Pres. Monson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! drat

[Bobbieaware]

15 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Yes, there is him, but there have been counselors in the First Presidency who never received the ordination of apostle. One example was Thorpe B. Isaacson, who served in the First Presidency at the same time as Alvin R. Dyer.

Those who were not first ordained apostles were still ordained prophets, seers and revelators, making them, for all intents and purposes, de facto apostles, with all the same presiding authority as long as the Presidency exists and they are not released. I find it comforting that rank and file High Priests have been called into the First Presidency because such out-of-the-blue ordinations strike at the heart of the notion of an exclusive leadership elite.

[RevTestament]

I wish to offer my condolences to his family. Pres. Monson inspired me greatly, especially when I first joined the Church. Soon he will be with his beloved wife in heaven. I have such fond memories of Pres. Monson. May his family have peace.

[blueglass]

12 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

 

After the First Presidency is organised, presuming the new prophet calls two of the Quorum as his counselors, the Quorum will be down to 10, and will be considered as having two vacancies. Which, I imagine, will probably be filled fairly soon.

I hope this helps.

The prophet could call more counselors in the first presidency if he wants.  David o McKay called 5 counselors to serve.

[hope_for_things]

11 hours ago, CMZ said:

Yes, there is him, but there have been counselors in the First Presidency who never received the ordination of apostle. One example was Thorpe B. Isaacson, who served in the First Presidency at the same time as Alvin R. Dyer.

There are also those who were ordained as apostles but who were never sustained as formal members of the quorum of the twelve apostles (twelve being the title of the quorum rather than a distinct number always adhered to).  Daniel H. Wells was even set apart as counselor to the quorum of the twelve from 1877 - 1891, but still never was a member of that quorum, but he was an ordained apostle.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_H._Wells

 

Edited January 4, 2018 by hope_for_things

[Rain]

A year or two before he became president of the church my daughter and I were waiting in a line for a viewing. He walked by and stopped to talk with us.  He said a few words to me,  but spent most of the time talking to her. She was about 8 or 9 at the time.  He asked her about school and a number of things. 

As we talked there I understood he was most likely to be our next prophet and I thought on how he was following the example of the Savior and talking with the children. 

When he was sustained I felt it so strongly that he was there because he understood how the Saviour would want him to lead. That he truly knew how to walk in his footsteps. 

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

A year or two before he became president of the church my daughter and I were waiting in a line for a viewing. 

A little premature don't you think? 

[Avatar4321]

9 hours ago, CMZ said:

To me too since being a prophet is not a position in the church, but rather a characteristic of being a faithful member with a revealed testimony of Jesus Christ. But I guess when they say that a particular person was "ordained a prophet" that it might be shorthand, or slightly different wording, for saying, in essence, "set apart as president of the Church." At least that's what I'm telling myself.

I would assume so as well. After all he has been a prophet seer and revelator for years

[Scott Lloyd]

19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Which is interesting in light of D&C 124 and the Patriarch vs Apostle history as discussed in "Lost Legacy".

• D&C 124:123 Verily I say unto you, I now give unto you the officers belonging to my Priesthood, that ye may hold the keys thereof, even the Priesthood which is after the order of Melchizedek, which is after the order of mine Only Begotten Son.
  124 First, I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you.
  125 I give unto you my servant Joseph to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and prophet.
  126 I give unto him for counselors my servant Sidney Rigdon and my servant William Law, that these may constitute a quorum and First Presidency, to receive the oracles for the whole church.

There have been those in time past who feel based on these verses that the Patriarch to the Church (when we had one) is a higher office than Presiding Elder (President).
Having the Patriarch set apart the President would lend credence to that theory.

This would seem to be negated by the fact that the last Patriarch to the Church, Eldred G. Smith, was put on emeritus status under the presidency of Spencer W. Kimball and his office was thus rendered inactive for the rest of his life (he lived to be well over 100). 

[clarkgoble]

9 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Those who were so ordained were ordained apostles before being formally set apart to serve in the First Presidency. I say they were ordained apostles but not apostles who were members of the Quorum of the Twelve. Look up Alvin R Dyer on Wikipedia to see an example of this. 

There were also High Priests who were part of the First Presidency. Thorpe B. Issacson was the last I believe. I don't know exactly how he was set apart though. There's also cases of Apostles who aren't in the quorum or the first presidency - Alvin Dyer infamously being the last example. (He was wrapped up in Moyle's baseball baptism problems, the overbuilding of meetinghouses that put the Church in financial straits requiring calling Elder Tanner to come in and clean up the Church's finances)

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When the office of Patriarch to the Church was operative in the Church (which it hasn’t been for many years) the holder of that office was the only man other than the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve who was sustained in general conference as a prophet, seer and revelator. 

Yes, that was mentioned earlier.

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

President of the Church is an apostolic office. Always has been. 

President Monson remained an apostle of Jesus Christ throughout the time he was Church president. 

This came up last night as I was proofreading a news story. It said President Monson had been an apostle for x number of years. I changed it to read that he had been a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for that length of time. I knew he hadn’t ceased to be an apostle when he became Church president. 

Yes, the president himself will always hold the ordination of apostle, but the counselors just have to be high priests. The D&C refers to the First Presidency as "three presiding high priests," so in that sense the president only needs to be a high priest. But there's also the fact that he couldn't get to the position of being president of the church without also having been ordained an apostle and rising through the ranks of the Quorum of the Twelve.

I'm pretty sure I remember President Monson saying around October 2013 (going on six years of having been president of the Church) that he had then been an apostle for 50 years. But, yeah, I think some people think that somehow in some way when a man becomes president of the Church that he is no longer "an apostle."

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Those who were not first ordained apostles were still ordained prophets, seers and revelators, making them, for all intents and purposes, de facto apostles, with all the same presiding authority as long as the Presidency exists and they are not released.

Well, uh, kind of.

[CMZ]

4 hours ago, blueglass said:

The prophet could call more counselors in the first presidency if he wants.  David o McKay called 5 counselors to serve.

Yep, it's  generally supposed to just be two counselors but the provision remains for there to be more, and there have been a few instances of that in this dispensation.

 

Quote

D&C 107:22

Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

 

[CMZ]

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

There are also those who've were ordained as apostles but who were never sustained as formal members of the quorum of the twelve apostles (twelve being the title of the quorum rather than a distinct number always adhered to).  Daniel H. Wells was even set apart as counselor to the quorum of the twelve from 1877 - 1891, but still never was a member of that quorum, but he was an ordained apostle.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_H._Wells

 

Yes, and a somewhat similar example is Sylvester Q. Cannon being ordained an apostle and being sustained as a counselor to the quorum and then a short time later was actually made part of the quorum. So, yes, a number of interesting things have occurred.

[JLHPROF]

Random question.   If President Nelson were to pass away between now and the official setting apart as President of the Church would he still be considered a successor to the previous Church Presidents?

In Church History successors are considered to hold the keys of priesthood (the mantle if you will)  upon the death of the prophet.  Some
The setting apart is specific to the Church office.  Sometimes it has been years from the death of the prophet to the reformation of the First Presidency, and those men are still considered successors.

[hope_for_things]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Random question.   If President Nelson were to pass away between now and the official setting apart as President of the Church would he still be considered a successor to the previous Church Presidents?

In Church History successors are considered to hold the keys of priesthood (the mantle if you will)  upon the death of the prophet.  Some
The setting apart is specific to the Church office.  Sometimes it has been years from the death of the prophet to the reformation of the First Presidency, and those men are still considered successors.

Its an interesting question.  I would personally say no, if he died before being officially set apart and sustained in general conference, he is not the 17th president of the church, so let it be written, so let it be done! 

 

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Random question.   If President Nelson were to pass away between now and the official setting apart as President of the Church would he still be considered a successor to the previous Church Presidents?

You mean have his picture cemented on the website as one of the past presidents, or hallway walls lined with pictures of the presidents one would have to include his to be complete?  I'd hope so.  Might as well add more to the list for funnies at least.  Then B Lee and Hunter won't have to worry about the shortest stints at the helm.  
He could at least be a trivia question, then, for Mormon trivia games.  

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

In Church History successors are considered to hold the keys of priesthood (the mantle if you will)  upon the death of the prophet.  Some

The setting apart is specific to the Church office.  Sometimes it has been years from the death of the prophet to the reformation of the First Presidency, and those men are still considered successors.

Maybe they should just wait years until after Nelson does die and then reform it all by proxy, and then do it again with the next successor.  I'm feeling fairly confident everything would turn out the same anyway.

[CMZ]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Random question.   If President Nelson were to pass away between now and the official setting apart as President of the Church would he still be considered a successor to the previous Church Presidents?

In Church History successors are considered to hold the keys of priesthood (the mantle if you will)  upon the death of the prophet.  Some
The setting apart is specific to the Church office.  Sometimes it has been years from the death of the prophet to the reformation of the First Presidency, and those men are still considered successors.

I've always wondered that too, especially since we're in a situation now where such a thing doesn't seem too unlikely. Perhaps the Lord wouldn't allow such a situation to occur? Maybe? Maybe not?

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, CMZ said:

I've always wondered that too, especially since we're in a situation now where such a thing doesn't seem too unlikely. Perhaps the Lord wouldn't allow such a situation to occur? Maybe? Maybe not?

Has Pesident Nelson been sick?

[CMZ]

I believe in the roughly three and half years since Joseph Smith was martyred and the First Presidency was organized that Brigham Young was still viewed as being president of the Church by virtue of being head of the leading body of the Church at that time. Like... there's two ways you can be "President of the Church:"

1. By being president of the First Presidency when it is organized
2. By being president of the Quorum of the Twelve when no First Presidency exists above it

[CMZ]

49 minutes ago, Rain said:

Has President Nelson been sick?

Not that I know of. Just 93. So, he appears to be in great health for his advanced age, but he is still at an advanced age. Wishing him years of health and productivity.

Edited January 4, 2018 by CMZ

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Its an interesting question.  I would personally say no, if he died before being officially set apart and sustained in general conference, he is not the 17th president of the church, so let it be written, so let it be done! 

 

Yes, not the President of the Church.
But is he not still the successor as the one man holding the full keys of priesthood.  

I know we teach that the Apostles all hold them together, scripture is clear on the shared authority.
But the senior is the one man authorized to exercise all the keys and receive revelation for the Church.  And that is just as true before the setting apart as after.

As in:

• And as the last heartbeat of President Lee ceased, the mantle of leadership passed to President Kimball, whose next heartbeat was that of the living oracle and presiding authority of God on earth. From that moment the Church continued under the direction of President Kimball. - Bruce R. McConkie https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_succession-presidency/

As the last heartbeat of President Monson ceased President Nelson became the living oracle, the one man of D&C 132.  That makes him a successor, regardless of the First Presidency status.

[hope_for_things]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, not the President of the Church.
But is he not still the successor as the one man holding the full keys of priesthood.  

I know we teach that the Apostles all hold them together, scripture is clear on the shared authority.
But the senior is the one man authorized to exercise all the keys and receive revelation for the Church.  And that is just as true before the setting apart as after.

As in:

• And as the last heartbeat of President Lee ceased, the mantle of leadership passed to President Kimball, whose next heartbeat was that of the living oracle and presiding authority of God on earth. From that moment the Church continued under the direction of President Kimball. - Bruce R. McConkie https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/bruce-r-mcconkie_succession-presidency/

As the last heartbeat of President Monson ceased President Nelson became the living oracle, the one man of D&C 132.  That makes him a successor, regardless of the First Presidency status.

Learned something new today, I didn't know that.  Apparently correlated LDS manuals agree with this assessment as well.  See the link below: 

Quote

Explain that when Joseph Smith died, the senior Apostle (Brigham Young) was immediately able to exercise all of the keys of the priesthood.

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-7/lesson-146-succession-in-the-presidency?lang=eng

So I guess Nelson should be considered Monson's successor already, that happened immediately upon his death, only he hasn't been set apart in the office of President yet, which actually according to the authors of this lesson manual sounds more like a formality than anything else.  Very interesting.  

[kiwi57]

2 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Learned something new today, I didn't know that.  Apparently correlated LDS manuals agree with this assessment as well.  See the link below: 

https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-7/lesson-146-succession-in-the-presidency?lang=eng

So I guess Nelson should be considered Monson's successor already, that happened immediately upon his death, only he hasn't been set apart in the office of President yet, which actually according to the authors of this lesson manual sounds more like a formality than anything else.  Very interesting.  

I don't think reorganizing the First Presidency is just a formality.

[CMZ]

35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As the last heartbeat of President Monson ceased President Nelson became the living oracle, the one man of D&C 132.  That makes him a successor, regardless of the First Presidency status.

Exactly.

Edited January 4, 2018 by CMZ