How sure/convinced are you?

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction?

Regular interaction. I talk; He talks back. I seek; He provides. I repent; He purifies and refines. He talks; I often complain ... and then listen. We wrestle together; sometimes He lets me win.

It has been my experience that God is as knowable as you are. I understand that you'll probably think I'm exaggerating, but I'm not. It is, in fact, one of our privileges to come to know Him, including knowing His voice.

Quote

Any of you believers hod the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? 

I'm very careful -- as I note a number of posters have been as well -- to distinguish between things I know and things I believe in/hope for. The former category is reserved for things that I have personally experienced. I haven't experienced anything after this life yet, so yes, that is a possibility. I don't believe it is because it belongs to the same 'constellation' as things I do know, but there's only one way to find out, and based on what I was told after my last health check, I don't have any reason to believe such knowledge is imminent in my case.

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I hope you will be comfortable to respond...I'm curious about the degree of your surety that God exists...How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction? It was very hard for me in my believing days even. Any of you believers hod the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? 

I am called arrogant/presumptuous and some bad adjectives for my stance for self assurance that this is it and willing to bet anything on it. And I think it is very possible, not so distant future might be able to transfer /upload our memories to machines, even then it won't be real us, I'm convinced what makes our consciousness possible is our brain. 

Well, the brain is an excellent on board computer, and it performs the same basic function in us that it does in dogs, spiders, etc., even though ours is much more highly developed.  A lot of very smart people agree with you that this life is all there is, and that nothing comes after.  And like you, many of them are not at all interested in Pascal's Wager.  If you are comfortable with that, fine with me.

Naturally, either you or believing Mormons (or religious believers of any sort) may seem arrogant and self-assured in your/their beliefs, and may discount any arguments of any kind in inquiring into those beliefs.  Neither side seems willing to admit that the other side has a rational case to make.  Due to the lack of actual knowledge of an absolute sort, some even adopt the agnostic position, which is a whole lot more humble in the face of human ignorance.  Thus, one might ask:  Why are you not agnostic?

[The Nehor]

Convinced enough that I have resisted the urge to cheat on my income taxes again for fear of losing a crown in heaven.

Edit: That ‘again’ should be taken to mean that I again resisted the temptation and not that I have cheated in the past. I am not confessing to a federal crime.

Edited January 31, 2018 by The Nehor

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I hope you will be comfortable to respond...I'm curious about the degree of your surety that God exists...How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction? It was very hard for me in my believing days even. Any of you believers hod the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? 

I am called arrogant/presumptuous and some bad adjectives for my stance for self assurance that this is it and willing to bet anything on it. And I think it is very possible, not so distant future might be able to transfer /upload our memories to machines, even then it won't be real us, I'm convinced what makes our consciousness possible is our brain. 

Just as the human race made us preeminent through humanism, so can it distill us and everything else to an algorithm (all forms of life are biochemical algorithms, AI is electrical, and all physical things can be defined as some other). We can act as if all existence does is process data (making neuroscience only the tip of the iceberg) and yet we can make a place for God in that paradigm, even as intelligence decouples from consciousness and machines become more intelligent and capable than we are in many things.

For example, when we see how the Church is using IT for genealogy and temple work for example, requiring us to essentially interface with an automated data system on a personal, subjective level much as we do with Facebook and this discussion board we become data processors in the work for the dead.

To me, this does not change the theology that God is the Man of Holiness, but does show how He relates to His children throughout the “ages of man,” as reflected in Adam’s life in the Garden (Moses 3:19-21, animist -- when he named the animals); in the Fall (Moses 5:6, naturalist -- when he knew nothing except to do stuff); in the Redemption (Moses 5:10-11 and 6:1, humanist -- when he loved his offspring); and in the Dispensation (Moses 6:5, “dataist” -- when he learned to write, keep a book of remembrance and secure the "data connection" – a.k.a. sealing -- with others). Amazing how Joseph Smith revealed how God accommodated and reconciled all these systems—syncretism at its best! I think that is one way I keep the faith. The other way is I am not going to deny what I hold to be true.

As a “dataist” do you really hold out that you will be part of no other algorithm after your mortal algorithm peters out? Will the man who knew and remembers you download his memory with you in it? Or will the man who never knew you but inherited or shares your genes send the salient pieces of you into future biochemical algorithms?

I’ve been told that agency is an illusion; that my thoughts, feelings, spirituality and choices are part of a chain of physical reactions that began generations ago, and then eons before that. Just like randomness, it is an imagined concept that gives my thoughts, feelings and choices meaning, and that need for meaning is yet another part of that same physical chain, and believing all that (or not) are part of the same chain. Also, that the part of my brain that remembers my ever-fleeting experiences “controls” (control is an illusion; it is only another part of the chain) the narrative for my past, present and future, both in terms of acknowledged fact and interpreted meaning.

So what? Sounds to me like a lot like a Heavenly Father with intelligent spirit children (and Joseph Smith allowed a LOT of room for what intelligence is!), a plan of salvation or happiness (an algorithm; can’t we design them also?), and a veil (that which lies beyond the observable universe and the faith of any ilk that theorizes what it is). What a wonderful narrative I’ve constructed for certain unexpected and foreseen experiences alike that I’ve had, so wonderful that I can only perceive them as coming from God!

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

My reason is so simple..and basic.  I have to.  In order to wake up each day with some huge decisions and problems..I have to.

Last month my father died...2 weeks later, I lost my older brother...I have to.  Believe in God.  Believe in afterlife.

I had no idea you lost your brother too. I'm so sorry for your losses Jeanne, and yes it does help to know there is a God, especially when we lose our loved ones.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Tacenda

[Atheist Mormon]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Convinced enough that I have resisted the urge to cheat on my income taxes again for fear of losing a crown in heaven.

 

I lost all my respect for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SamuelTheLamanite]

13 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

 As of today, we don't have any empirical evidence that can demonstrate either of these two claims are true.  Is there an intelligent entity of some kind that created and oversees all creation?  Does life continue on after death?  We really don't have anything that can support either of these two claims that can be tested and evaluated objectively.  So everything about these two claims is taken on faith and exists in the realm of personal subjective experience and the anecdotal experiences of others.  

Many Atheists  claim to know there is no God. It is sad

Edited January 31, 2018 by SamuelTheLamanite

[SamuelTheLamanite]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 Due to the lack of actual knowledge of an absolute sort, some even adopt the agnostic position, which is a whole lot more humble in the face of human ignorance.

Some agnostics are afraid to be wrong. Others are simply not sure if they love or hate God.

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 Thus, one might ask:  Why are you not agnostic?

Please share Robert

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Convinced enough

I will follow the teachings of the church for the rest of my life because I am  completely convinced The Nehor.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

23 minutes ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

...................Please share Robert..........................................

My question was directed to the Atheist Mormon.  Sorry if that was not clear.

[smac97]

15 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I hope you will be comfortable to respond...I'm curious about the degree of your surety that God exists...

Pretty strong.  I have had lots and lots of experiences and evidence pointing to the existence of God, and virtually none for the contrary proposition.

The Restored Gospel provides a very good framework for conceptualizing God, His attributes, His plan for us, and so on.

15 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

How do you maintain faith week after week with the conviction?

Serving others.  Taking care of my fam.  Working hard.  Keeping the commandments where I can, repenting where I mess up.  Allegiance to the community.

15 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

It was very hard for me in my believing days even. Any of you believers hod the possibility that there might not be anything after this life? 

Sure.  Pascal's Wager and all that.  I operate as if the afterlife is a given.  

One of my favorite movie quotes of all time is from the end of Ghostbusters: "See you on the other side, Ray."  

I have attended numerous funerals in the last several years.  There have been tears, yes, for these friends and loved ones.  Sadness at the separation.  But engulfing despair?  Nope.  

"See you on the other side."

Thanks,

-Smac

[cdowis]

I have an absolute and certain knowledge that God is our Father.  He has, in His own way, given me a spiritual manifestation of this truth.  I was with a group of individuals when the missionaries taught the Plan of Salvation and a voice spoke to me and said simply, "It is true."  In that moment I also remembered that I had been taught this, but did not know when or where.

I knew nothing of Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon, but I had a certain knowledge that what they were teaching me was true, for God had told me so.

Edited February 1, 2018 by cdowis

[cacheman]

20 hours ago, Waylon said:

As far as God exists, I am certain.  It is very hard to study college-level science and be an atheist, particularly cell biology.  In my opinion, God has left so many clues of his existence in biology one would have to be willfully blind not to believe in God.

That's quite an indictment on the many biologists that don't believe in God!  

[CV75]

22 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Is there an intelligent entity of some kind that created and oversees all creation?  Does life continue on after death?

Atheist dataism could assert "yes" to both questions since it holds that both the entity and life are products of algorithms, and neither is requisitely conscious.

[Waylon]

1 hour ago, cacheman said:

That's quite an indictment on the many biologists that don't believe in God!  

Indeed it is.  

Did you know that every time a cell divides within your body, a mechanism double checks to make sure the DNA strands have replicated and/or paired correctly?

Even if you believe that a machine as complex as the human body can come about through mere chance, can chance check itself?  I think not.  This is one hoop too many for me to jump through in belief.  It is far more plausible to just admit there is a God rather than say that chance somehow invented an amazing machine, and gave it the ability to double check its own construction.

I am sorry, but atheism asking me to believe that chance can double check itself is a jump into the absurd.

I know many biologists are atheist, including the biology teacher who taught me the above knowledge (a certain Michael Dini of Texas Tech University).  But they really need to step back and and look at what atheism actually demands one believes from the scientific standpoint.  It winds up taking more faith to be an atheist than just believing in God!

[Atheist Mormon]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

Pretty strong.  I have had lots and lots of experiences and evidence pointing to the existence of God, and virtually none for the contrary proposition.

The Restored Gospel provides a very good framework for conceptualizing God, His attributes, His plan for us, and so on.

Serving others.  Taking care of my fam.  Working hard.  Keeping the commandments where I can, repenting where I mess up.  Allegiance to the community.

Sure.  Pascal's Wager and all that.  I operate as if the afterlife is a given.  

One of my favorite movie quotes of all time is from the end of Ghostbusters: "See you on the other side, Ray."  

I have attended numerous funerals in the last several years.  There have been tears, yes, for these friends and loved ones.  Sadness at the separation.  But engulfing despair?  Nope.  

"See you on the other side."

Thanks,

-Smac

Thank you for enlightening answers smac.......

The only 100%  of my understanding part is your serving people & family.....When you write about your experiences pointing to God's direction I don't have to write here that most of us had some strong experiences as well. For example my life story could be a perfect success story for any active LDS.....And yet here I am looking from outside trying to understand you guys how the heck you can have such strong beliefs with no verifiable, testable claims.... 

[cacheman]

16 minutes ago, Waylon said:

Indeed it is.  

Did you know that every time a cell divides within your body, a mechanism double checks to make sure the DNA strands have replicated and/or paired correctly?

Even if you believe that a machine as complex as the human body can come about through mere chance, can chance check itself?  I think not.  This is one hoop too many for me to jump through in belief.  It is far more plausible to just admit there is a God rather than say that chance somehow invented an amazing machine, and gave it the ability to double check its own construction.

I am sorry, but atheism asking me to believe that chance can double check itself is a jump into the absurd.

I know many biologists are atheist, including the biology teacher who taught me the above knowledge (a certain Michael Dini of Texas Tech University).  But they really need to step back and and look at what atheism actually demands one believes from the scientific standpoint.  It winds up taking more faith to be an atheist than just believing in God!

I don't question the idea that you see biological processes as evidence of God.  I am intrigued however by your thought that those who don't necessarily see God's hand in it are "willfully blind".  Do you think that way because the evidences seem so obvious to you?

Also.... I don't know many biologists that believe the human body came about through mere chance. 

[Atheist Mormon]

14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, the brain is an excellent on board computer, and it performs the same basic function in us that it does in dogs, spiders, etc., even though ours is much more highly developed.  A lot of very smart people agree with you that this life is all there is, and that nothing comes after.  And like you, many of them are not at all interested in Pascal's Wager.  If you are comfortable with that, fine with me.

Naturally, either you or believing Mormons (or religious believers of any sort) may seem arrogant and self-assured in your/their beliefs, and may discount any arguments of any kind in inquiring into those beliefs.  Neither side seems willing to admit that the other side has a rational case to make.  Due to the lack of actual knowledge of an absolute sort, some even adopt the agnostic position, which is a whole lot more humble in the face of human ignorance.  Thus, one might ask:  Why are you not agnostic?

I can't be agnostic....because there's no possibility (after63 yrs of my life) a deity will come & make himself present.....It simply ain't gonna happen, If I'm a betting man; I'd put all my money and my life for it.....Just to see the result...... If you have any thoughts about agnosticism I suggest you read the letters of Mother Teresa... She knew the disappointing reality yet she was stuck in that miserable lifestyle until the day she died. 

[Waylon]

9 minutes ago, cacheman said:

I don't question the idea that you see biological processes as evidence of God.  I am intrigued however by your thought that those who don't necessarily see God's hand in it are "willfully blind".  Do you think that way because the evidences seem so obvious to you?

Also.... I don't know many biologists that believe the human body came about through mere chance. 

I think that pretty much sums it up.  I understand that people can interpret scientific data different ways, but to me the evidence seems overwhelming and obvious, and I can't see how atheists reconcile the evidence with atheism.  I am friends with and respect many atheists out there, but I just don't get their thinking!  

I used to seriously question the existence of God, back when I was a teenager.  Taking college-level biology classes changed all of that for me, though, with the discovery of double-checking DNA being kind of the moment when the possibility of becoming an atheist permanently died for me.

Regarding the human body coming about through mere chance, isn't that what organic evolution minus God and paired with the idea that the right organic compounds happened to get in contact with one another at the right times basically is, repeated over and over?

(Another evidence of God's existence: the fact that the double-checking mechanism, mentioned above, had to have evolved early in the game for cell division to even work and not to simply result in chaos).

[cacheman]

3 minutes ago, Waylon said:

I think that pretty much sums it up.  I understand that people can interpret scientific data different ways, but to me the evidence seems overwhelming and obvious, and I can't see how atheists reconcile the evidence with atheism.  I am friends with and respect many atheists out there, but I just don't get their thinking!  

I used to seriously question the existence of God, back when I was a teenager.  Taking college-level biology classes changed all of that for me, though, with the discovery of double-checking DNA being kind of the moment when the possibility of becoming an atheist permanently died for me.

Regarding the human body coming about through mere chance, isn't that what organic evolution minus God and paired with the idea that the right organic compounds happened to get in contact with one another at the right times basically is, repeated over and over?

(Another evidence of God's existence: the fact that the double-checking mechanism, mentioned above, had to have evolved early in the game for cell division to even work and not to simply result in chaos).

Chance is certainly a factor in evolution, but natural selection is a crucial component.  If we consider the development of checkpoints in the cell cycle, then why wouldn't natural selection be the driving force?  Cells with the ability to stop cell division under unfavorable conditions would seem to have an evolutionary advantage.  

I think it's worth considering that those who interpret evidence differently than yourself might just have different perspectives or a different knowledge base to draw from rather than being willfully blind (an accusation that relies on intent). 

[Waylon]

4 minutes ago, cacheman said:

Chance is certainly a factor in evolution, but natural selection is a crucial component.  If we consider the development of checkpoints in the cell cycle, then why wouldn't natural selection be the driving force?  Cells with the ability to stop cell division under unfavorable conditions would seem to have an evolutionary advantage.  

I think it's worth considering that those who interpret evidence differently than yourself might just have different perspectives or a different knowledge base to draw from rather than being willfully blind (an accusation that relies on intent). 

For what it is worth I do believe in evolution.  However I believe it works because it operates in a framework and environment created by God.

As far as taking others perspectives into consideration, I do do this and I studied biology for years under atheists.  However, I can't deny the fact that all of the evidence I have seen points to God!  This is purely scientific evidence and does not get into religious evidence, such as chiasmus and hebraisms in the Book of Mormon, etc., which further strengthens my conviction.

I do respect the convictions of atheists, even if I don't understand how atheists can believe like they do.

[kllindley]

28 minutes ago, cacheman said:

I don't question the idea that you see biological processes as evidence of God.  I am intrigued however by your thought that those who don't necessarily see God's hand in it are "willfully blind".  Do you think that way because the evidences seem so obvious to you?

Also.... I don't know many biologists that believe the human body came about through mere chance. 

By this may be too much of a thread derail, but I don't understand how a person can deny some kind of higher power, without also believing that all v of existence including the human body is the result of chance.

[hope_for_things]

10 hours ago, SamuelTheLamanite said:

Many Atheists  claim to know there is no God. It is sad

Why is that sad?  I think these same atheists might believe it is sad that you claim to know there is a God.  I tend to think that the extremes on both ends are fundamentalists of a sort, but I don't think that makes them bad people, either the devoutly religious who are absolutely certain that God exists, or the devoutly atheist who are equally as certain that God doesn't exist.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Atheist dataism could assert "yes" to both questions since it holds that both the entity and life are products of algorithms, and neither is requisitely conscious.

I learned something new today, I hadn't heard the term dataism.  Thanks for the fun look into something new.  I couldn't find where atheism and dataism are necessarily connected though, it seems to me you could be a believer in dataism and also have some concept for God.  Maybe you can clarify?  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataism

 

[cacheman]

43 minutes ago, Waylon said:

For what it is worth I do believe in evolution.  However I believe it works because it operates in a framework and environment created by God.

That's fine.  I see things differently.  For example..... I have a genetic mutation (a BRCA1 deletion - Thanks Mom! ) that interferes with the cell cycle checkpoints leading to increased chances of cancer.  There is a 50% chance that this mutation will be passed on to my daughter.  The idea that my daughter's possibility of inheriting this mutation is actually decided by God rather than chance recombination, is not realistic to me.  If that were the case, I'd have to believe that God (with very little variation) decides that half of the biological children of BRCA1 mutation carriers will receive the mutation.  It seems much simpler to me to believe in the science based mathematical probability.  Do you believe that God makes that determination?  If I don't see God's hand in it, is it because I'm willfully blind? 

43 minutes ago, Waylon said:

I do respect the convictions of atheists, even if I don't understand how atheists can believe like they do.

If you don't understand how others believe like they do, then it's probably not a good idea to say they are 'willfully blind'.   That doesn't sound very respectful.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I can't be agnostic....because there's no possibility (after63 yrs of my life) a deity will come & make himself present.....It simply ain't gonna happen, If I'm a betting man; I'd put all my money and my life for it.....Just to see the result...... If you have any thoughts about agnosticism I suggest you read the letters of Mother Teresa... She knew the disappointing reality yet she was stuck in that miserable lifestyle until the day she died. 

Do you see any evidence by way of spirit sightings aka ghost sitings? Or for me, I get some hope by reading testimonies of having had a reading from my niece who is a spiritual medium. These are strangers to her and who before their readings were very skeptical. And one testimony mentions that he would leave the meeting with my niece immediately if he felt that she was lying or had it wrong. She surprised him with things she said that absolutely no one could have known.