Pres. Monson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! drat

[CMZ]

34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As the last heartbeat of President Monson ceased President Nelson became the living oracle, the one man of D&C 132.  That makes him a successor, regardless of the First Presidency status.

Wait, it looks like you already clicked Like on that post.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

I don't think reorganizing the First Presidency is just a formality.

And it's not.
But President Nelson has already succeeded President Monson in the Priesthood.
Now he just needs to succeed to the Presidency of the Church.

But John Taylor for example didn't become President of the Church for several years after President Young died.  Yet he was still God's oracle, mouthpiece, and the one man authorized to exercise certain keys on the earth.

[Rivers]

It will take a long time for me to get used to Nelson as the President of the church.

[kiwi57]

4 minutes ago, Rivers said:

It will take a long time for me to get used to Nelson as the President of the church.

President Nelson.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, CMZ said:

I believe in the roughly three and half years since Joseph Smith was martyred and the First Presidency was organized that Brigham Young was still viewed as being president of the Church by virtue of being head of the leading body of the Church at that time. Like... there's two ways you can be "President of the Church:"

1. By being president of the First Presidency when it is organized
2. By being president of the Quorum of the Twelve when no First Presidency exists above it

During that time, the Church was under the leadership of the Twelve. Brigham Young led the Church by virtue of being president of that quorum, but I don’t believe it could appropriately or accurately be said that he was president of the Church. 

That’s why it’s called the apostolic interregnum, because it was the apostles as a body who were presiding over the Church. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

It will take a long time for me to get used to Nelson as the President of the church.

I on the other hand am already very comfortable with it. 

I love and admire the man from having observed his leadership and behavior over the years and having heard and read his public addresses.

Furthermore, I have had one-on-one contact with him on a number of occasions. He knows and addresses me by first name when we meet. 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

During that time, the Church was under the leadership of the Twelve. Brigham Young led the Church by virtue of being president of that quorum, but I don’t believe it could appropriately or accurately be said that he was president of the Church. 

That’s why it’s called the apostolic interregnum, because it was the apostles as a body who were presiding over the Church. 

This is all true.
But Brigham Young was still the oracle, the one man of D&C 132, the mouthpiece, etc the second Joseph died.
His position in relation to priesthood authority was instant.  His position in the Church took a while to come to pass.

[Bobbieaware]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

During that time, the Church was under the leadership of the Twelve. Brigham Young led the Church by virtue of being president of that quorum, but I don’t believe it could appropriately or accurately be said that he was president of the Church. 

That’s why it’s called the apostolic interregnum, because it was the apostles as a body who were presiding over the Church. 

Throw the term Apostolic Interregnum into any discussion on Church history and most of the people listening will immediately presume you”re a brilliant scholar. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is all true.
But Brigham Young was still the oracle, the one man of D&C 132, the mouthpiece, etc the second Joseph died.
His position in relation to priesthood authority was instant.  His position in the Church took a while to come to pass.

Personally I believe that time interval was necessary to establish in the minds of the Latter-day Saints the principle of succession in the leadership of the Church. 

During the succession crisis there were a number of single individuals claiming authority as Joseph’s successor, Sidney Rigdon among others. Had Brigham been appointed immediately, I believe there still could have been serious and widespread doubts. As it was, the Twelve governed long enough to establish in the minds of the people that at the death of the Church president, the First Presidency is dissolved and authority going forward immediately reverts to the Twelve as a body. 

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Throw the term Apostolic Interregnum into any discussion on Church history and most of the people listening will immediately presume you”re a brilliant scholar. 

I have B. H. Roberts to thank for it. 

[kiwi57]

Question (off-topic): Why can't I "like" a post by a "Limited" participant?

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

Question (off-topic): Why can't I "like" a post by a "Limited" participant?

They're being punished.
 No starting threads, limited responses/per day, and no likes.  I don't think they can like posts either.

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is all true.
But Brigham Young was still the oracle, the one man of D&C 132, the mouthpiece, etc the second Joseph died.
His position in relation to priesthood authority was instant.  His position in the Church took a while to come to pass.

Haven’t we always been taught, though, that it is according to “tradition” that the senior member of the Twelve is appointed by that body as Church president? That in theory they could choose a different member of the Quorum? 

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

It will take a long time for me to get used to Nelson as the President of the church.

Not me. The Lord made it clear to me that he would be when he became president of the twelve 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Haven’t we always been taught, though, that it is according to “tradition” that the senior member of the Twelve is appointed by that body as Church president? That in theory they could choose a different member of the Quorum? 

I certainly hope not.  We aren't Catholics where the Cardinals vote for the new pope. There's not a special chimney in the Salt Lake Temple.

 D&C states the prophet can name a successor and barring that senior apostle precedent dates back to the days of Brigham Young.  President Monson could have bypassed President Nelson, but the Quorum of the Twelve are there to sustain, not vote.

Scripture also states that President of the Church is sustained by common consent. That doesn't give the membership the right to vote for a different President either.

This isn't conclave.  President Nelson was chosen by God as soon as President Monson died.  The setting apart to the Church office doesn't change the priesthood mantle he just inherited.

[Scott Lloyd]

44 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I certainly hope not.  We aren't Catholics where the Cardinals vote for the new pope. There's not a special chimney in the Salt Lake Temple.

 D&C states the prophet can name a successor and barring that senior apostle precedent dates back to the days of Brigham Young.  President Monson could have bypassed President Nelson, but the Quorum of the Twelve are there to sustain, not vote.

Scripture also states that President of the Church is sustained by common consent. That doesn't give the membership the right to vote for a different President either.

This isn't conclave.  President Nelson was chosen by God as soon as President Monson died.  The setting apart to the Church office doesn't change the priesthood mantle he just inherited.

Well, while I can’t conceive of it ever happening, if it did, presumably it would be done under revelation received collectively by the Quorum members. 

And come to think of it, I can conceive of a possible scenario. Suppose the senior member at some point is altogether incopacitated and thus unable to respond to the call. Wouldn’t that necessitate selecting one of the other members?

[CMZ]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Haven’t we always been taught, though, that it is according to “tradition” that the senior member of the Twelve is appointed by that body as Church president? That in theory they could choose a different member of the Quorum? 

It's more than tradition. It is the system that the Lord has set up that the person who has been in the Quorum of the Twelve the longest becomes the prophet.

[CMZ]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well, while I can’t conceive of it ever happening, if it did, presumably it would be done under revelation received collectively by the Quorum members. 

And come to think of it, I can conceive of a possible scenario. Suppose the senior member at some point is altogether incapacitated and thus unable to respond to the call. Wouldn’t that necessitate selecting one of the other members?

I remember being at some meeting that Brad Wilcox (I don't care if you think he's a doctrinal authority because he actually makes a good point here) was speaking at and he talked about how every time a Church president dies there are people who say, "Well, who's the next prophet going to be? Maybe this time it could be someone other than the senior apostle on earth." But he pointed out that being the senior apostle on earth entitles that person to receive revelation for the whole Church. Ergo... if the Lord had in mind that the next prophet was going to be someone other than the senior apostle on earth then the senior apostle on earth would have to receive revelation that the next prophet would be someone other than himself... and that doesn't make sense. Anyways, a lot of these questions go away when we realize that the Lord has set up a system purposely so that there would NOT be confusion on this issue. The Lord doesn't guide the callings to the Quorum of the Twelve and the departures from mortality of its members and guide someone to become the senior apostle on earth only to then say, "Oh, wait... it's actually supposed to be someone else now." And incapacitation? Maybe the Lord is also guiding things so that no totally incapacitated person ever rises to become the senior apostle on earth? Seems like so far there has not been a problem. Old and feeble men? Yes. But no instances ever of someone getting to that point and being entirely incapacitated.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

They're being punished.
 No starting threads, limited responses/per day, and no likes.  I don't think they can like posts either.

It is included in the all expenses paid, free limitation package!

Edited January 5, 2018 by Calm

[The Nehor]

On 1/5/2018 at 12:28 AM, CMZ said:

It's more than tradition. It is the system that the Lord has set up that the person who has been in the Quorum of the Twelve the longest becomes the prophet.

Actually that exact definition dates back to President Snow I believe. Before that it was the longest serving Apostle and they clarified it as an Apostle outside the Quorum had a good chance of being senior.

I know of no revelation commanding the current practice. For any change I would expect the whole Quorum would have to agree but it could be done.

Edited January 8, 2018 by The Nehor

[Rain]

On 1/4/2018 at 5:17 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Haven’t we always been taught, though, that it is according to “tradition” that the senior member of the Twelve is appointed by that body as Church president? That in theory they could choose a different member of the Quorum? 

I've never heard it as tradition.  I remember though from my youth understanding it to be a matter of prayer and revelation of those who are left.  I don't know if my understanding was wrong or if I was really taught that.  Somewhere along the lines earlier rather than later my understanding changed.  

[Glenn101]

This may be one of the "Unwritten Order of Things" which Boyd K. Packer spoke of in a BYU Devotional in 1996.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Actually that exact definition dates back to President Snow I believe. Before that it was the longest serving Apostle and they clarified it as an Apostle outside the Quorum has a good chance of being senior.

I know of no revelation commanding the current practice. For any change I would expect the whole Quorum would have to agree but it could be done.

I wonder what odds the Las Vegas oddsmakers are making that it will be someone else.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I've never heard it as tradition.  I remember though from my youth understanding it to be a matter of prayer and revelation of those who are left.  I don't know if my understanding was wrong or if I was really taught that.  Somewhere along the lines earlier rather than later my understanding changed.  

 My issue with it is that it runs contrary to established priesthood principles.

The body doesn't choose the head.  Callings are top down.  That's a universal priesthood practice, all the way from Deacons to the Godhead.  Quorums sustain their president but that president is called by a higher office than the quorum members.

The twelve don't vote for the next President of the Church.  God chooses (and has established the seniority rule unless the current President names a different successor).  All the 12 have to do is sustain.

Apostles have tried to bypass the President/Prophet before unsuccessfully and wound up excommunicated.

Edited January 7, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Actually that exact definition dates back to President Snow I believe. Before that it was the longest serving Apostle and they clarified it as an Apostle outside the Quorum has a good chance of being senior.

I know of no revelation commanding the current practice. For any change I would expect the whole Quorum would have to agree but it could be done.

It's not the longest serving Apostle, if I take your meaning correctly.  Orson Hyde apostatized briefly, but was readmitted to the Quorum. Originally he was 5th in seniority and would have been President of the Quorum of the Twelve when Brigham Young died, but Pres. Young ruled that the interruption in service placed him further back in seniority, with his readmission date as his seniority date, not the date he was originally called. So John Taylor was the 3rd President of the Church instead of Orson Hyde.