Robert F. Smith Posted February 2, 2018 Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Robert, I understand what you are telling me. Sure, many scientists speculate of god-like type three civilizations. What I am saying is that most planets don't have god-like civilizations. Would you agree? Of course, but you are missing the point that God has created "worlds without number" (Moses 1:33). That does not suggest that everything created has life on it. In this solar system, for example, the vast majority of it is not inhabited by life. Earth life is only a very small proportion of the known components of this system. One can extrapolate from that example to many others throughout this galaxy and even the universe, on into infinity. An astrophysicist does not need to be religious to likewise extrapolate from life on Earth to the statistical likelihood of life in other systems with habitable planets. They estimate that, even if only 1% of exoplanets are in the habitable, Earthlike range, that would mean that billions of such planets exist in the known universe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY82fB7vWAw (2017) Quote Okay think about it Robert. Let's assume there are god-like aliens that create planets and life. What is the probability that a god-like alien created our planet? Yet, that is exactly what happened, Sam. Advanced aliens did create this Earth and our solar system, and populated it. They are the "engineers." Quote The probability is very small due to the fact that SETI and Breakthrough haven't detected anything yet. So if god-like alien civilizations exists, it means they are extremely rare. That's the Fermi Paradox, and it assumes that we are more capable than chimps of figuring out how humans communicate with cell phones. It is far more likely that a truly advanced civilization does not deign to speak to us ignoramuses. They could very well know we are here and not care very much. Quote Let's assume there is a god-like civilization in some galaxies, if that it the case then it would mean there are no god aliens in many galaxies. Now, imagine there are many universes. If there are many universes it means some of them don't have a god-like civilization. If there are no god-like aliens in some universes, what is the probability that a god-like alien exists in our universe? Astrophysicists instead speak of the billions of stars (and planets) in each galaxy, and the billions of galaxies in the known universe. Then they estimate the likelihood of habitable, "Goldilocks," planets in any galaxy, then how many in the observable universe. They have not been positing galaxies or universes which are absent life. That doesn't make any sense. Astrophysicists instead look at the way in which stars and galaxies form, how planets and moons typically form. They look at the vast quantities of water and of organic chemicals in the universe. There is no reason why a galaxy or the entire universe should be lifeless. Precisely the opposite appears to be the case. Life on Earth is for them a ready indicator of what life could be like elsewhere in the galaxy and universe. Edited February 2, 2018 by Robert F. Smith
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 2, 2018 Posted February 2, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Astrophysicists instead look at the way in which stars and galaxies form, how planets and moons typically form. They look at the vast quantities of water and of organic chemicals in the universe. There is no reason why a galaxy or the entire universe should be lifeless. Precisely the opposite appears to be the case. Life on Earth is for them a ready indicator of what life could be like elsewhere in the galaxy and universe. Okay Robert, I agree with everything you said above. Most scientists do believe there is intelligent alien life in the Milky Way galaxy alone. But the same scientists also believe intelligent life is rare. 22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yet, that is exactly what happened, Sam. Advanced aliens did create this Earth and our solar system, and populated it. They are the "engineers." How do you know? It is possible, but there is no reason to believe that god-like aliens create our Earth. 22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: They estimate that, even if only 1% of exoplanets are in the habitable, Earthlike range, that would mean that billions of such planets exist in the known universe. Billions of such planets could exists in the Milky Way alone. I would say it is more like Trillions for the known universe. However, if god-like type three aliens do exists, it doesn't mean they created most planets. Please tell me why you believe a type three civilization created our planet? 22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Astrophysicists instead look at the way in which stars and galaxies form, how planets and moons typically form. They look at the vast quantities of water and of organic chemicals in the universe. No one knows if advanced intergalactic type three civilizations exists. Sure, it's possible aliens are responsible for the Boötes void, but no one knows. But if they exists, it still wouldn't mean they created our planet. Edited February 2, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Robert F. Smith Posted February 3, 2018 Posted February 3, 2018 27 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: ........................................How do you know? It is possible, but there is no reason to believe that god-like aliens create our Earth. So you reject my statement that "Advanced aliens did create this Earth and our solar system, and populated it." That is LDS dogma you are rejecting. 27 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: ......................................However, if god-like type three aliens do exists, it doesn't mean they created most planets. Please tell me why you believe a type three civilization created our planet? No one knows if advanced intergalactic type three civilizations exists. Sure, it's possible aliens are responsible for the Boötes void, but no one knows. But if they exists, it still wouldn't mean they created our planet. You are confusing yourself, Sam. As I said: "Advanced aliens did create this Earth and our solar system, and populated it." That is Mormon doctrine.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 On 2/3/2018 at 12:03 AM, Robert F. Smith said: You are confusing yourself, Sam. As I said: "Advanced aliens did create this Earth and our solar system, and populated it." That is Mormon doctrine. What is the probability that advanced aliens created and populated our planet?
Robert F. Smith Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 3 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: What is the probability that advanced aliens created and populated our planet? Don't know. What factors would we need to include in such a statistical analysis? Is it even possible to do the math when a Designer creates a watch? You already have a watchmaker, the materials, and the knowledge and ability of the watchmaker to make a watch: Can we estimate the likelihood that he will make a watch simply by dead reckoning? However, since advanced aliens did in fact create and populate this planet (namely God and His heavenly host), we at least know that it is possible. 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 On 1/31/2018 at 2:40 PM, Atheist Mormon said: I can't be agnostic....because there's no possibility (after63 yrs of my life) a deity will come & make himself present. Would you feel the same about type three civilizations?
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 4, 2018 Posted February 4, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: However, since advanced aliens did in fact create and populate this planet (namely God and His heavenly host), we at least know that it is possible. Let's just focus on probability, let's not talk about our religion for now. Most planets out-there are lifeless and purposeless. The search for alien life (SETI and Breakthrough) has so far been fruitless, and it may be the case that there are zero type three aliens in our galaxy. Our entire Universe may be empty of type three civilizations, we just don't know. I hope we humans detect a type three civilization soon, but it is just my wishful thinking. Hopefully someday in the great Boötes void we detect some interesting signals. Robert, it is almost certain that we have no type three cosmic neighbors because they would be obvious and easy to detect. If we have no type three cosmic neighbors, then how likely is it that a god-like civilization created our planet? Why would a type three civilization travel for millions of years to create a planet in a loner star? and why only one planet in our entire solar system? Edited February 4, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Robert F. Smith Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Let's just focus on probability, let's not talk about our religion for now. I was talking hard science, and I asked you which factors you would use to calculate the probability of life appearing on Earth, or on any other Earthlike planet. You did not respond with a list of valid factors to use in calculating such probability. Moreover, you ignored the actual presence of life on planet Earth by consigning it to religion. 5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Most planets out-there are lifeless and purposeless. The search for alien life (SETI and Breakthrough) has so far been fruitless, and it may be the case that there are zero type three aliens in our galaxy. Our entire Universe may be empty of type three civilizations, we just don't know. I hope we humans detect a type three civilization soon, but it is just my wishful thinking. Hopefully someday in the great Boötes void we detect some interesting signals. Robert, it is almost certain that we have no type three cosmic neighbors because they would be obvious and easy to detect. If we have no type three cosmic neighbors, then how likely is it that a god-like civilization created our planet? Why would a type three civilization travel for millions of years to create a planet in a loner star? and why only one planet in our entire solar system? You are speaking here from a position of total ignorance, which you admit when you make a statistical statement about "most planets," and "almost certain." On what factual basis do you determine those to be true and relevant? How do you calculate that most planets are lifeless? What percentage are lifeless? How do you calculate lack of purpose? You are not talking science here, but mere ignorant opinion, which entirely ignores the factual presence of life on Earth -- in addition to the opinion of most astrophysicists that life is statistically likely throughout the universe. You yourself have claimed to believe in the argument from design, which clearly assumes the presence of a designer, and is likewise applicable to Earth. Hoyle & Wickramasinghe, for example, showed many years ago that Earthlife requires a designer. Neither one of them was religious, and such a claim is not based on religion at all. They were persuaded by both science and statistics that Earthlife was created by an advanced sentient being(s). As it happens, Mormon doctrine is naturalistic and describes the same scenario. You are free to pretend otherwise, but you will not bring forth any science to support your false claims.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You are speaking here from a position of total ignorance, which you admit when you make a statistical statement about "most planets," and "almost certain." On what factual basis do you determine those to be true and relevant? How do you calculate that most planets are lifeless? Okay, I retract the lifeless claim, we just don't know. But Earth is likely the only planet in the solar system that has intelligent life, so based on what we currently know the best assumption is that most planets don't have intelligent life. 46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: You are not talking science here, but mere ignorant opinion, which entirely ignores the factual presence of life on Earth -- in addition to the opinion of most astrophysicists that life is statistically likely throughout the universe. Robert, I am only talking about what is more probable. I agree with the opinion that life likely exists throughout the universe, there is indeed a high probability that we are not alone. However, it is also likely that there are not many type three god-like civilizations in the universe, if there are any at all. 46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Hoyle & Wickramasinghe, for example, showed many years ago that Earthlife requires a designer. Robert, panspermia is not science. It is interesting, but not yet a science. 46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I was talking hard science, and I asked you which factors you would use to calculate the probability of life appearing on Earth, or on any other Earthlike planet. You did not respond with a list of valid factors to use in calculating such probability. Robert, nobody knows how probable life is. You did not respond to my questions you highlighted. How likely is it that a type two or three civilization is our cosmic neighbor? The answer is very unlikely because there are no signs. There certainly is no such civilization in Alpha Centauri A, which is our closes start. Robert, why would a type two or three civilization (assuming they exists) travel thousands or millions of light-years to create a planet in a far away star? No matter how advance the aliens are, they wouldn't be omnipotent. Edited February 5, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Robert F. Smith Posted February 5, 2018 Posted February 5, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Okay, I retract the lifeless claim, we just don't know. But Earth is likely the only planet in the solar system that has intelligent life, so based on what we currently know the best assumption is that most planets don't have intelligent life. Once again you are speaking from ignorance: What scientific factors do you use to calculate "most"? I want to see your math, and the justification in science for each factor applied. You are speaking in generalities about "most." I want specific numbers. Quote Robert, I am only talking about what is more probable. I agree with the opinion that life likely exists throughout the universe, there is indeed a high probability that we are not alone. However, it is also likely that there are not many type three god-like civilizations in the universe, if there are any at all. If you think "that life exists throughout the universe," please give me the several scientific factors upon which you base that judgment. What is the basis of your "high probability"? Yet you suspect that there are not many advanced aliens at best, and perhaps not any at worst. What is the actual basis for such estimates? Or are you just shooting from the hip? Quote Robert, panspermia is not science. It is interesting, but not yet a science. The theory of transmission of life from elsewhere (panspermia) is a scientific theory, and is only advanced by scientists such DeGrasse Tyson, and many others. However, Hoyle and Wickramasinghe did not start with panspermia, and have a far more encompassing theory based on mathematical likelihood: Quote Atheist-turned-agnostic astronomer Fred Hoyle, who coined the term “Big Bang,” famously stated, “A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics." As Hoyle saw it, the Big Bang was not a chaotic explosion, but rather a very highly ordered event – one that could not have occurred by random chance. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/20/does-the-big-bang-breakthrough-offer-proof-of-god/ . They did the math and found that life could not be random. Then they began looking around for ways in which that could be true. Quote Robert, nobody knows how probable life is. We have life right here on Earth and organic molecules and water scattered throughout the universe. Those are some of the compelling factors scientists use in calculating the likelihood of life elsewhere. Quote You did not respond to my questions you highlighted. How likely is it that a type two or three civilization is our cosmic neighbor? The answer is very unlikely because there are no signs. There certainly is no such civilization in Alpha Centauri A, which is our closes start. The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) will be launched next year, allowing us for the first time to closely examine the atmosphere of Earth-size exoplanets. We are only in the beginning stage of finding and examining exoplanets. It is very difficult to assay life at this distance, and your estimate of "very unlikely" is based on collective ignorance. https://newatlas.com/james-webb-telescope-trappist-exoplanets/48075/ . Quote Robert, why would a type two or three civilization (assuming they exists) travel thousands or millions of light-years to create a planet in a far away star? No matter how advance the aliens are, they wouldn't be omnipotent. You are assuming that advanced alien civilizations would be as ignorant as humans are today -- a kind of presentism. And such a notion as you advance here ignores what we now know of spooky quantum mechanics -- particles can be influenced at faster than the speed of light, which should be impossible. Here is Michio Kaku: Quote "If I have two electrons close together, they can vibrate in unison, according to the quantum theory," Kaku explains on Big Think. Now, separate those two electrons so that they're hundreds or even thousands of light years apart, and they will keep this instant communication bridge open. "If I jiggle one electron, the other electron 'senses' this vibration instantly, faster than the speed of light. Einstein thought that this therefore disproved the quantum theory, since nothing can go faster than light," Kaku wrote. * * * * "The only viable way of breaking the light barrier may be through general relativity and the warping of space time," Kaku writes. This warping is what we colloquially call a wormhole, which theoretically would let something travel vast distances instantaneously, essentially enabling us to break the cosmic speed limit by traveling great distances in a very short amount of time. https://sciencealert.com/these-4-cosmic-phenomena-travel-faster-than-the-speed-of-light . Would an advanced alien civilization actually be hemmed in by our relative ignorance? Heck, we don't even know what Dark Energy and Dark Matter are, and that is what makes up about 96% of the universe. https://www.space.com/11642-dark-matter-dark-energy-4-percent-universe-panek.html . Edited February 5, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 1
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: We have life right here on Earth and organic molecules and water scattered throughout the universe. Those are some of the compelling factors scientists use in calculating the likelihood of life elsewhere. Robert, I told you it is highly probable alien life exists throughout the universe. 20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: If you think "that life exists throughout the universe," please give me the several scientific factors upon which you base that judgment. What is the basis of your "high probability"? Yet you suspect that there are not many advanced aliens at best, and perhaps not any at worst. What is the actual basis for such estimates? Or are you just shooting from the hip? Robert, for about eighty years we’ve been listening for signs of alien life with radio technology. What makes you think a god like civilization is our cosmic neighbor? Do you understand the The Kardashev Scale? You can read a space article "Are We Alone? Survey Finds No Sign of Advanced Alien Civilizations". https://www.space.com/30581-advanced-alien-civilizations-search-finds-nothing.htm 20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The theory of transmission of life from elsewhere (panspermia) is a scientific theory, and is only advanced by scientists such DeGrasse Tyson, and many others. However, Hoyle and Wickramasinghe did not start with panspermia, and have a far more encompassing theory based on mathematical likelihood: Panspermia is more accurately a hypothesis, not a theory Robert. It is true panspermia is plausible, but it is not a science yet. 20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) will be launched next year, allowing us for the first time to closely examine the atmosphere of Earth-size exoplanets. We are only in the beginning stage of finding and examining exoplanets. It is very difficult to assay life at this distance, and your estimate of "very unlikely" is based on collective ignorance. https://newatlas.com/james-webb-telescope-trappist-exoplanets/48075/ . . Robert, before you continue to accuse me of ignorance I am going to clarify some things. Just because it is highly probable extraterrestrial life exists doesn't mean type two and three civilizations exists everywhere. We humans on Earth are not even type one, so what makes you think type two and three civilizations are common?
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You are assuming that advanced alien civilizations would be as ignorant as humans are today -- a kind of presentism. And such a notion as you advance here ignores what we now know of spooky quantum mechanics -- particles can be influenced at faster than the speed of light, which should be impossible. Here is Michio Kaku: Robert, You are assuming type two and three civilizations exists. Extraterrestrial life doesn't have to be a type two or three civilization. Yes Robert, wormholes are theoretically possible, but we don't know if they really exists. Even if wormholes can be created, why would aliens travel through wormholes to make a planet far away? Wouldn't it be easier for aliens to create planets near them? 21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Heck, we don't even know what Dark Energy and Dark Matter are, and that is what makes up about 96% of the universe. and we don't even know if a type two or three civilization exists in the universe. Ask Michio Kaku if we know. Edited February 6, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Yet you suspect that there are not many advanced aliens at best, and perhaps not any at worst. The president of METI International said, "if there were alien life at the TRAPPIST-1 planets, just 40 light years away, they wouldn’t need particularly advanced technology to contact us. It seems implausible that we would miss their call." Edited February 6, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Robert F. Smith Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 4 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: The president of METI International said, "if there were alien life at the TRAPPIST-1 planets, just 40 light years away, they wouldn’t need particularly advanced technology to contact us. It seems implausible that we would miss their call." That assumes that they are there and they are trying to contact us. Neither is a known fact, as you yourself seem to admit. Moreover, it assumes once again (your bad habit) that they possess only our primitive technology. Seems implausible to me.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: That assumes that they are there and they are trying to contact us. Neither is a known fact, as you yourself seem to admit. Moreover, it assumes once again (your bad habit) that they possess only our primitive technology. Seems implausible to me. Robert, there could be many type of aliens, I am not assuming all aliens posses our technology. Robert, "advance aliens" is too general, I am specifically talking about type two or three aliens. Based on what we currently know now, our best guess is that there aren't many type two or three aliens civilizations. If I am wrong please tell me why and share some references https://www.space.com/30581-advanced-alien-civilizations-search-finds-nothing.html Edited February 6, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Robert F. Smith Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 17 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: ...........You are assuming type two and three civilizations exists. Extraterrestrial life doesn't have to be a type two or three civilization. ... we don't even know if a type two or three civilization exists in the universe. .......................... I used no such classifications, and I do not assume that advanced aliens exist in any particular place. 17 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: ............wormholes are theoretically possible, but we don't know if they really exists. Even if wormholes can be created, why would aliens travel through wormholes to make a planet far away? Wouldn't it be easier for aliens to create planets near them? ........................ I agree. I do not know whether wormholes exist or are efficacious, but I am not declaring that advanced aliens have actually done more than transmit lifeforms to other planets. Somehow. Perhaps they terraform planets as well, perhaps not. That would depend on the level of their technology. We don't have the facts, but we cannot say what their motives might be, nor how they might go about traveling what might seem to them very short distances. With those imponderables aside, we are left with the argument from design, which both of us agree is a valid argument, and which excludes the spontaneous appearance of life on planet Earth Somebody created or brought life here. Who might that be, Sam?.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: I agree. I do not know whether wormholes exist or are efficacious, but I am not declaring that advanced aliens have actually done more than transmit lifeforms to other planets. Somehow. Perhaps they terraform planets as well, perhaps not. That would depend on the level of their technology. We don't have the facts, but we cannot say what their motives might be, nor how they might go about traveling what might seem to them very short distances. If you want to speculate I am with you. We can speculate for many hours. Sure, we don't know their motives, but for me it makes sense that type two and three aliens (if they exists) don't create planets far far away. Edited February 6, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite
Robert F. Smith Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: .......there could be many type of aliens, I am not assuming all aliens posses our technology. ........, "advance aliens" is too general, I am specifically talking about type two or three aliens. Based on what we currently know now, our best guess is that there aren't many type two or three aliens civilizations. If I am wrong please tell me why and share some references https://www.space.com/30581-advanced-alien-civilizations-search-finds-nothing.html The reason why astrophysicists assume that there are many advanced aliens (up to and including type IV) in our galaxy and in the observable universe is that many systems are very old. Our solar system is relatively young. That means that many lifeforms will have had more time to develop high technology than we have. Thousands of years more. In fact we have Earth-sized planets which formed twice as long ago as Earth (Earth about 4.6 billion years ago, and the planets in question are around 11.2 billion years old -- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2894672/Earth-sized-planet-Milky-Way-TWICE-old-solar-discovery-suggests-life-formed-billions-years-earlier-thought.html ). Within those parameters, it is not hard to imagine long periods of potential technological development. We cannot know or imagine the nature of that technology. There is a nice discussion online at https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/alien-supercivilizations-absent-from-100-000-nearby-galaxies/ , which covers points both of us have been making.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 6, 2018 Posted February 6, 2018 30 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: If you want to speculate I am with you. We can speculate for many hours. Sure, we don't know their motives, but for me it makes sense that type two and three aliens (if they exists) don't create planets far far away. That's because you apply our low technology to the question. You have made our ignorance the measure of all possible reality. Why do you exclude type IV aliens? One reason to plant colonies on other planets (especially those far away) is to avoid the problem of death of an entire civilization due to an accidental flare up of deadly particles from a nearby stellar explosion, or the nova of their own sun, or other unforeseen threat (black holes, attack by others, etc.)
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The reason why astrophysicists assume that there are many advanced aliens (up to and including type IV) in our galaxy and in the observable universe is that many systems are very old. Our solar system is relatively young. That means that many lifeforms will have had more time to develop high technology than we have. Robert, what do you mean by advanced aliens? I agree there are probably many aliens with technology, but no so many above type one. So far astronomers have found no evidence of cosmic engineering, so what makes you think type II and III are common? 18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Why do you exclude type IV aliens? Because there is no type IV in the Kardashev scale. What is a type IV? "scientists use the Kardashev scale, which splits intelligent life into three categories" 19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: We cannot know or imagine the nature of that technology. Exactly. We don't know, but I already gave you plenty of reason why type two and three aren't very common. It is almost certain we have no type two or three cosmic neighbors.
SamuelTheLamanite Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 On 2/5/2018 at 7:20 AM, Robert F. Smith said: They did the math and found that life could not be random. Then they began looking around for ways in which that could be true. Robert. What do you mean by "life could not be random"? On 2/5/2018 at 7:20 AM, Robert F. Smith said: However, Hoyle and Wickramasinghe did not start with panspermia, and have a far more encompassing theory based on mathematical likelihood: Are the views of Hoyle and Wickramasighe shared by the majority of scientists?
Robert F. Smith Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Robert. What do you mean by "life could not be random"? Based on the Second Law of Thermodynamics (Entropy), and a number of other laws and physical facts, it does not appear that life just appears spontaneously (Archebiosis) -- at random -- but must be in continuity from somewhere else (Transmission), or cleverly designed by an astrobiological engineer (Designer). You yourself have agreed that the argument from design is valid. When we find a watch, we never imagine that it just fell together by accident. We know that there was a watchmaker. Just so, the presence of "Goldilocks" planets goes beyond mere happenstance. 4 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Are the views of Hoyle and Wickramasighe shared by the majority of scientists? No, but they are interesting nonetheless. We have very few adequate explanations for the presence of life on Earth, and most astronomers believe that life is present in many places elsewhere in the galaxy and universe, including intelligent life having been out there for eons.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 7, 2018 Posted February 7, 2018 5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Robert, what do you mean by advanced aliens? I agree there are probably many aliens with technology, but no so many above type one. So far astronomers have found no evidence of cosmic engineering, so what makes you think type II and III are common? Because there is no type IV in the Kardashev scale. What is a type IV? "scientists use the Kardashev scale, which splits intelligent life into three categories" You may have heard of the great physicist, Michio Kaku. He introduced the type IV. You need to read up on that. 5 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said: Exactly. We don't know, but I already gave you plenty of reason why type two and three aren't very common. It is almost certain we have no type two or three cosmic neighbors. Once again you are arguing from ignorance. Just in case you don't know what that means (since you keep on making that empty claim), it refers to presentism in your estimates of likelihood. You are applying current knowledge of physics to beings who have already left that far behind. Do you reject the cosmology of the Book of Abraham?
Atheist Mormon Posted February 7, 2018 Author Posted February 7, 2018 On 2/4/2018 at 4:39 PM, SamuelTheLamanite said: Would you feel the same about type three civilizations? That has nothing to do with my being agnostic or not, those civilizations would be either biological or machines, even if they were appear out of nowhere they wouldn't have any religious intentions as Judeochristians purport, there will be a logical explanations. but I did not invest or contribute anytime to SETI, to me it is a futile search, considering the grandiose of the Universe.
Atheist Mormon Posted February 7, 2018 Author Posted February 7, 2018 On 2/2/2018 at 8:51 AM, Rain said: I am sure God exists and loves me as much as I am sure of anything in life. Fine, however, what you are convinced vs what the reality is in the real world based on two different perspectives. Having said that there's nothing wrong with that.
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