How sure/convinced are you?

[Avatar4321]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I would love to have had a voice tell me something is true.  I think some have the gift for this special communication or more receptive to the spirit I guess. Thanks for sharing, I guess I assumed you were born in the covenant, and not a convert. 

Keep praying, studying the scriptures, following prophets and keeping your covenants and you will hear His voice

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I would love to have had a voice tell me something is true.

I can't think of a single instance where God has told me, in His voice, that something is true. Usually, when God speaks to me, it's to correct, chastise or warn, though once it was to issue a promise. Like you, I sometimes joke that I'm spiritually deficient.

One of my housemates was invited to church by the full-time missionaries. He doesn't quite know why he went, but he felt impressed to, so he did. He hated it; found it dull and uninspiring. Afterwards he walked to a park, rolled a joint, and started reading from the Book of Mormon. In the midst of reading, he says, he clearly heard a voice tell him that what he was reading was true. So he completely changed his lifestyle, served a mission, and remains active to this day. I've never had an experience like this.

My other housemate was 'found' by the Sister missionaries when he was living at the last-known address of a lost member. He politely listened to them but didn't buy any of it, and especially not the Book of Mormon. They kept asking him to pray about it. He didn't see any need to pray about something so obviously false, but he finally capitulated one night whilst he was in bed. As he prayed, he sensed his room getting lighter, so he opened his eyes, thinking someone had opened the door. There were three men, all dressed in white, standing next to his bed. One of them told him to close his eyes, so he did so. He then felt them lay hands on his head and give him his first-ever priesthood blessing (though he didn't know about such blessings at the time). In it, they blessed him with a belief in the Book of Mormon. He has believed ever since, even though getting baptised has alienated him from the rest of his family. I've never been blessed by angels to know that something is true.

One of the men whom I introduced to the missionaries about 3.5 years ago is about to become my third housemate. He had never before prayed, but he agreed to do so at the end of his very first lesson. The Elders instructed him, and the four of us knelt together. The prayer was a simple request to know if what we had shared with him that evening was true. When it was finished, he stayed silent for a few minutes, and then he got a huge grin on his face. I assumed he'd felt something, but he clarified later that in answer to his prayer he had seen a vision, the central point of which was that we were true messengers. He's believed ever since. I know from multiple personal experiences that God communicates through visions, but He's never used that medium to tell me that something is true.

So yeah, I guess we're spiritually deficient.

Except that God does know how to get me there. He uses ways that work best with me. He has repeatedly invited me to take action on things that I think might be from him, and in the process, I've come to know that those things are true. I honestly don't think I could believe something based on being told it, regardless of how the message might be communicated or who the messenger might be. God knows this about me, so He works with my practical nature and helps me gain knowledge through application.

I'm certain that He also knows how to get through to you if you'll let Him. Please don't give up.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Atheist Mormon]

9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

And you don't see the omniscience you self-declare in saying that, just as the convinced believer in a life beyond this one doesn't doubt his position?  At least an agnostic is humble enough to admit that he doesn't know everything.

I think I played humble role long enough Robert.....Now reserve humility & kindness to the people I interact (at least I hope so). My self declared declared defiance comes from long time experience or lack thereof.

[Atheist Mormon]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I know from moment to moment that there is "someone out there" with whom I communicate almost continuously, of that I am certain though certainty is admittedly a psychological state as is every thought we think, and so irrelevant to worrying about.

One cannot be mistaken about whether or not one is "thinking".   One does not say "Am I thinking right now?"   No, one is certain at least that they are thinking!

Exactly who it is or how he or she operates is what I have spent a lifetime trying to figure out.  I believe that is the challenge of being human, to build our own worlds from matter unorganized, which is oddly in harmony with the LDS conception of "God".  Am I "God"? Some philosophers have thought that we make our own gods, and you may be of that opinion.  Oddly that would make you LDS BECAUSE you are creating your own world.!!

The Intelligence could even be my own unconscious mind making me think it is "out there" but somehow the Intelligence knows things I do not know, and is wiser than I ever am and a continuing source of intelligence springing up within me to help me make decisions and yes, to even heal my body. whenand deeply enriching regardless of whether or not it will continue after I pass.  Either it will or it won't. I believe on faith that it will be there after I am gone, but if not I won't know anyway, but it doesn't matter because my life has been so much better for its presence every day.

For me it is not about the afterlife, it is about right now and how this belief and perception has enriched my life.

When you write "I find conversing with this Intelligence to be a deep source of wisdom in my life"  I marvel. the only way I communicate with this intelligence is with my brain which facilitates my senses, using internet, audiobooks, museums, movies theaters, football games.......Never with another supernatural entity.....

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

When you write "I find conversing with this Intelligence to be a deep source of wisdom in my life"  I marvel. the only way I communicate with this intelligence is with my brain which facilitates my senses, using internet, audiobooks, museums, movies theaters, football games.......Never with another supernatural entity.....

As I said there is no way to know if it is "supernatural"- I could be talking to myself, but I never think it is.  It seems purely outside me- like another entity.  And the "conversation" is answers appearing from nowhere in my mind.  I think up the answers but they seem to be not from me.   Just to clarify.  I don't want you to think that this experience of mine is necessarily so different from your personal experience when an answer to a question "occurs" to you in your mind.  I do not want to give the impression that this is special in any way, just perhaps my way of seeing what might be a very ordinary exprience

[Tacenda]

Atheist Mormon have you ever sat down and listened/watched a youtube with people talking of experiencing NDE, or of experiences of Mediums? They are amazing...gives me hope. Here are a couple, but there are so many out there. :

 

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/30/2018 at 7:46 AM, mrmarklin said:

Once one has had a genuine spiritual experience, there can be no doubt about God’s existence. 

That experience is worth striving for. 

They are few and far between for me, but they have made all the difference in my life. As a professional musician, I navigate in very emotional waters. It’s easy to confuse emotion with Spirit. There is a huge gulf between emotional and true spiritual experiences.

[Amulek]

On 1/30/2018 at 8:20 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

I'm curious about the degree of your surety that God exists...

Certain enough that I honestly can not imagine a state of affairs that would cause me to believe differently. And I have a very healthy imagination. 

 

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How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction? It was very hard for me in my believing days even.

There is a portion of Joseph Smith - History where he says, "For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it..."

I think this is part of it. Once you have gained religious knowledge through religious experience, there isn't a way to just un-know it. 

But I think you still have to continue living the gospel in order to maintain your faith. When you do, you will continue to have experiences which will reinforce your conviction.

 

Quote

Any of you believers ho[l]d the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? 

Sure, but I usually don't give it much thought. And even when I do, it's honestly more of a hypothetical, thought experiment kind of thing - somewhere between 'what would it be like if polygamy was re-instituted' and 'how would we deal with baptizing aliens who cannot survive exposure to water.'  

 

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 1/31/2018 at 5:29 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

My question was directed to the Atheist Mormon.  Sorry if that was not clear.

but I am more interested in your answer Robert

On 1/30/2018 at 11:42 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Thus, one might ask:  Why are you not agnostic?

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, Amulek said:

But I think you still have to continue living the gospel in order to maintain your faith. When you do, you will continue to have experiences which will reinforce your conviction.

I find this central. All experience -- not just religious experience -- fades into the fog of memory if it is not continually renewed, eventually disappearing altogether. As one of my former housemates once said, in a moment of enlightenment, the most important spiritual experience is always the one that happened last night or this morning or maybe earlier this week.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 1/31/2018 at 3:11 PM, hope_for_things said:

Why is that sad?  I think these same atheists might believe it is sad that you claim to know there is a God.

Why? There is no reason doubt in the existence of God. The atheists can't prove God doesn't exists.

Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[3DOP]

On 1/30/2018 at 6:20 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

I hope you will be comfortable to respond...I'm curious about the degree of your surety that God exists...How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction? It was very hard for me in my believing days even. Any of you believers hod the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? 

I am called arrogant/presumptuous and some bad adjectives for my stance for self assurance that this is it and willing to bet anything on it. And I think it is very possible, not so distant future might be able to transfer /upload our memories to machines, even then it won't be real us, I'm convinced what makes our consciousness possible is our brain. 

 

I would have a quibble with your question about "maintain(ing) faith week after week with the conviction"..."that God exists"? I need faith to believe in the Catholic religion. I do not need religion to believe in God. You might be familiar with the philosopher, Antony Flew, who a few years ago declared himself a theist, apparently without having any kind of religious belief or religious insights. I think it is important therefore that we make a distinction between belief in God and any religious faith that the theist may or may not have.

Think about it, every religion has appeared in history. What I mean is that every religion presupposes that there was a time before which, the believer in God could not have embraced any true faith. I suggest that this implies that the believer in God, with no religion at the present, might recognize that religion (doctrines, worship, intercession, hierarchical structures) is for reasons beyond theistic insight, currently unrevealed. One does not have to embrace a particular religion that is presently manifested to believe in God. That is why I quibble with your use of the word "faith". It would seem to imply that only with faith can one become and remain a theist.

My apologies if I have misunderstood.

3DOP

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by 3DOP

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Why? There is no reason doubt in the existence of God. The atheists can't prove God doesn't exists.

And you cannot prove that He does exist.  Sounds like a stalemate to me.  Why are you not an agnostic, Sam?

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

And you cannot prove that He does exist.  Sounds like a stalemate to me.  Why are you not an agnostic, Sam?

because there is no reason to doubt the existence of God. Why are you not an agnostic Robert?

How do you know we can't prove he does exists? 

[Robert F. Smith]

20 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Atheist Mormon have you ever sat down and listened/watched a youtube with people talking of experiencing NDE, or of experiences of Mediums? They are amazing...gives me hope. Here are a couple, but there are so many out there...............................

One of the nice things about these mediums, and about the NDEs (whether phony or real), is that we so frequently hear of family members there to greet us, and sometimes even the beloved family dog.  Does that fit in with your personal religion, Tacenda?  Does it even matter?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

because there is no reason to doubt the existence of God. ..........................

How do you know we can't prove he does exists? 

Correct me, if I'm wrong, Sam. but I am unaware of anyone ever having proven the existence of God.  "Proof," as I have instructed you in the past, is not something that we or scientists can do.  We may make strong or weak arguments for a claim, and we may even be able to replicate a lab experiment that someone else has claimed, but "proof" of the existence of God has never been demonstrated.  If I am incorrect, perhaps you would be so kind as to provide the "proof."  Or describe to me how such "proof" can be demonstrated.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Correct me, if I'm wrong, Sam. but I am unaware of anyone ever having proven the existence of God. 

I am now more interested in your question: Why are you not agnostic?

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 We may make strong or weak arguments for a claim, and we may even be able to replicate a lab experiment that someone else has claimed, but "proof" of the existence of God has never been demonstrated.  If I am incorrect, perhaps you would be so kind as to provide the "proof."  Or describe to me how such "proof" can be demonstrated.

What do you mean by "proof"? Do you mean in the sense that we really can't prove anything? Yes Robert we can prove a lot of things, but let's please not talk about some philosophical or mathematical proof.

[Robert F. Smith]

33 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

..........................

What do you mean by "proof"? Do you mean in the sense that we really can't prove anything? Yes Robert we can prove a lot of things, but let's please not talk about some philosophical or mathematical proof.

You have in the past dealt fast and loose with the notion of "proof," and you are doing the same here.  If you have "proof" of the existence of God, please provide it, or at least tell us how it might be obtained.  If not, then just fess up, Sam.  

[SamuelTheLamanite]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You have in the past dealt fast and loose with the notion of "proof," and you are doing the same here.  If you have "proof" of the existence of God, please provide it, or at least tell us how it might be obtained.  If not, then just fess up, Sam.  

My proof? Look at the stars. Look at the trees. Look at our planet. Can a watch exists without a watchmaker?

But anyway, I am more interested in your own question. In fact forget everything I just said and let's just focus on your question. Robert, I believe in you. I know you have an answer.

Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Robert F. Smith]

12 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

My proof? Look at the stars. Look at the trees. Look at our planet. Can a watch exists without a watchmaker?

.......................................

Even Holy Writ sometimes argues that nature indicates the existence of God (both Bible and Book of Mormon do so), but that is mere inference, not proof.  The argument from design is far more sophisticated, and I encourage you to pursue that angle so that you actually understand what it means to argue that the exceptional nature of Earth and our solar system suggest that it can only have been designed by a great sentient being or beings.

The only problem with that is that even atheists have proposed such an explanation -- fully in keeping with their belief that it is quite likely that very advanced beings exist in this galaxy, beings whom we would see as "godlike" in their technical capability (creating life, terraforming planets, etc.).

[SamuelTheLamanite]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Even Holy Writ sometimes argues that nature indicates the existence of God (both Bible and Book of Mormon do so), but that is mere inference, not proof.  The argument from design is far more sophisticated, and I encourage you to pursue that angle so that you actually understand what it means to argue that the exceptional nature of Earth and our solar system suggest that it can only have been designed by a great sentient being or beings.

Okay Robert. Next time please tell me that you don't feel like answering. I will respect your decision.

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 very advanced beings exist in this galaxy, beings whom we would see as "godlike" in their technical capability (creating life, terraforming planets, etc.).

The problem with the idea is that it requires big numbers. It's true with enough planets you could get godlike civilizations, but you end up with more planets without godlike civilizations. In other words, if there is one god-like civilization in every 10 Billion planets, it means there is no god-like civilization in the other 9.9 billion.  

So no Robert, I don't think it is a good argument because we humans on Earth are not godlike, we still depend on fossil fuels.   

[Robert F. Smith]

6 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

........................................

The problem with the idea is that it requires big numbers. It's true with enough planets you could get godlike civilizations, but you end up with more planets without godlike civilizations. In other words, if there is one god-like civilization in every 10 Billion planets, it means there is no god-like civilization in the other 9.9 billion.

You appear unfamiliar with the argument being made by most astrophysicists, and it is indeed based on statistics, and the existence of exoplanets which have been around a long time -- much longer than Earth and our solar system.  Atheist scientists have no problem with natural "gods" under those conditions.  The kicker is that the Mormon God is a natural God -- unlike the phony unnatural God of the other theistic religions.

6 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

So no Robert, I don't think it is a good argument because we humans on Earth are not godlike, we still depend on fossil fuels.   

I did  not suggest that humans on Earth are godlike.  As I have advised you many times, you need to read more carefully.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

One of the nice things about these mediums, and about the NDEs (whether phony or real), is that we so frequently hear of family members there to greet us, and sometimes even the beloved family dog.  Does that fit in with your personal religion, Tacenda?  Does it even matter?

I guess I don't understand your question as far as asking about my personal religion, but the youtubes or hearing/reading about my niece who is a medium and her clients comments, makes me feel a lot better about the afterlife and thinking about and  hoping to see my parents and God would be such a happy ending. 

[Rain]

On 1/30/2018 at 7:20 AM, Atheist Mormon said:

I hope you will be comfortable to respond...I'm curious about the degree of your surety that God exists...How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction? It was very hard for me in my believing days even. Any of you believers hod the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? 

I am called arrogant/presumptuous and some bad adjectives for my stance for self assurance that this is it and willing to bet anything on it. And I think it is very possible, not so distant future might be able to transfer /upload our memories to machines, even then it won't be real us, I'm convinced what makes our consciousness possible is our brain. 

I am sure God exists and loves me as much as I am sure of anything in life. Everything else spiritual falls into the two categories Rongo described. I had an experience 30 years ago that got me to this point. I don't do anything to maintain my faith in his existence. I cannot explain how, but it is a part of me as much my blood, skin, pancreas are a part of me. I don't expect anyone else to feel this way. Without my experience it would be like everything else - in the two rongo categories. 

So why did I get that experience and others don't? I don't know.  Why does Tacenda have tender, compassionate feelings that I don't?  Why do some here have healthy bodies and I have lived with diabetes since I was 9? Why do so many have the ability to access vocabulary when they post, but that access is constantly blocking me? 

Yes, you can go through biologically etc and say genetics or other similar things, but that answers, "what causes ____?" and not why.

I attended attended an event on Sunday at a mosque. The speaker talked about similariies between muslims, jews and christians. That when we work together with love we can accomplish a lot in helping people.

When I think of all that, then I can't hold you as arrogant. I don't worry so much about the whys of who gets what gifts. Somehow we all get our gifts and, for some, a surety of God wasn't your gift. But when we work together the gifts we have been given bless us all.

As far as the next life - if it doesn't exist then meh, what will it matter?  This idea goes back to why you choose the things you choose to do. Do you choose to exercise because you might get punished/have a heart attack? Do you choose to exercise because you will get rewarded/lose weight? Do you choose to exercise because of how it makes you feel? Or that is how you want to feel? Do you choose it because it is a part of who you are?

That's how I look at all choices in life. We all move along the scale in everything we do. If you do things only because you will be punished or rewarded in the afterlife then, if it were possible, you would feel disappointed, irritated etc. when you found out there was no afterlife.  If you are doing things because of how it makes you feel or it is who you are then this life was enough if there is no existance. Little by little, everything I do moves along that scale.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Rain

[SamuelTheLamanite]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You appear unfamiliar with the argument being made by most astrophysicists, and it is indeed based on statistics, and the existence of exoplanets which have been around a long time -- much longer than Earth and our solar system.  Atheist scientists have no problem with natural "gods" under those conditions. 

Robert, I understand what you are telling me.  Sure, many scientists speculate of god-like type three civilizations.  What I am saying is that most planets don't have god-like civilizations. Would you agree?

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 (creating life, terraforming planets, etc.).

Okay think about it Robert. Let's assume there are god-like aliens that create planets and life. What is the probability that a god-like alien created our planet? The probability is very small due to the fact that SETI and Breakthrough  haven't detected anything yet. So if god-like alien civilizations exists, it means they are extremely rare.

Let's assume there is a god-like civilization in some galaxies, if that it the case then it would mean there are no god aliens in many galaxies.  Now, imagine there are many universes. If there are many universes it means some of them don't have a god-like civilization. If there are no god-like aliens in some universes, what is the probability that a god-like alien exists in our universe? 

Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite