Tacenda Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 8 hours ago, cdowis said: I have an absolute and certain knowledge that God is our Father. He has, in His own way, given me a spiritual manifestation of this truth. I was with a group if individuals when the missionaries taught the Plan of Salvation and a voice spoke to me and said simply, "It is true." In that moment I also remembered that I had been taught this, but did not know when or where. I knew nothing of Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon, but I had a certain knowledge that what they were teaching me was true, for God had told me so. I would love to have had a voice tell me something is true. I think some have the gift for this special communication or more receptive to the spirit I guess. Thanks for sharing, I guess I assumed you were born in the covenant, and not a convert.
smac97 Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: Thank you for enlightening answers smac....... The only 100% of my understanding part is your serving people & family..... That's where the rubber hits the road. "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matt. 22:37-39) "When ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God." (Mosiah 2:17) "And now, if you believe all these things see that ye do them." (Mosiah 4:10) And so on. 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: When you write about your experiences pointing to God's direction I don't have to write here that most of us had some strong experiences as well. I understand. We can, at best, only post snapshots of our lives. We each have different experiences. And influences. And choices made, and not made. 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: For example my life story could be a perfect success story for any active LDS..... Still could be. The doors are open should you change your mind. 1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said: And yet here I am looking from outside trying to understand you guys how the heck you can have such strong beliefs with no verifiable, testable claims.... I'm not sure what you mean by "verifiable, testable claims." For me, Pascal's Wager + Moroni's Promise + Obedience (Service / Study / Repentance / Activity in the Church) + Patience and Endurance = Ongoing Confirmations of and Support from the Spirit. "That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day." (D&C 50:24) "For he will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept; and I will try you and prove you herewith." (D&C 98:12) "And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save." (2 Nephi 31:19) Again, we only have snapshots of each others' lives. For me, I will say that the best parts of me are Mormon. The choices I have made which have brought me the most happiness, security, optimism, reassurance, comfort and hope have been those which comport with the teachings of the LDS Church. The choices I most regret have pretty much all been contrary to the teachings of the Church. Thanks, -Smac
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 On 1/30/2018 at 6:20 AM, Atheist Mormon said: I hope you will be comfortable to respond...I'm curious about the degree of your surety that God exists...How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction? It was very hard for me in my believing days even. Any of you believers hod the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? I am called arrogant/presumptuous and some bad adjectives for my stance for self assurance that this is it and willing to bet anything on it. And I think it is very possible, not so distant future might be able to transfer /upload our memories to machines, even then it won't be real us, I'm convinced what makes our consciousness possible is our brain. I know from moment to moment that there is "someone out there" with whom I communicate almost continuously, of that I am certain though certainty is admittedly a psychological state as is every thought we think, and so irrelevant to worrying about. One cannot be mistaken about whether or not one is "thinking". One does not say "Am I thinking right now?" No, one is certain at least that they are thinking! Exactly who it is or how he or she operates is what I have spent a lifetime trying to figure out. I believe that is the challenge of being human, to build our own worlds from matter unorganized, which is oddly in harmony with the LDS conception of "God". Am I "God"? Some philosophers have thought that we make our own gods, and you may be of that opinion. Oddly that would make you LDS BECAUSE you are creating your own world.!! The Intelligence could even be my own unconscious mind making me think it is "out there" but somehow the Intelligence knows things I do not know, and is wiser than I ever am and a continuing source of intelligence springing up within me to help me make decisions and yes, to even heal my body. I find conversing with this Intelligence to be a deep source of wisdom in my life and deeply enriching regardless of whether or not it will continue after I pass. Either it will or it won't. I believe on faith that it will be there after I am gone, but if not I won't know anyway, but it doesn't matter because my life has been so much better for its presence every day. For me it is not about the afterlife, it is about right now and how this belief and perception has enriched my life.
cacheman Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) On 1/30/2018 at 8:20 AM, Atheist Mormon said: I hope you will be comfortable to respond...I'm curious about the degree of your surety that God exists...How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction? It was very hard for me in my believing days even. Any of you believers hod the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? I am called arrogant/presumptuous and some bad adjectives for my stance for self assurance that this is it and willing to bet anything on it. And I think it is very possible, not so distant future might be able to transfer /upload our memories to machines, even then it won't be real us, I'm convinced what makes our consciousness possible is our brain. I have described myself as a hopeful agnostic with pantheistic leanings. In short, I'm not sure that it's possible for me to know if God exists, but I maintain some hope that I can come closer to the truth over time. Up to now, my life experience leads me to believe that there is some truth to pantheistic ideas. I've also been called arrogant or prideful for my beliefs. That's to be expected. I'd imagine most believers and non believers of all stripes have had similar things said about them. Edited January 31, 2018 by cacheman spelling 2
CV75 Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 56 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: I learned something new today, I hadn't heard the term dataism. Thanks for the fun look into something new. I couldn't find where atheism and dataism are necessarily connected though, it seems to me you could be a believer in dataism and also have some concept for God. Maybe you can clarify? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataism Yes, as I was saying in a previous post, God can work / manifest Himself within a dataism mindset just as He can through animism, naturalism, humanism, etc. Posted 15 hours ago An atheist can possess a "dataism" outlook, as can a theist or agnostic. I was pointing out that an atheist brand of dataism allows the assertion that there is an intelligent entity of some kind that created and oversees all creation, and that life continues on after death. Using the OP's memory upload example, networked believers' memories will carry their united belief in God. In a sense, death is an example of such an upload process taking memories from the physical brain and into a new one (that is of a finer, purer material than silicon) with an alternate algorithm, where the new existence plays out according to the plan of salvation.
HiJolly Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 I am very sure God exists, though I don't see much direct support for a 'god' that fits what others (in the Church and outside the Church) say about God. I have experienced something/someone filling the function of what I have come to see as 'God'. I am sure that this is real. This experience includes miraculous interventions in the physical world; new information flooding my mind that I could not possibly 'know'; physical changes to my body that fit perfectly in time and theme with spiritual/religious paradigms; emotional/mental alterations to myself that provide a significant benefit to me without any known mechanism nor delivery vector. So, whatever 'God' is, He/She/It is real in my life. I consider the possibility that there is no afterlife, but I doubt that all the evidences I have observed in my life are meaningless and without weight. So I think there is a strong case that there IS an afterlife. But I'm not certain. I agree that our brains are required for consciousness, though I doubt that's all there is to it. I believe that when the conscious mind separated from the sub-conscious mind, Adam & Eve were thus 'created'. And the big show began. 1
HiJolly Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 Cacheman, I am panentheistic. Kabalah did it to me. ;-) 1
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 37 minutes ago, CV75 said: Yes, as I was saying in a previous post, God can work / manifest Himself within a dataism mindset just as He can through animism, naturalism, humanism, etc. Posted 15 hours ago An atheist can possess a "dataism" outlook, as can a theist or agnostic. I was pointing out that an atheist brand of dataism allows the assertion that there is an intelligent entity of some kind that created and oversees all creation, and that life continues on after death. Using the OP's memory upload example, networked believers' memories will carry their united belief in God. In a sense, death is an example of such an upload process taking memories from the physical brain and into a new one (that is of a finer, purer material than silicon) with an alternate algorithm, where the new existence plays out according to the plan of salvation. Thanks, that helps, I didn't read through the whole thread, so appreciate your clarifying for me. It certainly seems like a core part of human psychology continues to point people towards aligning thoughts with authorities of some kind and even a great and grand source of authority. This reminds me how important it is that we seek to think critically about everything. Skepticism is an important tool to master, and then when we think we've mastered it, we need to be skeptical about that mastery.
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 24 minutes ago, HiJolly said: I am very sure God exists, though I don't see much direct support for a 'god' that fits what others (in the Church and outside the Church) say about God. I have experienced something/someone filling the function of what I have come to see as 'God'. I am sure that this is real. This experience includes miraculous interventions in the physical world; new information flooding my mind that I could not possibly 'know'; physical changes to my body that fit perfectly in time and theme with spiritual/religious paradigms; emotional/mental alterations to myself that provide a significant benefit to me without any known mechanism nor delivery vector. So, whatever 'God' is, He/She/It is real in my life. I consider the possibility that there is no afterlife, but I doubt that all the evidences I have observed in my life are meaningless and without weight. So I think there is a strong case that there IS an afterlife. But I'm not certain. I agree that our brains are required for consciousness, though I doubt that's all there is to it. I believe that when the conscious mind separated from the sub-conscious mind, Adam & Eve were thus 'created'. And the big show began. Right on the money mah Brothah! And good to see you again! Seriously, exactly as I see it as well. 2
cdowis Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I would love to have had a voice tell me something is true. I think some have the gift for this special communication or more receptive to the spirit I guess. Thanks for sharing, I guess I assumed you were born in the covenant, and not a convert. A convert, an active member of the Baptist Church I searched my memory and was very puzzled where I had heard this taught to me before -- I felt I was looking through a fog in my memory. Then I heard that distinctive voice speak to me. Edited January 31, 2018 by cdowis 1
cacheman Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 46 minutes ago, HiJolly said: Cacheman, I am panentheistic. Kabalah did it to me. ;-) Interesting. I have not explored Kabalah. Maybe I will someday. It's been a while since I've seen one of your posts. It's good to see you back.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: I can't be agnostic....because there's no possibility (after63 yrs of my life) a deity will come & make himself present.....It simply ain't gonna happen, ...................................... And you don't see the omniscience you self-declare in saying that, just as the convinced believer in a life beyond this one doesn't doubt his position? At least an agnostic is humble enough to admit that he doesn't know everything. 2
CV75 Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 39 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Thanks, that helps, I didn't read through the whole thread, so appreciate your clarifying for me. It certainly seems like a core part of human psychology continues to point people towards aligning thoughts with authorities of some kind and even a great and grand source of authority. This reminds me how important it is that we seek to think critically about everything. Skepticism is an important tool to master, and then when we think we've mastered it, we need to be skeptical about that mastery. According to dataism, skepticism and faith are the expressions of neurochemical algorithms that include a subroutine that drives the supposition that we have any control over either!
Maestrophil Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 I am 93.569784987463562728985764542534% Sure 2
hope_for_things Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, CV75 said: According to dataism, skepticism and faith are the expressions of neurochemical algorithms that include a subroutine that drives the supposition that we have any control over either! Sounds a lot like the Matrix.
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, CV75 said: Just as the human race made us preeminent through humanism, so can it distill us and everything else to an algorithm (all forms of life are biochemical algorithms, AI is electrical, and all physical things can be defined as some other). We can act as if all existence does is process data (making neuroscience only the tip of the iceberg) and yet we can make a place for God in that paradigm, even as intelligence decouples from consciousness and machines become more intelligent and capable than we are in many things. For example, when we see how the Church is using IT for genealogy and temple work for example, requiring us to essentially interface with an automated data system on a personal, subjective level much as we do with Facebook and this discussion board we become data processors in the work for the dead. To me, this does not change the theology that God is the Man of Holiness, but does show how He relates to His children throughout the “ages of man,” as reflected in Adam’s life in the Garden (Moses 3:19-21, animist -- when he named the animals); in the Fall (Moses 5:6, naturalist -- when he knew nothing except to do stuff); in the Redemption (Moses 5:10-11 and 6:1, humanist -- when he loved his offspring); and in the Dispensation (Moses 6:5, “dataist” -- when he learned to write, keep a book of remembrance and secure the "data connection" – a.k.a. sealing -- with others). Amazing how Joseph Smith revealed how God accommodated and reconciled all these systems—syncretism at its best! I think that is one way I keep the faith. The other way is I am not going to deny what I hold to be true. As a “dataist” do you really hold out that you will be part of no other algorithm after your mortal algorithm peters out? Will the man who knew and remembers you download his memory with you in it? Or will the man who never knew you but inherited or shares your genes send the salient pieces of you into future biochemical algorithms? I’ve been told that agency is an illusion; that my thoughts, feelings, spirituality and choices are part of a chain of physical reactions that began generations ago, and then eons before that. Just like randomness, it is an imagined concept that gives my thoughts, feelings and choices meaning, and that need for meaning is yet another part of that same physical chain, and believing all that (or not) are part of the same chain. Also, that the part of my brain that remembers my ever-fleeting experiences “controls” (control is an illusion; it is only another part of the chain) the narrative for my past, present and future, both in terms of acknowledged fact and interpreted meaning. So what? Sounds to me like a lot like a Heavenly Father with intelligent spirit children (and Joseph Smith allowed a LOT of room for what intelligence is!), a plan of salvation or happiness (an algorithm; can’t we design them also?), and a veil (that which lies beyond the observable universe and the faith of any ilk that theorizes what it is). What a wonderful narrative I’ve constructed for certain unexpected and foreseen experiences alike that I’ve had, so wonderful that I can only perceive them as coming from God! Great post! So is there data that exists without a mind to see it? I hold that all "data" is a human construction of a human mind looking "out" at the universe but what they are really seeing is their own way of seeing the universe looking back at themselves. Our way of "seeing as" humans is inescapable as long as we are human. I wanna see data as whales see it. Never gonna happen without a whale body to go with it and whale culture as the software to back it up. Besides they never sing rock n roll so what good is their data anyway? Edited January 31, 2018 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: Sounds a lot like the Matrix. The only problem with that is that it is impossible for the idea of "The Matrix" to be true because .... wait for it..... if it WERE true we could never get outside the matrix to find out. There is no way to show it to be true or false- it is actually more a religious position than anything. That's what Pragmatism cures. It says since we can't know anyway, the question itself doesn't even matter. Get on with life and don't worry about it or even question it. Even the question of free-will vs determinism is irrelevant to our lives as is any discussion about the nature of "reality" itself, or truth or falsity except within simple terms like "I left my keys on the dresser". Either they are there or not. But "what is truth"? Fergitaboutit. Pragmatism essentially says "Fergitaboutit- nothing here to see or argue about, move along, get on with your life as you see it" 1
Jeanne Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 19 hours ago, Tacenda said: I had no idea you lost your brother too. I'm so sorry for your losses Jeanne, and yes it does help to know there is a God, especially when we lose our loved ones. Thanks Tacenda...it has been a rough year so far...but...life goes on and thank heavens that no one in the family is in pain.
Jeanne Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Maestrophil said: I am 93.569784987463562728985764542534% Sure Is that all??? 1
CV75 Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Great post! So is there data that exists without a mind to see it? I hold that all "data" is a human construction of a human mind looking "out" at the universe but what they are really seeing is their own way of seeing the universe looking back at themselves. Our way of "seeing as" humans is inescapable as long as we are human. I wanna see data as whales see it. Never gonna happen without a whale body to go with it and whale culture as the software to back it up. Besides they never sing rock n roll so what good is their data anyway? Precisely how I see it! Dataism is as much a human construction as any other "-ism." Even a "prism..." 1
RevTestament Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 On 1/30/2018 at 8:33 AM, Tacenda said: Even though my prayers are almost non existant now, since a faith crisis. I still believe He lives, or something higher than myself. But I tend to go nuts when I think how possible it could be that a man created the worlds or atmosphere. It blows my mind right up. But I can't for the life of me see how this happened only out of a big bang theory, or what not, because who or what is behind the big bang theory? BTW, I tired of praying like before because I felt like I was certainly boring Him. So I'd rather speak to him through my mind or out loud throughout the day, where before it was so replicated day in and day out. That is very good Tacenda! I do the same. I talk to God a lot - He doesn't talk back so much...but it becomes a very personal experience with God, rather than thinking of Him as one you can only approach in formal prayer. I know He is there listening. Luke 21:36 36 aWatch ye therefore, and bpray always, cthat ye may be accounted dworthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the eSon of man. 1
CV75 Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, hope_for_things said: Sounds a lot like the Matrix. Maybe you were simply programmed to think that... But I don't think the Matrix was an entertaining exercise in the suspension of disbelief for the purpose of describing how things are... I don't think understanding these various systems of thought describe how things are, only offer a lens through which we can see them. I can see the Lord in any one of them, and Alma 32 works for anyone no matter how they see. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 (edited) 36 minutes ago, CV75 said: Precisely how I see it! Dataism is as much a human construction as any other "-ism." Even a "prism..." Love it! When I came here nobody would have liked these posts.... now I see a clear change! Edited January 31, 2018 by mfbukowski
CV75 Posted January 31, 2018 Posted January 31, 2018 23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Love it! When I came here nobody would have liked these posts.... now I see a clear change! We can only pick our gods/God using the vision that we have. I think the hurdle might be that all the means we've constructed for viewing things are equally valid (more precisely, equally fallen), and the Lord is able to transcend yet accommodate them all. Talk about power, love and grace! The proof of what is best has nothing to do with the kind of perspective but in reflecting that love and showing that grace that we find within our perspective.
Avatar4321 Posted February 1, 2018 Posted February 1, 2018 On 1/30/2018 at 3:35 PM, Atheist Mormon said: Okay I'm here, wheat does he do to convince you? That was my question in the beginning. Far it be from me to equate you to people who hear visions/noises...how do you enable this? His hand is all over my life. His peace and love walk with me. He answers my prayers. He would do the same for you if you let Him.
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