How sure/convinced are you?

[SamuelTheLamanite]

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Once again you engage in silly speculation about what constitutes 96% of the universe (which we can't see or touch), thus making your ignorance the measure of reality.  Most physicists do not know what Dark Energy & Dark Matter are, and you and I are not physicists.  What makes you think that your comments are in any way meaningful on this question?  You need some humility, Sam.

Robert,  André Maeder theory doesn't need a mysterious dark matter and energy.  Robert,  just because scientists don't know what dark energy and matter are (assuming they exists) it doesn't mean they are clueless about everything.

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I already addressed that, and you have refused to reply:

Reply to what? You didn't answer my question about what is more likely. (1) aliens making planets near them (2) aliens traveling thousands or millions of light years to make planets.  Robert I know number two is possible, we can keep speculating about things that we don't actually know. 

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What have I said here that you do not comprehend?  You just keep repeating yourself, as though these "godlike beings" lived in the stone age, with no form of high technology.  Why do you insist that these "godlike beings" are yokels?  For you, apparently, presentism has become a religion, a comforting dogma.

Robert. I am not saying advance aliens are yokels. You keep accusing me of things I am not saying. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Robert,  André Maeder theory doesn't need a mysterious dark matter and energy.  Robert,  just because scientists don't know what dark energy and matter are (assuming they exists) it doesn't mean they are clueless about everything.

You can make a god out of Maeder, if you wish, but we will still be in total ignorance of the actual nature of Dark Matter & Dark Energy.  Anyone can come up with wild suggestions, but that is not the same as scientific fact.  You have never indicated that you know what science is, much less what it means.  Why are you afraid to accept scientific fact?

1 hour ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Reply to what? You didn't answer my question about what is more likely. (1) aliens making planets near them (2) aliens traveling thousands or millions of light years to make planets.  Robert I know number two is possible, we can keep speculating about things that we don't actually know. 

Robert. I am not saying advance aliens are yokels. You keep accusing me of things I am not saying. 

If that is the case, why are you afraid to reply to what I have said in each case.  I even repeated it for you, yet you do not even attempt to explain why the aliens have to be yokels (which is a claim you make by implication).  Perhaps fear is the reason you fail to address such issues.  A conversation works two ways (bidirectional), but you make a habit of only repeating yourself instead of responding to comments.  In cases of that kind, college students tend to get very poor grades -- as a result of failure to engage the actual issues.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

  Anyone can come up with wild suggestions, but that is not the same as scientific fact. 

Sure, but do you think type II and III civilizations are a scientific fact?  

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You can make a god out of Maeder, if you wish, but we will still be in total ignorance of the actual nature of Dark Matter & Dark Energy. 

Okay, if scientists ever learn what dark matter and energy are, then they won't be ignorant about the 96% anymore. 

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If that is the case, why are you afraid to reply to what I have said in each case.  I even repeated it for you, yet you do not even attempt to explain why the aliens have to be yokels (which is a claim you make by implication). 

No Robert, I am not claiming aliens are yokels. You are misreading everything I am telling you. Sure it's possible there are aliens that travel thousands or millions of light years to create planets in a isolated star, but it would easier for the aliens to create planets near them, perhaps in their own solar system. There is no need for them to travel far far away to create a planet. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Robert F. Smith]

8 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Sure, but do you think type II and III civilizations are a scientific fact? 

Or type IV and V.  What has that got to do with our discussion?  Does this mean that you are now rejecting the argument from design?

8 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Okay, if scientists ever learn what dark matter and energy are, then they won't be ignorant about the 96% anymore.

That is a fallacy, Sam.  That's like arguing that when Neanderthals find out how a cell phone operates they won't be ignorant about that anymore.  You are still arguing from total ignorance.  You seem completely unwilling to admit that we just don't know very much about the universe -- we only understand about 4% of it.  That does not make us masters of the universe.  Why are you afraid to admit that?

8 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

No Robert, I am not claiming aliens are yokels. You are misreading everything I am telling you. Sure it's possible there are aliens that travel thousands or millions of light years to create planets in a isolated star, but it would easier for the aliens to create planets near them, perhaps in their own solar system. There is no need for them to travel far far away to create a planet. 

Once again you deliberately ignore what I said:  Aliens do not need to travel thousands or millions of ly to create planets at a distant star.  I said that repeatedly, and you ignored it.  Why are you afraid to deal with what I say, and instead invent claims I have not made?  I know of no reason why you invent alien yokels who would travel great distances.  Do you have reading difficulties?  Is that why you miss the point each time and cannot understand that aliens are not stone age humans?  You always assume that aliens are idiots and that they have stone age technology, and therefore would have to travel vast ly distances to populate another system.  You always reject the notion that they might have advanced technology which enables them to cross those vast distances quickly.  You are a presentist, relying on the idiocy of the aliens in all your comments.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Or type IV and V.  What has that got to do with our discussion?

Robert, type I, II, III, IV, and V are not a scientific fact. Yes, extraterrestrial life is highly probable, including intelligent extraterrestrial life, but no one can say type II - V civilizations are probable.  The fact that we haven't detected signals means type II - V are not very common, and there is no way there are  IV and V civilizations in our milky way galaxy, we would see evidence of their presence with our naked eye. A type III in our milky way galaxy is highly unlikely.   

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That is a fallacy, Sam.  That's like arguing that when Neanderthals find out how a cell phone operates they won't be ignorant about that anymore.  You are still arguing from total ignorance.  You seem completely unwilling to admit that we just don't know very much about the universe -- we only understand about 4% of it.  That does not make us masters of the universe.  Why are you afraid to admit that?

I am not, scientists are ignorant about many things, but pointing to dark matter and dark energy isn't a good example. If we learn what dark matter and energy are, then we  won't be ignorant about the 96% anymore.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Once again you deliberately ignore what I said:  Aliens do not need to travel thousands or millions of ly to create planets at a distant star. 

Yes Robert, you did tell me "We have no credible reason to believe that any godlike beings ever had to travel thousands or millions of lightyears to go anywhere to do anything." but in the same post you said  "godlike beings created Earth and Earthlife." So I was thinking you were miswriting.  You are very unclear Robert.

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

Why would the aliens send a spacecraft to create a planet far far away?

Edited February 9, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 You always reject the notion that they might have advanced technology which enables them to cross those vast distances quickly. 

Robert, it's the same thing. With a wormhole or not they would still travel thousands or millions of lights years. Why would aliens travel great distances (quickly or not) to create a planet in a isolated star?

What is easier 1) creating planets near you 2) creating planets far away and traveling through a dangerous wormhole?

Edited February 9, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

Quote

 While wormholes are possible according to Einstein's theory of general relativity, such exotic voyages will likely remain in the realm of science fiction, said renowned astrophysicist Kip Thorne of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, who served as an adviser and executive producer on "Interstellar." ['Interstellar': A Space Epic in Pictures] Advertisement "The jury is not in, so we just don't know," Thorne, one of the world's leading authorities on relativity, black holes and wormholes, told Space.com. "But there are very strong indications that wormholes that a human could travel through are forbidden by the laws of physics. That's sad, that's unfortunate, but that's the direction in which things are pointing."

So Robert, what is our best guess? Or do we simply make wild speculations?

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Or type IV and V.  What has that got to do with our discussion?  Does this mean that you are now rejecting the argument from design?

Robert, if technology makes aliens god-like, then why would we need faith and the gospel? Is technology all we need to become like god?

[Teancum]

On 2/7/2018 at 10:28 PM, mfbukowski said:

The problem is that religion is not about facts like whether or not evolution is "true" or how or when the earth was created.

Did you get that?  Science does not deal with what is important to humanity- it is deliberately valueless.  It cannot tell you that murder is wrong or even that global warming is "wrong"- just the facts about HOW things work

Religion should not even try to ask those questions and those who think it does are mistaken.  Religion is about questions of WHY things are as the are, the purpose of our own lives and possibly even the purpose of the earth.

But we have been there and done all that 

I know we have. You have to understand that my profession is one of evidence and skepticism and looking to prove things wrong. As I was trained my teachers took my work and picked it apart.  I now do the same with my staff. 

Philosophy is tough for me to get my head around. It seems mumbo jumbo.  But one of my goals, when I have more time, is to educate myself in it. There is a University in my town that let's retired seniors attend courses for free and no tests!  When I am in a position to do this I plan to take advantage. Philosophy will be at the top of my list.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Robert, if technology makes aliens god-like, then why would we need faith and the gospel? Is technology all we need to become like god?

"Does this mean that you are now rejecting the argument from design?"  An easy question, Sam, because it appears that you are now rejecting it, where before you accepted it.  Why do you speak out of both sides of your mouth?  Are you afraid to be frank?

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Robert, it's the same thing. With a wormhole or not they would still travel thousands or millions of lights years. Why would aliens travel great distances (quickly or not) to create a planet in a isolated star?

What is easier 1) creating planets near you 2) creating planets far away and traveling through a dangerous wormhole?

I did not say that they had to travel through a wormhole.  That is your idea.  What I said was that (based on your ignorance of their technology) you claim that they must cross vast distances, which you apparently believe they would not do -- which seems like a reasonable position for you and me to take -- I see no reason for them to cross vast distances at all.  Only an idiot would do that.  So, why do you keep making that silly claim?  For you stone age technology is all the aliens can have, and at least you consistently stick to that story.

Nest you'll be telling me that the best technology the aliens could have must be a rocket like the one Elon Musk launched from Cape Kennedy the other day.  Then you will calculate how long it would take to get to proxima Centauri.  You love stone age technology, Sam.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I did not say that they had to travel through a wormhole.  That is your idea.  What I said was that (based on your ignorance of their technology) you claim that they must cross vast distances, which you apparently believe they would not do -- which seems like a reasonable position for you and me to take -- I see no reason for them to cross vast distances at all.  Only an idiot would do that.

Okay Robert. Let me summarize what I am saying again in one single sentence.

The aliens probably didn't create our planet because there are no god-like aliens living anywhere near our planet.  

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Nest you'll be telling me that the best technology the aliens could have must be a rocket like the one Elon Musk launched from Cape Kennedy the other day.  Then you will calculate how long it would take to get to proxima Centauri.  You love stone age technology, Sam.

Robert, I keep telling you it is possible type iii, IV, and V civilizations exists, but it is highly unlikely that such civilizations are our cosmic neighbors.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Robert, type I, II, III, IV, and V are not a scientific fact. Yes, extraterrestrial life is highly probable, including intelligent extraterrestrial life, but no one can say type II - V civilizations are probable.  The fact that we haven't detected signals means type II - V are not very common, and there is no way there are  IV and V civilizations in our milky way galaxy, we would see evidence of their presence with our naked eye. A type III in our milky way galaxy is highly unlikely.

We do not in fact know what we would or could see from that ET which you say is "highly probable."  You speculate wildly about what we can or are likely to see/detect, while completely ignorant of the basics of the universe and of the capacity of those ETs.  Moreover, when you look at a distant star, you apparently fail to understand that you are looking into the deep past -- even though you seem to realize that it is at a vast distance from us.

4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I am not, scientists are ignorant about many things, but pointing to dark matter and dark energy isn't a good example. If we learn what dark matter and energy are, then we  won't be ignorant about the 96% anymore.

Brilliant, Sam.  I'll tell all the Neanderthals I meet that, when they understand Dark Matter & Dark Energy, they won't be ignorant of that anymore.  Are you sure that you didn't just come from the Mad Hatter's tea party?

4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Yes Robert, you did tell me "We have no credible reason to believe that any godlike beings ever had to travel thousands or millions of lightyears to go anywhere to do anything." but in the same post you said  "godlike beings created Earth and Earthlife." So I was thinking you were miswriting.  You are very unclear Robert.

You need to learn how to read, Sam.  The concepts are relatively simple.  I'll repeat them for you again:  You say you believe in the argument from design, which indicates that you think that Earth and Earthlife were created by a designer.  You even say that "extraterrestrial life is highly probable, including intelligent extraterrestrial life."  We agree on all that, unless you will decide once again to go into a spasm of denial.

Is that designer going to spend eons (thousands of years) traveling to another locality in the galaxy to do his work?  Not likely.  He'd have to be pretty stupid to do that, wouldn't he?  So, given that the designer can create life and do terraforming, we might want to assume that he has powerful, advanced capabilities.  Do we understand those capabilities?  Of course, not.  Why would we?  However, with such capabilities ,one could reasonably assume that travel is not a problem, even though it is beyond human ken.  Something like instant quantum entanglement, perhaps, which makes no sense to modern physics, but is a scientific fact nonetheless.

Since Earth and Earthlife are here in front of us, we don't have to suppose or theorize that life can exist.  Since we both agree on the argument from design, we both apparently accept the notion that ETs have done their work here.  Where did those ETs come from?  I don't know, but they likely came from somewhere in the universe -- or don't you agree?

[Robert F. Smith]

11 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

.............The aliens probably didn't create our planet because there are no god-like aliens living anywhere near our planet.

I'm not sure what you mean by "near," whether inside our solar system, or as "near" as alpha Centauri -- which doesn't really seem very "near" to my mind.  If you are saying that there are no aliens inside our solar system, or at alpha Centauri, I'd want to know on what basis you make those statements -- which scientists do not even know (you seem to have one up on them, Sam).

Or perhaps by "near" you are referring to the star Kolob, which is “nearest unto” the throne of God (Book of Abraham 3:2-9, facsimile 2:1-5).  Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by "near."  Also, where is Kolob?

11 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

............ it is possible type iii, IV, and V civilizations exists, but it is highly unlikely that such civilizations are our cosmic neighbors.

Yeh, especially if they are clones of Elon Musk.  Or  maybe you are inserting Fred Rogers' cosmic neighborhood into the discussion.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

41 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "near," whether inside our solar system, or as "near" as alpha Centauri -- which doesn't really seem very "near" to my mind.  If you are saying that there are no aliens inside our solar system, or at alpha Centauri, I'd want to know on what basis you make those statements -- which scientists do not even know (you seem to have one up on them, Sam).

I gave you articles https://www.space.com/30581-advanced-alien-civilizations-search-finds-nothing.html

and because we have not detected signals it means our universe isn't full of advanced god-like extraterrestrial life.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Brilliant, Sam.  I'll tell all the Neanderthals I meet that, when they understand Dark Matter & Dark Energy, they won't be ignorant of that anymore.  Are you sure that you didn't just come from the Mad Hatter's tea party?

You are missing the point. Your argument that we don't know what dark energy and matter are doesn't mean much.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

  Moreover, when you look at a distant star, you apparently fail to understand that you are looking into the deep past -- even though you seem to realize that it is at a vast distance from us.

I know Robert.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You even say that "extraterrestrial life is highly probable, including intelligent extraterrestrial life."  We agree on all that, unless you will decide once again to go into a spasm of denial

Yes, but there are many possible levels of intelligent life. I didn't say type III to V are highly probable. 

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Is that designer going to spend eons (thousands of years) traveling to another locality in the galaxy to do his work?  Not likely.  He'd have to be pretty stupid to do that, wouldn't he?

Exactly  .

Edited February 10, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Calm]

Samuel, you ever watched Star Trek...the whole Prime Directive thing, including hiding their existence from nonstarfaring civilizations because the potential negative impact on that society?

PS:  have you considered the possibility that the galaxy is stuffed with advanced technological societies, but they decided to hide themselves from us until we could approach them as semiequals and so put devices around our earth or even solar system that blocks all signs of technology out there from getting to earth?  We have the ability to jam devices, stealth technology, etc.  ramp that up a thousand degrees, why not accept there may be advanced life out there preventing us from noticing them?

Edited February 10, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

40 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

I gave you articles https://www.space.com/30581-advanced-alien-civilizations-search-finds-nothing.html

and because we have not detected signals it means our universe isn't full of advanced god-like extraterrestrial life.

You are missing the point. Your argument that we don't know what dark energy and matter are doesn't mean much.

It doesn't mean much to the Neanderthal or Mad Hatter either, Sam.  Just like you, they have no context in which to place it, and wouldn't understand it even if were explained to them.  Once again, you make your ignorance the measure of reality, something which scientists don't do.

40 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

................Yes, but there are many possible levels of intelligent life. I didn't say type III to V are highly probable. ..................

Since I don't know what form they take, and their actual nature, I don't classify them by our stone-age standards.  We do not know how many there are, nor their capabilities.  Yet, you seem so certain that you've got a hammerlock on them, Sam.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It doesn't mean much to the Neanderthal or Mad Hatter either, Sam.  Just like you, they have no context in which to place it, and wouldn't understand it even if were explained to them.  Once again, you make your ignorance the measure of reality, something which scientists don't do.

Robert, you are missing the point.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Since I don't know what form they take, and their actual nature, I don't classify them by our stone-age standards.  We do not know how many there are, nor their capabilities.  Yet, you seem so certain that you've got a hammerlock on them, Sam.

perhaps a type III-V exists in a far far away galaxy, but we can only speculate. I do hope such civilization exists, and it would be cool if we humans  become an advance civilization.

Edited February 10, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Samuel, you ever watched Star Trek...the whole Prime Directive thing, including hiding their existence from nonstarfaring civilizations because the potential negative impact on that society?

PS:  have you considered the possibility that the galaxy is stuffed with advanced technological societies, but they decided to hide themselves from us until we could approach them as semiequals and so put devices around our earth or even solar system that blocks all signs of technology out there from getting to earth?

interesting possibility 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

I know we have. You have to understand that my profession is one of evidence and skepticism and looking to prove things wrong. As I was trained my teachers took my work and picked it apart.  I now do the same with my staff. 

Philosophy is tough for me to get my head around. It seems mumbo jumbo.  But one of my goals, when I have more time, is to educate myself in it. There is a University in my town that let's retired seniors attend courses for free and no tests!  When I am in a position to do this I plan to take advantage. Philosophy will be at the top of my list.

Your first question should be about David Hume and the "Is-Ought" distinction, and also what he had to say about causality.

I strongly suggest you make a note to yourself to study this as a start when you get an opportunity.  These distinctions have been generally accepted for 300 years and are important parts of why science and religion are compatible in the same way that basketball and cooking are compatible- they are different subjects dealing with different questions and problems.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem

http://www.iep.utm.edu/hume-cau/