Understanding Adam-God

[Benjamin Seeker]

12 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe that to be the case.
I don't think Joseph had the full information on Adam-God.  I think he definitely taught things contrary to Adam-God prior to the restoration of temple ordinances and was just coming to the beginning of understanding the doctrine prior to his death.  I think that the KFD was one of the first inclinations he expressed towards Adam-God and likely one of the primary influences on Brigham's exposition of the doctrine.  Joseph from 1830-1842 would have no reason to agree with Brigham.  From 1842-1844 his doctrine was undergoing constant expansion, revelation, and revision.

When it comes to Adam-God we simply don't know what Joseph's thoughts on the full doctrine taught by Brigham would have been.  We can only speculate based on the progression and path his thinking and teachings were following.

I agree that there is a lot of mystery and unknown to it all. However, I've cited quotes from 1843 and 1844 that show JS was on a different track then Brigham.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Benjamin Seeker

[CMZ]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

"through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth."

Matthew 3:17, 3 Nephi 11:7, JS-H 1:17.

Yep, that works.

And in that last quote there are 4 distinct beings, not 3.  Adam did not receive his dispensational keys from a premortal Christ.  A spirit cannot ordain.  He received them from the Lord (Yaweh), a resurrected God.  He presides over the entire human family, of which Christ is part. Then at Adam-Ondi-Ahman all dispensations will be given to Father Adam AFTER which he will bestow that inheritance on his son Christ but maintain his position as head of this human family.

 

I didn't say there weren't more than three.

[pogi]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

"through whom Christ has been revealed from heaven, and will continue to be revealed from henceforth."

Matthew 3:17, 3 Nephi 11:7, JS-H 1:17.

Yep, that works.

And in that last quote there are 4 distinct beings, not 3.  Adam did not receive his dispensational keys from a premortal Christ.  A spirit cannot ordain.  He received them from the Lord (Yaweh), a resurrected God.  He presides over the entire human family, of which Christ is part. Then at Adam-Ondi-Ahman all dispensations will be given to Father Adam AFTER which he will bestow that inheritance on his son Christ but maintain his position as head of this human family.

 

That is not how Joseph explained what will happen at Adam-Ondi-Ahman.  Joseph did not state that Adam would give his "inheritance" to Christ, rather he said that he would deliver up his "stewardship" to Christ.  Big difference!

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Joseph Smith 

Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.157)

 

This is how Joseph Fielding Smith explained it:

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This council in the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman is to be of the greatest importance to this world. At that time there will be a transfer of authority from the usurper and impostor, Lucifer, to the rightful King, Jesus Christ. Judgment will be set and all who have held keys will make their reports and deliver their stewardships, as they shall be required. Adam will direct this judgment, and then he will make his report, as the one holding the keys for this earth, to his Superior Officer, Jesus Christ. Our Lord will then assume the reins of government; directions will be given to the Priesthood; and He, whose right it is to rule, will be installed officially by the voice of the Priesthood there assembled. This grand council of Priesthood will be composed, not only of those who are faithful who now dwell on this earth, but also of the prophets and apostles of old, who have had directing authority. Others may also be there, but if so they will be there by appointment, for this is to be an official council called to attend to the most momentous matters ' concerning the destiny of this earth. (The Way to Perfection, p.289-291)

It is also interesting to note the phrase "Adam-Ondi-Ahman".  This phrase is further evidence that Adam and God are two distinct beings. The phrase is in the Adamic language, which contains two distinct names.  Adam and Ahman or Awmen.  Ahman or Awmen being the name of God the Father in the Adamic tongue according to the revelations of Joseph Smith.  If Ahman is the name of the Father in the Adamic tongue, and Adam is the name of Adam in the Adamic tongue, then they are not the same person. 

Here is evidence of the use of the word Ahman or Awmen as the name of God the Father, and Son Ahman being Jesus Christ. 

Quote

Sample of Pure Language, between circa 4 and circa 20 March 1832
A Sample of pure Language given by Joseph the Seer as copied by Br Johnson71
Question    What is the name of God in pure Language
Answer    Awmen.
Q    The meaning of the pure word A[w]men
A    It is the being which made all things in all its parts.
Q    What is the name of the Son of God.
A    The Son72 Awmen.
Q    What is the Son Awmen.
A    It is the greatest of all the parts of Awmen which is the Godhead the first born.
Q    What is is man.
A    This signifies Sons Awmen. the human family the children of men the greatest parts of Awmen Sons the Son Awmen
Q    What are Angels called in pure language.
A    Awmen Angls-men
Q    What are the meaning of these words.
A    Awmen’s Ministerring servants Sanctified who are sent forth from heaven to minister for or to Sons Awmen the greatest part of Awmen Son. Sons Awmen Son Awmen Awmen
[p. 144]

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-book-1/132

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D&C 117
Is there not room enough upon the mountains of Adam Ondi Awmen [Ahman], and upon the plains of Olah[a] Shinehah, or in the land where Adam dwelt;5 that you should not covet that which is but the drop, and neglect the more weighty matters,[?] Therefore come up hither unto the Land of my people, even Zion,
http://signaturebookslibrary.org/the-joseph-smith-revelations-08/

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Wherefore, do the things which I have commanded you, saith your Redeemer, even the Son Ahman, who prepareth all things before he taketh you (D&C 78:20)

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And let the higher part of the inner court be dedicated unto me for the school of mine apostles, saith Son Ahman; or, in other words, Alphus; or, in other words, Omegus; even Jesus Christ your Lord. Amen (D&C 95:17).

Adam-Ondi-Ahman is the place where God the Father appeared to Adam and his descendants after Adam blessed his posterity.  That is why Adam-Ondi-Ahman is sometimes translated "Adam with Ahman (God)", or "valley of Ahman (God) where Adam dwelt." 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, CMZ said:

I didn't say there weren't more than three.

Sorry, I misunderstood where you wrote "In this quote at least Adam, Christ, and the Father are three distinct beings".

The quote in question is actually fascinating.

"This, then, is the nature of the Priesthood; every man holding the Presidency of his dispensation, and one man holding the Presidency of them all, even Adam; and Adam receiving his Presidency and authority from the Lord, but cannot receive a fullness until Christ shall present the Kingdom to the Father, which shall be at the end of the last dispensation." 

It's all about how we understand this quote.
The Church today would say

• Adam holds Presidency over all dispensations and receives his presidency from the Lord who is Christ
• Christ presents the kingdom to the Father
• Adam then receives the fulness from Christ and the Father

Under Brigham's Adam-God it would look more like

• Adam holds the Presidency over all dispensations
• Adam received his Presidency from the Lord who is Jehovah (not Christ)
• Adam receives the fulness when Christ presents the Kingdom to him as the Father and he in turn presents it to his father, Jehovah.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

That is not how Joseph explained what will happen at Adam-Ondi-Ahman.  Joseph did not state that Adam would give his "inheritance" to Christ, rather he said that he would deliver up his "stewardship" to Christ.  Big difference!

Quote

 

Daniel in his seventh chapter speaks of the Ancient of days; he means the oldest man, our Father Adam, Michael, he will call his children together and hold a council with them to prepare them for the coming of the Son of Man. He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men, and all that have had the keys must stand before him in this grand council. This may take place before some of us leave this stage of action. The Son of Man stands before him, and there is given him glory and dominion. Adam delivers up his stewardship to Christ, that which was delivered to him as holding the keys of the universe, but retains his standing as head of the human family. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.157)

 

 

Same thing. 
The Son of Man stands before Adam and is given glory and dominion.  In other words, the earth is Adam's and he gives it to Christ but retains his presidency.
Adam's stewardship is the entire earth/human family.  When he delivers it to Christ, his son, it is no different than an inheritance.  He is giving his stewardship as an inheritance to his son.
Yet he retains his standing as head.  That is why we say Christ purchased us with his blood.
Jehovah gives Michael/Adam an earth for his posterity.  Adam's firstborn son Christ inherits everything Adam has and becomes the new father as described in the Book of Mormon.
Christ is now a Jehovah and as the temple tells us, we are all his Adams and Eves.  And the chain continues.
 

Quote

Here is evidence of the use of the word Ahman or Awmen as the name of God the Father, and Son Ahman being Jesus Christ. 

Adam-Ondi-Ahman is the place where God the Father appeared to Adam and his descendants after Adam blessed his posterity.  That is why Adam-Ondi-Ahman is sometimes translated "Adam with Ahman (God)", or "valley of Ahman (God) where Adam dwelt." 

It is the meaning of "ondi" that is the kicker.
Adam means man, Ahman means God.  You say ondi means "with".  I have heard it said that ondi means "is called".  The place where Adam/Man is called Ahman/God.
 

[co-eternal]

Quote

 

"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revleaed to me – namely that Adam is our father and God – I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who cold tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, v. 22, no. 308, June 8, 1873;

 

Joseph taught Brigham..

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"This brings to my mind the vision that Joseph Smith had, when he saw Adam open the gate of the Celestial City and admit the people one by one. He then saw Father Adam conduct them to the throne one by one, when they were crowned Kings and Priests of God. I merely bring this up to impress upon your mind the principles of order, but it will nevertheless apply to every member of the Church."

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 40

 

Joseph taught Heber.

"At meeting of school of the prophets, President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel and he was the father of Jesus Christ and was our God, and Joseph taught this principle."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, December 16, 1867

Quote

 

"At meeting of school of the prophets, President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel and he was the father of Jesus Christ and was our God, and Joseph taught this principle."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, December 16, 1867

 

Joseph taught what Brigham taught.

Remarkable that Joseph taught what he did not yet know? I think not. I think he knew it all, he was the one chosen from the foundations of the world to reveal it. And if you know his identity, you would know that he knew it all, it is his calling to reveal it.

[co-eternal]

And there is more:

Joseph Smith
“I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to
me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.” (TPJS, pg. 305)
“Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the Kingdom of God, I do not know that you would rise
up and kill me…” (As recalled by Parley P. Pratt in MS 55:585)
“If I was to show the Latter-day Saints all the revelations that the Lord has shown unto me, there is
scarce a man that would stay with me, they could not bear it” (MS 13:257)
“The design of the great God in sending us into this world, and organizing us to prepare us for the
eternal worlds, I shall keep in my own bosom at present.” (HC 5:403. Also see TPJS pg. 30)
“People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until they see me
weighted in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, see me as I am. I
dare not tell them, and they do not know me.” (Zebedee Coltrin quoting Joseph Smith. See Joseph
Smith; The Prophet, The Man pg. 28)
“Brother Brigham, if I was to reveal to this people what the Lord has revealed to me, there is not a
man or woman [that] would stay with me.” (Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith. JD 9:294)
“If I were to reveal the things that God has revealed to me, if I were to reveal to this people the doctrines
that I know are for their exaltation, these men would spill my blood.” (George A. Smith quoting Joseph
Smith. JD 2:217)
“I have asked the Lord to take me away. I have to seal my testimony to this generation with my blood. I
have to do it for this work will never progress until I am gone for the testimony is of no force until the
testator is dead. People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until
they see me weighed in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, and see
me as I am. I dare not tell them and they do not know me.” (Joseph Smith as quoted by Mary Elizabeth
Rollins Lightner, Plural wife of the Prophet, BYU, 1905)
“‘Many men,’ said he, ‘will say, I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times’, but the
moment you teach them some of the mysteries of the kingdom of God that are retained in the heavens, and
are prepared for them, they will be the first to stone you and put you to death. It was this same principle
that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, and will cause the people to kill the prophets in this generation. Would
to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you
would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life.” (Joseph
Smith, Jr., as quoted by Heber C. Kimball, Life of Heber C. Kimball, by Orson F. Whitney, pg. 322-323)
“But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation it has been like
splitting hemlock knots with a corn doger for a wedge & a pumpkin for a beetle, Even [sic] the Saints are
slow to understand I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to
receive the things of God, but we frequently see some of them after suffering all they have for the
work of God will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions,
they cannot stand the fire at all, How [sic] many will be able to abide a Celestial law & go through &
receive their exaltation I am unable to say but many are called & few are chosen.” (The Words of Joseph
Smith, pg. 319)
“If I should reveal the things that God has revealed to me, there are some on this stand that would
cut my throat or take my hearts blood.” (Joseph Robinson Quoting Joseph Smith. See Joseph Smith; The
Prophet, The Man pg. 28)
“The Lord deals with this people as a tender parent with a child, communicating light and intelligence and
the knowledge of his ways as they can bear it.” (HC 5:402)
“If a man gets the fullness of God he has to get [it] in the same way that Jesus obtain[ed] it & that was
by keeping all the ordinances of the house of the Lord. Men will say I will never forsake you but will stand
by you at all times but the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of God that are retained in
the heavens and are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared, They will be the
first to stone you & put you to death” (The Words of Joseph Smith, pg. 213)
“Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the nighttime. And
by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels
came down and ministered unto me. And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away
upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for
man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.” (2 Nephi 4:23-25)
“I will from time to time reveal to you the subjects that are revealed by the Holy Ghost to me.” (HC
6:366)
“And no tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man, neither can the hearts of men
conceive so great and marvelous things as we both saw and heard Jesus speak; and no one can
conceive of the joy which filled our souls at the time we heard him pray for us unto the Father.” (3 Nephi
17:17)
“But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed
unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; Which he commanded
us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is
man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the
Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he
grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; That through the power and manifestation of
the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.” (D&C 76:114-
118)
“And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith,
and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest
unto them. And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld
from them, unto their condemnation. Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon
the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.” (3 Nephi 26:9-
11)
“God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost,
that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious
expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in
reserve for the fullness of their glory; A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether
there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.” (D&C 121:26-28)
“Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the
knowledge of truth.” (D&C 50:40)
“Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never
were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me
that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof;
wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord. For the Lord said
unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their
iniquity, and become clean before the Lord. And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the
Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto
them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations,
saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them
are.” (Ether 4:4-7)
“The people cannot bear the revelations that the Lord has for them. There were a great many
revelations if the people could bear them.” (Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith. JD 18: 242)
“But I beg leave to say unto you, brethren, that ignorance, superstition and bigotry placing itself
where it ought not, is oftentimes in the way of the prosperity of this Church; like the torrent of rain
from the mountains, that floods the most pure and crystal stream with mire, and dirt, and filthiness, and
obscures everything that was clear before, and all rushes along in one general deluge; but time weathers
tide; and notwithstanding we are rolled in the mire of the flood for the time being, the next surge
peradventure, as time rolls on, may bring to us the fountain as clear as crystal, and as pure as snow;
while the filthiness, flood wood and rubbish is left and purged out by the way.” (HC 3:296-297)
“It is my meditation all the day & more than my meat & drink to know how I shall make the saints of
God to comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge, before my mind. O how I would
delight to bring before you things which you never thought of, but poverty & the cares of the world
prevent. but [sic] I am glad I have the privilige of communicating to you some things, which if
grasped closely will be a help to you when the clouds are gathering & the storms are ready to burst upon
you like peals of thunder. lay [sic] hold of these things & let not your knees tremble. nor [sic] your
hearts faint.” (The Words of Joseph Smith pg. 196)
“I will also remark that I am sensible that no man can speak to a congregation of people upon any
subject, only according to the intelligence that is in the people. There are quite a number of this
congregation who knew Joseph Smith the Prophet, and he used to say in Nauvoo that when he came before
the people he felt as though he were enclosed in an iron case, his mind was closed by the influences that
were thrown around him; he was curtailed in his wishes and desires to do good; there was no room for him
to expand, hence he could not make use of the revelations of God as he would have done; there was no
room in the hearts of the people to receive the glorious truths of the Gospel that God revealed to
him.” (JD 10:233-234. Heber C. Kimball talking about Joseph Smith.)
“I never have had opportunity to give them the plan that God has revealed to me.” (The Personal
Writings of Joseph Smith, March 15, 1839, pg. 386-387)
“Without a revelation, I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of Heaven.” (HC 6:475)
“Would to God that I had forty days and nights in which to tell you all!” (HC 6: 313)
“You don't know me; you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall
never undertake it.” (HC 6: 317)
“I wish I could speak for three or four hours… I would still go on, and show you proof upon proofs.”
(HC 6:479)
“Some people say I am a fallen Prophet, because I do not bring forth more of the word of the Lord. Why
did I not do it? Are we able to receive it? No! not one in this room.” (HC 4:478)
Brigham Young
“But I would not dare tell you all I know about these matters.” (JD 8:208)
“I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be
nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told
you the truth as far as I have gone.” (JD 1:50-51)
“The life that is within us is a part of an eternity of life, and is organized spirit, which is clothed upon by
tabernacles, thereby constituting our present being, which is designed for the attainment of further
intelligence. The matter composing our bodies and spirits has been organized from the eternity of matter
that fills immensity. Were I to fully speak what I know and understand concerning myself and others,
you might think me to be infringing. I shall therefore omit some things that I would otherwise say to
you if the people were prepared to receive them.” (JD 7: 285)
“It is said to be eternal life, ‘to know the only wise God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.’ I will tell you
one thing, as brother Hyde has said, it would be an excellent plan for us to go to work and find out
ourselves, for as sure as you find out yourselves, you will find out God, whether you are Saint or sinner.
A man cannot find out himself without the light of revelation; he has to turn round and seek to the Lord his
God, in order to find out himself. If you find out who Joseph was, you will know as much about God as
you need to at present; for if He said, ‘I am a God to this people,’ He did not say that He was the only
wise God. Jesus was a God to the people when he was upon earth, was so before he came to this earth,
and is yet. Moses was a God to the children of Israel, and in this manner you may go right back to
Father Adam.” (JD 4:271)
“I will now say to my brethren and sisters, that while we were in Winter Quarters, the Lord gave to me a
revelation just as much as he ever gave one to anybody. He opened my mind, and showed me the
organization of the kingdom of God in a family capacity. I talked it to my brethren; I would throw it
out a few words here, and a few words there, to my first counselor, to my second counselor and the
Twelve Apostles, but with the exception of one or two of the Twelve, it would not touch a man.
They believed it would come, O yes, but it would be by and by. Says I, ‘Why not now?’ If I had been worth
millions when we came into this valley and built what we now call the ‘Old Fort,’ I would have given it if
the people had been prepared to then receive the kingdom of God according to the pattern given to
Enoch. But I could not touch them.” (JD 18:244)
“You need exhorting rather than teaching. You have been taught doctrine in abundance, and I have
sometimes thought it a pity the Lord has revealed quite as much as he has. And I can truly say that I
believe, if I am guilty in any one point in my walk before this people, it is in telling them things they
are not worthy of—that I have given unto them things that they could not receive. For this reason I
deem it mainly needful to stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance.” (JD 7: 238)
“There are other revelations, besides this (meaning the one on war), not yet published to the world.
In the due time of the Lord, the Saints and the world will be privileged with the revelations that are
due them. They now have many more than they are worthy of, for they do not observe them. The
Gentile nations have had more of the revelations of God than is their just due. And I will say, as I have
before said, if guilt before my God and my brethren rests upon me in the least, it is in this one thing --
that I have revealed too much concerning God and His Kingdom, and the designs of our Father in
heaven. If my skirts are stained in the least with wrong, it is because I have been too free in telling
what God is, how he lives, the nature of his providences and designs in creating the world, in
bringing forth the human family on the earth, his designs concerning them, etc. If I had, like Paul,
said—‘But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant,’ perhaps it would have been better for the
people... when a truth is presented to an intelligent person he ought to grasp it and receive it in his
faith. There are revelations, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding yet to be proclaimed, and
whether they will please the world, or not, is immaterial to me.” (Deseret News, June 27, 1860; JD
8:58-59)
“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which
I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me -- namely that Adam is our father and God… I told the
people that if they would not believe the revelations that God had given he would suffer the devil to
give revelations that they -- priests and people -- would follow after… Have I seen this fulfilled? I
have. I told the people that as true as God lived. If they would not have truth they would have error
sent unto them, and they would believe it. What is the mystery of it?” (Deseret Weekly News 22:308-
309, June 18, 1873)

Joseph knew what Brigham knew. Brigham knew  what Joseph knew. They knew the truth, one truth, the eternal truth.

[co-eternal]

Here is the key, the Rosetta stone, the decoder ring,  to understanding what Joseph and Brigham taught - with it you can know exactly what they know and taught.

Quote

David, King of Israel
“Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my
strength, and my redeemer.” (Psalms 19:14)
“Hear my prayer, O God; give ear to the words of my mouth.” (Psalms 54:2)
Joseph Smith
“The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask it from books, but to go to God in prayer, and
obtain divine teachings” (HC 4:425)
22 Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually
without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given
to reveal things which never have been revealed; (Alma 26:22.)
“Having a knowledge of God, we begin to know how to approach him, and how to ask so as to receive an
answer. When we understand the character of God, and know how to come to him, he begins to unfold
the heavens to us, and to tell us all about it. When we are ready to come to him, he is ready to come to
us.” (TPJS, pg. 349)
“If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge, that
thou mayest know the mysteries and peaceable things—that which bringeth joy, that which bringeth life
eternal.” (D&C 42:61)
“He spoke of delivering the keys of the Priesthood to the Church, and said that the faithful members of the
Relief Society should receive them with their husbands, that the Saints whose integrity has been tried and
proved faithful, might know how to ask the Lord and receive an answer;” (TPJS, pg. 226. Also see
D&C 124:94, 97)
“Therefore, if you will ask of me you shall receive; if you will knock it shall be opened unto you… And if
thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt
exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries, that thou mayest bring many to the knowledge of the
truth, yea, convince them of the error of their ways.” (D&C 6: 5, 11. Compare with 2N4:35)
Brigham Young
“The name that was given to Adam was more ancient than he was. The name Adam was given him because
he was the first man, but his new name pertained to the Holy Priesthood and, as I before stated, is more
ancient than he was. There are 4 penal signs and 4 penal tokens and should I want to address the throne
to enquire after ancient things which transpired on planets that rolled away before this planet came
into existence I should use my new name which is ancient and referred to ancient things. Should I
wish to enquire for present things I should use my own name which refers to present things. And
should I want to enquire for future things I would use the 3rd name which refers to the first token of
the Melchizedek Priesthood or is the 3rd token that is given and refers to the Son.” (28 December
1845. Brigham Young Addresses, Vol. 1 1836-1849. Edited by Elden J. Watson, pg. 87. Also see, The
Mysteries of Godliness, pg. 84-85 for additional information about this topic and references to journal
entries by William Clayton and John D. Lee regarding Brigham Young’s unique teachings about prayer.
Also compare with Job 8: 8-10; Alma 9:20; D&C 38:2; 88:41; 93:24; 130:7; Moses 1:6.)
Spencer W. Kimball
“I have always loved the story of Enos, who had great need. Like all of us—for none of us is perfect—he
had strayed. How dark were his sins I do not know, but he wrote, ‘I will tell you of the wrestle which I had
before God, before I received a remission of my sins.’ The account is graphic and his words impressive:
‘Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests …’ But he took no animals.
He was searching his soul, reaching, knocking, asking, pleading. He was being born again. He would
have lived all his life in a weed patch, but now he sought a watered garden… After a lifetime of prayers, I
know of the love and power and strength that comes from honest and heartfelt prayer. I know of the
readiness of our Father to assist us in our mortal experience, to teach us, to lead us, to guide us. Thus, with
great love, our Savior has said, ‘What I say unto one I say unto all; pray always.’ If we will do so, we shall
gain for ourselves personal knowledge that our Father in Heaven truly hears and answers prayers.
This knowledge he wants each of us to have. Seek it, my beloved brothers and sisters! Seek it!”
(Ensign, Oct. 1981 pg. 3-6)
“However, it is the sad truth that if prophets and people are unreachable, the Lord generally does nothing
for them. Having given them free agency, their Heavenly Father calls, persuades, and directs aright his
children, but waits for their up reaching hands, their solemn prayers, their sincere, dedicated approach
to him. If they are heedless, they are left floundering in midnight’s darkness when they could have the
noonday sun.” (Ensign, May, 1977 pg. 76)

 

[pogi]

On 12/4/2017 at 5:26 PM, JLHPROF said:

Yes, that is the passage.
To say much more would violate temple content rules.  But the placement of the aprons/fig leaves, the usage of figs instead of other fruit, and the description of fruit necessary to have seed are all related.
I don't think I can be any more direct.

If you mean ‘sex’, I don’t think it would be a violation of temple content rules to state such, because it is not mentioned in the temple.  

That is a very old interpretation of the “forbidden fruit”, and one that I (and the church) disagree with.  All LDS should know what the true, and only, source of “knowledge of good and evil” is and whence it comes.

[pogi]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Same thing. 
The Son of Man stands before Adam and is given glory and dominion.  In other words, the earth is Adam's and he gives it to Christ but retains his presidency.
Adam's stewardship is the entire earth/human family.  When he delivers it to Christ, his son, it is no different than an inheritance.  He is giving his stewardship as an inheritance to his son.
Yet he retains his standing as head.  That is why we say Christ purchased us with his blood.
Jehovah gives Michael/Adam an earth for his posterity.  Adam's firstborn son Christ inherits everything Adam has and becomes the new father as described in the Book of Mormon.
Christ is now a Jehovah and as the temple tells us, we are all his Adams and Eves.  And the chain continues.
 

It is the meaning of "ondi" that is the kicker.
Adam means man, Ahman means God.  You say ondi means "with".  I have heard it said that ondi means "is called".  The place where Adam/Man is called Ahman/God.
 

Adam means “man” in Hebrew (a corrupt language).  What about pure Adamic?  All we know for sure is that it is the name given to the first man.  

“Ahman” does not mean “God”.  It is revealed as the name of God, not the title God.  And man (Adam) is signified as “Sons Ahman” in revelation.

Adam Ondi Ahman contains two distinct names in the Adamic tongue, rather than two titles.  

 

[CMZ]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Sorry, I misunderstood where you wrote "In this quote at least Adam, Christ, and the Father are three distinct beings".

The quote in question is actually fascinating.

"This, then, is the nature of the Priesthood; every man holding the Presidency of his dispensation, and one man holding the Presidency of them all, even Adam; and Adam receiving his Presidency and authority from the Lord, but cannot receive a fullness until Christ shall present the Kingdom to the Father, which shall be at the end of the last dispensation." 

It's all about how we understand this quote.
The Church today would say

• Adam holds Presidency over all dispensations and receives his presidency from the Lord who is Christ
• Christ presents the kingdom to the Father
• Adam then receives the fulness from Christ and the Father

Under Brigham's Adam-God it would look more like

• Adam holds the Presidency over all dispensations
• Adam received his Presidency from the Lord who is Jehovah (not Christ)
• Adam receives the fulness when Christ presents the Kingdom to him as the Father and he in turn presents it to his father, Jehovah.

So then does that mean Joseph Smith really did understand it all? We get into all sorts of issues about how much Joseph understood, how much Brigham and others understood, about how accurate reports of certain speeches are, etc.

[co-eternal]

2 hours ago, CMZ said:

So then does that mean Joseph Smith really did understand it all? We get into all sorts of issues about how much Joseph understood, how much Brigham and others understood, about how accurate reports of certain speeches are, etc.

Yes, he did. He could handle knowing far more than any one else. He knew far more than he told. His biggest concern was to not tell too much. even to Brigham. But I suspect he told Brigham far more than Brigham ever told. And maybe John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff as well.

[co-eternal]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

If you mean ‘sex’, I don’t think it would be a violation of temple content rules to state such, because it is not mentioned in the temple.  

That is a very old interpretation of the “forbidden fruit”, and one that I (and the church) disagree with.  All LDS should know what the true, and only, source of “knowledge of good and evil” is and whence it comes.

The forbidden fruit is literally fruit. Fruit of this earth that contained the dusts of this earth. And the dusts of this earth contained the seeds of sin and death. Whem Adam and Eve came to this earth, they were immortal beings of fleash and bone. They were quickened by the spirit not blood. They knew that if they ate of the fruit of the earth, blood would form in their bodies thus becoming quickened by blood. But hey ate anyway because it was the only way for their offspring to be mortal, for their bodies to be made of the dusts of this earth. And when Adam and Eve's task was complete, they returned to their celestial home and in eating the fruits of that planet, the blood in their bodies was once again replace by a finer spirit fluid and they were quickened by the spirit.

 

 

Quote

 

Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve)

Adam had a spiritual body until mortality came upon him through the violation of the law under which he was living, but he also had a physical body of flesh and bones…. Now what is a spiritual body? It is one that is quickened by spirit and not by blood…. When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all other creatures.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76-77)

Not subject to death when he [Adam] was placed upon the earth, there had to come a change in his body through the partaking of this … fruit that brought blood into his body; and blood became the life of the body instead of spirit. And blood has in it the seeds of death, some mortal element. Mortality was created through the eating of the forbidden fruit. (Fall-Atonement-Resurrection-Sacrament, 125)

Why did Adam come here? Not subject to death when he was placed upon the earth, there had to come a change in his body through the partaking of this element--whatever you want to call it, fruit--that brought blood into his body; and blood became the life of the body instead of spirit. And blood has in it the seeds of death, some mortal element. Mortality was created through the eating of forbidden fruit, if you want to call it forbidden, but I think the Lord has made it clear that it was not forbidden. He merely said to Adam, if you want to stay here [in the garden] this is the situation. If so, don't eat it. ("The Sacrament and the Atonement," address given at the LDS institute of religion, Salt Lake City, 14 Jan. 1961, 5)

 

 

[CMZ]

10 hours ago, co-eternal said:

Yes, he did. He could handle knowing far more than any one else. He knew far more than he told. His biggest concern was to not tell too much. even to Brigham. But I suspect he told Brigham far more than Brigham ever told. And maybe John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff as well.

I was kind of asking rhetorically because some in this thread have said, "Joseph didn't really understand it fully. You have to get the clarified details from Brigham." Or, "Brigham Young took the ideas that Joseph had an incomplete understanding of and brought them to completion."

Edited December 6, 2017 by CMZ

[pogi]

10 hours ago, co-eternal said:

The forbidden fruit is literally fruit. Fruit of this earth that contained the dusts of this earth. And the dusts of this earth contained the seeds of sin and death. Whem Adam and Eve came to this earth, they were immortal beings of fleash and bone. They were quickened by the spirit not blood. They knew that if they ate of the fruit of the earth, blood would form in their bodies thus becoming quickened by blood. But hey ate anyway because it was the only way for their offspring to be mortal, for their bodies to be made of the dusts of this earth. And when Adam and Eve's task was complete, they returned to their celestial home and in eating the fruits of that planet, the blood in their bodies was once again replace by a finer spirit fluid and they were quickened by the spirit.

I am not necessarily saying that there was no literal fruit, but I am saying that it also had a symbolic element to it.  It represented something in each of our lives.  What did it represent?  otherwise we would not be able to personalize the temple ritual.  For example, the tree of life, even if it was a literal tree, represents the "love of God" as explained by Nephi. 

Now, your the rest of your theory does not hold water.  The dust of the earth does not contain the seeds of sin and death.  Adam partook of all other fruits and herbs of the garden which grew from the same dust of the earth from the same garden that the tree of knowledge grew in.  Partaking of the dust of the earth did not cause mortality, it was something else that caused mortality - but trying to figure out exactly what caused mortality would be pure speculation. 

[CMZ]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am not necessarily saying that there was no literal fruit, but I am saying that it also had a symbolic element to it.  It represented something in each of our lives.  What did it represent?  otherwise we would not be able to personalize the temple ritual.  For example, the tree of life, even if it was a literal tree, represents the "love of God" as explained by Nephi. 

Now, your the rest of your theory does not hold water.  The dust of the earth does not contain the seeds of sin and death.  Adam partook of all other fruits and herbs of the garden which grew from the same dust of the earth from the same garden that the tree of knowledge grew in.  Partaking of the dust of the earth did not cause mortality, it was something else that caused mortality - but trying to figure out exactly what caused mortality would be pure speculation. 

Yes, there's a lot to unravel but it's easy to think that some "dust" they could eat without causing a change to their bodies, while some specific "dust" or "fruit" would.

[longview]

10 hours ago, co-eternal said:

Whem Adam and Eve came to this earth, they were immortal beings of fleash and bone. They were quickened by the spirit not blood. They knew that if they ate of the fruit of the earth, blood would form in their bodies thus becoming quickened by blood. But hey ate anyway because it was the only way for their offspring to be mortal, for their bodies to be made of the dusts of this earth. And when Adam and Eve's task was complete, they returned to their celestial home and in eating the fruits of that planet, the blood in their bodies was once again replace by a finer spirit fluid and they were quickened by the spirit.

What you are saying is that Adam and Eve were already Celestial Resurrected Beings who willingly corrupted their bodies in order to birth earthly babies?  Were they Adam Senior and Eve Senior?  They were not subject to death as a result of their transformation?  Their resurrected bodies never to be divided at any point?

Were the babies Adam junior and Eve Junior?  What was the nature of their bodies?  Terrestrial or Telestial?   Who was that character that had "forgotten all and become like a little child?"  Were they commanded to multiply and replenish the earth?   Could they do so OR did they have to partake of the Forbidden Fruit in order to descend further from Terrestrial to Telestial?

[co-eternal]

Why the focus on what I said? Why is it My theory? Did you not read the quotes? Do you not know that these quotes represent the Official Chrurch Doctrine of the Garden. You can raise all the doubt and questions you want. But is True Doctrine, you can kick against the pricks or you can study it in search of a testimony of it.

Here is more:

Quote

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegrate and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 56; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

Quote

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD 6:274-275)

Quote

 

"Who begat the Son of God? Infidels say that Jesus was a *******, but let me tell you the truth concerning that matter. Our Father begat all the spirits that were, before any tabernacles were made. When our Father came into the garden, He came with His celestial body and brought one of His wives with Him and ate of the fruit of the garden until He could beget a tabernacle, and Adam is Michael or God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They eat of this fruit and formed the first tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child, it was by the Father and in no other way, in no other way, only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our elder brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852

 

Quote

 

"I think these two quotations from such a reliable authority fully solve the question as to the relationship existing between Father Adam and the Savior of t he world, and prove beyond question the power that Adam possessed in regard to taking his body again after laying it down--which power he never could have attained unless he had received first a resurrection from the grave to a condition of immortality. We further say that this power was not forfeited when as a celestial being he voluntarily partook of the forbidden fruit, and thereby rendered his body mortal in order that he might become the father of mortal tabernacles, as he was already the father of immortal spirits--thus giving opportunity to the offspring of his own begetting to pass through the ordeals necessary to prepare them for a resurrection from the dead, a celestial glory.
"All that Father Adam did upon this earth, from the time that he took up his abode in the Garden of Eden, was done for his posterity's sake and the success of his former mission as the savior of a world, and afterwards, or now, as the father of a world only added to the glory which he already possessed. If, as the savior of a world, he had the power to lay down his life and take it up again, therefore, as the father of a world which is altogether an advanced condition, we necessarily conclude that the grave was powerless to hold him after that mission was completed..."

- Elder Joseph E. Taylor, Collected Discourses, v. 1, June 2, 1888

 

Quote

 

"Conference commenced on the 6 and continued until the 11, it was heled in the new tabernacle, adjourned until the 6 of next October We had the best Conference that I ever attended during the time of the Conference President Brigham Young said that our spirits ware begotten before that Adam came to the Earth and that Adam helped to make the Earth, that he had a Celestial body when he came to the Earth and that he brought his wife or one of his wives with him, and that Eave was allso a Celestial being, that they eat of the fruit of the ground until they begat children from the Earth, he said that Adam was the onley God that we would have, and that Christ was not begotten of the Holy Gost, but of the Father Adam, that Christ, was our elder brother. The argument that he used to shoe that Christ was not begotten by the holy gost, was a caution to the Elders that when they should go to preach the Gospel, to be careful how they laid their hands on the sisters, for the reseption of the holy Gost, lest the holy Gost should get them with Child and that it would be laid to them."

- Elder Samuel H. Rodgers, Journal of Samuel H. Rodgers, v. 1, p. 179; BYU Special Collections

 

 

Quote

 

Boyd K. Packer (Quorum of the Twelve)

The word fall describes well what transpired when Adam and Eve were driven from the garden. A transformation took place which made them “a little lower than the angels.” (In the Hebrew text, the word “angel” is given as “gods,” see Ps 8:5, Heb 2:7-9.) The bodies formed for mankind became temporal or physical bodies. The scriptures say “the life of all flesh is in the blood thereof” (Lev 17:11-13; Deut 12:23; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 199-200, 367 Kimball 5-6).

After the transformation caused by the Fall, bodies of flesh and bone and blood (unlike our spirit bodies), would not endure forever. Somehow the ingredient blood carried with it a limit to life. It was as though a clock were set and a time given. Thereafter, all living things moved inexorably toward mortal or temporal death. Temporal, I repeat, means temporary. ("The Law and the Light," Book of Mormon Symposium, BYU, 30 October 1988).

 

 

Quote

 

Harold B. Lee (Quorum of the Twelve)

Adam and Eve had now exercised their agency and of their own volition had partaken of the fruit of which they were commanded not to eat,and thus they had become subject to the law of Satan.... Instead of spirit fluid, which had made them not subject to death, there had now come another element. The life of the body is the blood, and in the bloodstream there were to be found the seeds that were to bring about their mortal death. ("The Fall of Man," Lecture Given to Seminary and Institute Teachers, June 23, 1954, Brigham Young University)

 

It is not "my theory", it is the Official Doctrine, it is Eternal Truth.

[co-eternal]

55 minutes ago, longview said:

What you are saying is that Adam and Eve were already Celestial Resurrected Beings who willingly corrupted their bodies in order to birth earthly babies?  Were they Adam Senior and Eve Senior?  They were not subject to death as a result of their transformation?  Their resurrected bodies never to be divided at any point?

Were the babies Adam junior and Eve Junior?  What was the nature of their bodies?  Terrestrial or Telestial?   Who was that character that had "forgotten all and become like a little child?"  Were they commanded to multiply and replenish the earth?   Could they do so OR did they have to partake of the Forbidden Fruit in order to descend further from Terrestrial to Telestial?

Adam Jr. Eve Jr. are figments of imaginations from the Mind of Eldon Watson with no evidence in either scripture or revelation. 

Yes, Adam and Eve came to this telestial earth with Immortal Celestial bodies of flesh and bone, there bodies being quickened by a finer spirit fluid. As they partook of the fruits of this telestial earth containing the seeds of sin and death, that finer fluid was replaced by blood containing the elements of this telestial earth and the seeds of sin and death. This brought about the fall of the world, the mortality of their children, born onto a telestial earth and into a telestial world.

The offspring of Adam and Eve, begotten of Adam, birthed of Eve are Cain, Able, and many many more., all mortal.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, longview said:

What you are saying is that Adam and Eve were already Celestial Resurrected Beings who willingly corrupted their bodies in order to birth earthly babies? 

Yes.  Exactly.
Just as shown at the end of the endowment when all those of us who are considered to be Adams and Eves leave the Celestial environment with the commission to multiply and replenish the earth, remove our glory (robes) and descend from the Celestial realm back into the lone and dreary world to provide bodies for our posterity.

We are living the pattern right now.

Edited December 6, 2017 by JLHPROF

[co-eternal]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes.  Exactly.
Just as shown at the end of the endowment when all those of us who are considered to be Adams and Eves leave the Celestial environment with the commission to multiply and replenish the earth, remove our glory (robes) and descend from the Celestial realm back into the lone and dreary world to provide bodies for our posterity.

We are living the pattern right now.

And if you do further study on the pattern portrayed in the endowment, other things begin to reveal themselves. It is interesting tp me that you talk of the "Pattern" in the endowment, all this was brought to my attention through another aspect of the "patterns" in the endowment. I have said in another post, I have had questions for as long as I could remember that went unanswered. That is until one day, reading and pondering with the TV on to mask terrible tinnitus, someone on the TV said something that triggered an understanding of a pattern in the endowment. In an instant, no flasking lights, no goosebumps, no still small voice. One moment, only questions. The next recognition of the pattern and awareness of all(a lot any way) consequences of that pattern. I became fully aware, at a major subconscious, and minor conscious way of the pattern of an eternal round, a Generation of Time. And through research, study and the efforts of friends has it all become fully conscious, fully documented, both in revelations and in scripture.

So what was it that I came to know, That the reward for living a lesser law, a telestial kingdom - all telestial kingdoms are temporal - a direct answer to one of my lifetime questions. There are NO permanent, forever, never ending telestial kingdoms, they are all temporal. And when Satan says "patterned after the world where we use to live" he was referring to a previous temporal telestial world. Now D&C 93:38 become perfectly clear.

[RevTestament]

On 12/5/2017 at 3:05 PM, co-eternal said:

Joseph taught what Brigham taught.

Remarkable that Joseph taught what he did not yet know? I think not. I think he knew it all, he was the one chosen from the foundations of the world to reveal it. And if you know his identity, you would know that he knew it all, it is his calling to reveal it.

No, not even close. He did not know it all. And if he did, he certainly did not reveal it. All will not be known until the 7th trumpet and the mystery of God is finished as He has declared to His servants. However, JS was the head of the sixth seal (if you doubt that, look it up in D&C), and he revealed the fulness of the gospel, which the Church did not understand, but is now coming to fruition in the seventh seal. 

[co-eternal]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

No, not even close. He did not know it all. And if he did, he certainly did not reveal it. All will not be known until the 7th trumpet and the mystery of God is finished as He has declared to His servants. However, JS was the head of the sixth seal (if you doubt that, look it up in D&C), and he revealed the fulness of the gospel, which the Church did not understand, but is now coming to fruition in the seventh seal. 

What a pitty, and stunning, how easy it is for some to limit Joseph, second unto Christ, has none more for the salvation of man save Christ. He stands today between Thomas S. Monson and Jesus Christ, yet so willing to place limits on what he knew, ignoring what he himself said. Mind boggling ...

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, co-eternal said:

What a pitty, and stunning, how easy it is for some to limit Joseph, second unto Christ, has none more for the salvation of man save Christ. He stands today between Thomas S. Monson and Jesus Christ, yet so willing to place limits on what he knew, ignoring what he himself said. Mind boggling ...

"I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him." (Joseph Smith, HC 6:14, p 308

[mfbukowski]

On 12/5/2017 at 2:22 PM, co-eternal said:

And there is more:

Joseph Smith
“I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to
me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.” (TPJS, pg. 305)
“Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the Kingdom of God, I do not know that you would rise
up and kill me…” (As recalled by Parley P. Pratt in MS 55:585)
“If I was to show the Latter-day Saints all the revelations that the Lord has shown unto me, there is
scarce a man that would stay with me, they could not bear it” (MS 13:257)
“The design of the great God in sending us into this world, and organizing us to prepare us for the
eternal worlds, I shall keep in my own bosom at present.” (HC 5:403. Also see TPJS pg. 30)
“People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until they see me
weighted in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, see me as I am. I
dare not tell them, and they do not know me.” (Zebedee Coltrin quoting Joseph Smith. See Joseph
Smith; The Prophet, The Man pg. 28)
“Brother Brigham, if I was to reveal to this people what the Lord has revealed to me, there is not a
man or woman [that] would stay with me.” (Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith. JD 9:294)
“If I were to reveal the things that God has revealed to me, if I were to reveal to this people the doctrines
that I know are for their exaltation, these men would spill my blood.” (George A. Smith quoting Joseph
Smith. JD 2:217)
“I have asked the Lord to take me away. I have to seal my testimony to this generation with my blood. I
have to do it for this work will never progress until I am gone for the testimony is of no force until the
testator is dead. People little know who I am when they talk about me, and they never will know until
they see me weighed in the balance in the Kingdom of God. Then they will know who I am, and see
me as I am. I dare not tell them and they do not know me.” (Joseph Smith as quoted by Mary Elizabeth
Rollins Lightner, Plural wife of the Prophet, BYU, 1905)
“‘Many men,’ said he, ‘will say, I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times’, but the
moment you teach them some of the mysteries of the kingdom of God that are retained in the heavens, and
are prepared for them, they will be the first to stone you and put you to death. It was this same principle
that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ, and will cause the people to kill the prophets in this generation. Would
to God, brethren, I could tell you who I am! Would to God I could tell you what I know! But you
would call it blasphemy, and there are men upon this stand who would want to take my life.” (Joseph
Smith, Jr., as quoted by Heber C. Kimball, Life of Heber C. Kimball, by Orson F. Whitney, pg. 322-323)
“But there has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation it has been like
splitting hemlock knots with a corn doger for a wedge & a pumpkin for a beetle, Even [sic] the Saints are
slow to understand I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the saints prepared to
receive the things of God, but we frequently see some of them after suffering all they have for the
work of God will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions,
they cannot stand the fire at all, How [sic] many will be able to abide a Celestial law & go through &
receive their exaltation I am unable to say but many are called & few are chosen.” (The Words of Joseph
Smith, pg. 319)
“If I should reveal the things that God has revealed to me, there are some on this stand that would
cut my throat or take my hearts blood.” (Joseph Robinson Quoting Joseph Smith. See Joseph Smith; The
Prophet, The Man pg. 28)
“The Lord deals with this people as a tender parent with a child, communicating light and intelligence and
the knowledge of his ways as they can bear it.” (HC 5:402)
“If a man gets the fullness of God he has to get [it] in the same way that Jesus obtain[ed] it & that was
by keeping all the ordinances of the house of the Lord. Men will say I will never forsake you but will stand
by you at all times but the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of God that are retained in
the heavens and are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared, They will be the
first to stone you & put you to death” (The Words of Joseph Smith, pg. 213)
“Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the nighttime. And
by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels
came down and ministered unto me. And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away
upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for
man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.” (2 Nephi 4:23-25)
“I will from time to time reveal to you the subjects that are revealed by the Holy Ghost to me.” (HC
6:366)
“And no tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man, neither can the hearts of men
conceive so great and marvelous things as we both saw and heard Jesus speak; and no one can
conceive of the joy which filled our souls at the time we heard him pray for us unto the Father.” (3 Nephi
17:17)
“But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed
unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; Which he commanded
us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is
man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the
Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he
grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; That through the power and manifestation of
the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.” (D&C 76:114-
118)
“And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith,
and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest
unto them. And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld
from them, unto their condemnation. Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon
the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.” (3 Nephi 26:9-
11)
“God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost,
that has not been revealed since the world was until now; Which our forefathers have awaited with anxious
expectation to be revealed in the last times, which their minds were pointed to by the angels, as held in
reserve for the fullness of their glory; A time to come in the which nothing shall be withheld, whether
there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifest.” (D&C 121:26-28)
“Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the
knowledge of truth.” (D&C 50:40)
“Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never
were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me
that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof;
wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord. For the Lord said
unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their
iniquity, and become clean before the Lord. And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the
Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto
them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations,
saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them
are.” (Ether 4:4-7)
“The people cannot bear the revelations that the Lord has for them. There were a great many
revelations if the people could bear them.” (Brigham Young quoting Joseph Smith. JD 18: 242)
“But I beg leave to say unto you, brethren, that ignorance, superstition and bigotry placing itself
where it ought not, is oftentimes in the way of the prosperity of this Church; like the torrent of rain
from the mountains, that floods the most pure and crystal stream with mire, and dirt, and filthiness, and
obscures everything that was clear before, and all rushes along in one general deluge; but time weathers
tide; and notwithstanding we are rolled in the mire of the flood for the time being, the next surge
peradventure, as time rolls on, may bring to us the fountain as clear as crystal, and as pure as snow;
while the filthiness, flood wood and rubbish is left and purged out by the way.” (HC 3:296-297)
“It is my meditation all the day & more than my meat & drink to know how I shall make the saints of
God to comprehend the visions that roll like an overflowing surge, before my mind. O how I would
delight to bring before you things which you never thought of, but poverty & the cares of the world
prevent. but [sic] I am glad I have the privilige of communicating to you some things, which if
grasped closely will be a help to you when the clouds are gathering & the storms are ready to burst upon
you like peals of thunder. lay [sic] hold of these things & let not your knees tremble. nor [sic] your
hearts faint.” (The Words of Joseph Smith pg. 196)
“I will also remark that I am sensible that no man can speak to a congregation of people upon any
subject, only according to the intelligence that is in the people. There are quite a number of this
congregation who knew Joseph Smith the Prophet, and he used to say in Nauvoo that when he came before
the people he felt as though he were enclosed in an iron case, his mind was closed by the influences that
were thrown around him; he was curtailed in his wishes and desires to do good; there was no room for him
to expand, hence he could not make use of the revelations of God as he would have done; there was no
room in the hearts of the people to receive the glorious truths of the Gospel that God revealed to
him.” (JD 10:233-234. Heber C. Kimball talking about Joseph Smith.)
“I never have had opportunity to give them the plan that God has revealed to me.” (The Personal
Writings of Joseph Smith, March 15, 1839, pg. 386-387)
“Without a revelation, I am not going to give them the knowledge of the God of Heaven.” (HC 6:475)
“Would to God that I had forty days and nights in which to tell you all!” (HC 6: 313)
“You don't know me; you never knew my heart. No man knows my history. I cannot tell it: I shall
never undertake it.” (HC 6: 317)
“I wish I could speak for three or four hours… I would still go on, and show you proof upon proofs.”
(HC 6:479)
“Some people say I am a fallen Prophet, because I do not bring forth more of the word of the Lord. Why
did I not do it? Are we able to receive it? No! not one in this room.” (HC 4:478)
Brigham Young
“But I would not dare tell you all I know about these matters.” (JD 8:208)
“I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be
nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told
you the truth as far as I have gone.” (JD 1:50-51)
“The life that is within us is a part of an eternity of life, and is organized spirit, which is clothed upon by
tabernacles, thereby constituting our present being, which is designed for the attainment of further
intelligence. The matter composing our bodies and spirits has been organized from the eternity of matter
that fills immensity. Were I to fully speak what I know and understand concerning myself and others,
you might think me to be infringing. I shall therefore omit some things that I would otherwise say to
you if the people were prepared to receive them.” (JD 7: 285)
“It is said to be eternal life, ‘to know the only wise God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.’ I will tell you
one thing, as brother Hyde has said, it would be an excellent plan for us to go to work and find out
ourselves, for as sure as you find out yourselves, you will find out God, whether you are Saint or sinner.
A man cannot find out himself without the light of revelation; he has to turn round and seek to the Lord his
God, in order to find out himself. If you find out who Joseph was, you will know as much about God as
you need to at present; for if He said, ‘I am a God to this people,’ He did not say that He was the only
wise God. Jesus was a God to the people when he was upon earth, was so before he came to this earth,
and is yet. Moses was a God to the children of Israel, and in this manner you may go right back to
Father Adam.” (JD 4:271)
“I will now say to my brethren and sisters, that while we were in Winter Quarters, the Lord gave to me a
revelation just as much as he ever gave one to anybody. He opened my mind, and showed me the
organization of the kingdom of God in a family capacity. I talked it to my brethren; I would throw it
out a few words here, and a few words there, to my first counselor, to my second counselor and the
Twelve Apostles, but with the exception of one or two of the Twelve, it would not touch a man.
They believed it would come, O yes, but it would be by and by. Says I, ‘Why not now?’ If I had been worth
millions when we came into this valley and built what we now call the ‘Old Fort,’ I would have given it if
the people had been prepared to then receive the kingdom of God according to the pattern given to
Enoch. But I could not touch them.” (JD 18:244)
“You need exhorting rather than teaching. You have been taught doctrine in abundance, and I have
sometimes thought it a pity the Lord has revealed quite as much as he has. And I can truly say that I
believe, if I am guilty in any one point in my walk before this people, it is in telling them things they
are not worthy of—that I have given unto them things that they could not receive. For this reason I
deem it mainly needful to stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance.” (JD 7: 238)
“There are other revelations, besides this (meaning the one on war), not yet published to the world.
In the due time of the Lord, the Saints and the world will be privileged with the revelations that are
due them. They now have many more than they are worthy of, for they do not observe them. The
Gentile nations have had more of the revelations of God than is their just due. And I will say, as I have
before said, if guilt before my God and my brethren rests upon me in the least, it is in this one thing --
that I have revealed too much concerning God and His Kingdom, and the designs of our Father in
heaven. If my skirts are stained in the least with wrong, it is because I have been too free in telling
what God is, how he lives, the nature of his providences and designs in creating the world, in
bringing forth the human family on the earth, his designs concerning them, etc. If I had, like Paul,
said—‘But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant,’ perhaps it would have been better for the
people... when a truth is presented to an intelligent person he ought to grasp it and receive it in his
faith. There are revelations, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding yet to be proclaimed, and
whether they will please the world, or not, is immaterial to me.” (Deseret News, June 27, 1860; JD
8:58-59)
“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which
I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me -- namely that Adam is our father and God… I told the
people that if they would not believe the revelations that God had given he would suffer the devil to
give revelations that they -- priests and people -- would follow after… Have I seen this fulfilled? I
have. I told the people that as true as God lived. If they would not have truth they would have error
sent unto them, and they would believe it. What is the mystery of it?” (Deseret Weekly News 22:308-
309, June 18, 1873)

Joseph knew what Brigham knew. Brigham knew  what Joseph knew. They knew the truth, one truth, the eternal truth.

Two steps to the process:

One is emptying out the self- the carnal man, all that is disobedient, and doing as Christ did- doing ONLY what the Father taught him

Once one is emptied out one can BECOME filled by God and one can take upon oneself God entirely and BECOME a Son and then a Father., an Adam, a Holy Ghost in infinite eternal rounds

Atonement is living without regrets of past sins because grace has eliminated them.  One can choose to live one's life as it is and as it was and as it will be forever again as needed because without the decisions and mistakes made, eliminated by the grace of the atonement, one would not have become (like) God, Christ, Adam.  Without knowledge of evil one cannot eliminate it- one cannot see it inside us and choose what is good.

Christ did as his Father did, and the Father did as he saw his Father do.   We become what we live constantly.

One empties out and takes in God's glory by emptying out and progressing, having no desire to do what is wrong anymore but do good continually.

One must desire to live again incessantly and insatiably "da capo" in Christ.

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” 

Edited December 7, 2017 by mfbukowski