishopric training mtg on tues and that guy was saying that attendance is down and i'm like ya think? all of the stake presidency in online don't they read anything he writes? 

Has anyone actually spoken to the stake presidency? I would. And I certainly wouldn't assume that they've read what he's written. I've also raised concerns with the area presidency, which were then addressed in the very next training we had. We're under obligation, in my opinion, to make sure our leaders are informed -- something I've always been taught.

[Robert F. Smith]

30 Ways To Love Your Mission By Joseph L. Bishop

Details

ID100066

To be a great missionary requires preparation, and with so much to learn, it can be overwhelming — that is, until now! 30 Ways to Love Your Mission is your handy guidebook of field-tested methods for navigating the path of missionary life. These pages are filled with simple suggestions, true stories, and inspiring scriptural references divided into three main topics:

• Track positives, ignore negatives
• Improve your work
• Receive inspiration and revelation

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I think you are jumping the gun here, I would guess that each day see thousands of interactions happen daily within the Church. Millions and millions each week. It is sad that this happened, but most Church Leaders are chosen every years, and billions of interactions, does not mean they are all like this man. He [God] does direct the affairs of the Church, through inspiration, but with the size of the Church bad apples get missed. These are not the Nauvoo days, where everyone knew everyone. Making the mistake with a few, does not mean that discernment is not a gift they have, use and enjoy, sometimes the imperfect man, can and does at times, use their own minds and methods. Mission Presidents be bad, is the exception to the rule, choosing the right men through revelation and discernment, is the norm. 

Sorry, Bill, but those claims just won't wash.  Humans are always deeply flawed, and we must do two things:  Trust and Verify.  You have forgotten the second requirement.  Jesus did not say to be as gentle as doves.  He said be as gentle as doves and as wise as serpents.  It takes both.  God gave us brains and free agency for a reason, and we need to exercise same.  Blind obedience is for children.

[Calm]

Your point, Robert? (About the article or book by Brother Bishop)

Edited March 20, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, drums12 said:

Herein lies the crux of the matter, as far as I'm concerned.  Church culture,and in many cases correlated teachings, put leaders on pedestals...they are almost "wholly other."  If someone is a MP, SP, GA, etc etc he must be much more righteous than the average joe.  I don't think it was this way in the early days.  Early brethren weren't just "yes" men.   The mentality now is, in my opinion, and to my perception, that the Brethren are to be "sustained" no matter what.  

Hogwash, Adam.  The notion that the Brethren are to be "sustained" no matter what seems pretty ignorant to me.  I don't mind giving the benefit of the doubt to someone I don't actually know, but the idea that everyone is automatically O.K. in every respect is just silly.  In scouting we now have a tight vetting process and strict rules to prevent molestation.  It wouldn't hurt to have some sort of "internal affairs" unit throughout the Church to investigate rumors and run simple background checks.  Even in law enforcement, with all the backgrounding they do, some bad actors still get sworn in and create real problems.  The LDS Church is not going to be any different.  We should put aside our childish notions that everything will always be hunky dory in the Church. It isn't, and it never was.  It is a human  organization.

Brigham Young said:

Quote

What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.  JD, 9:150 (Jan 12, 1862).

 

[Robert F. Smith]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Your point, Robert? (About the article or book by Brother Bishop)

I haven't read the book, but one of his three main points struck me as relevant:  "Track positives, ignore negatives"

I hope that isn't how he thought of his own deviant behavior, but perhaps that was precisely his problem.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I haven't read the book, but one of his three main points struck me as relevant:  "Track positives, ignore negatives"

I hope that isn't how he thought of his own deviant behavior, but perhaps that was precisely his problem.

Ah, yeah, that could have definitely been a problem.

I actually have known a few people who have done just that in part of their lives, though I don't know of anyone who has chosen to apply it to everything as everyone is pretty good at spotting the negative in others when that is screwing up their own lives.  While successful in many ways, these negativity ignorers I knew were somewhat childish in accepting certain consequences of their own behaviour, like how getting what they wanted could hurt someone else.

Also, they could be very good at avoiding saying "no" so they could avoid confrontation.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

It appears that this man is a former university president? LINK