Understanding Adam-God

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, co-eternal said:

There are two First Presidencies or Godheads associated with this world.

The King Follet DIscourse shows us that God the Father(Adam) was the Savior of a world. And as such, he was a member of the Godhead of that world.

That Godhead Consisted of Elohiem (Adam's Father),  Adam, and Jehovah. And that Godhead appeared on this world to introduce Adam to the Garden. (Elohiem had already done this so he was there to show Adam how).

After Elohim had completed his work, The First Presidency of this world was organized (actually the last task of Elohim). This new First Presidency or Godhead consists of God the Father(Adam), God the Son(Jehovah/Christ) and God the Testator (who is second to Christ).

Your understanding of Brigham's teachings seems very similar to my own.

I am still curious about the Adam-God Theory paper by apostates that you reject and who authored it.

[RevTestament]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

No, I think the point is that Father is "AN Adam", not OUR "Adam", if you trust Satan's word for it.

 

We don't have to trust Satan's word for it. YHWH Elohim both say as much in 

Gen 3:22  And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

[RevTestament]

On 11/27/2017 at 4:42 PM, Glenn101 said:

Actually Brigham contradicted himself, or is quoted as contradicting himself in the very famous speech that pretty much started the whole fireworks.

This is from the JOD, but we know from ongoing research that George D. Watt was prone to embellish the things that he recorded.
Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into
the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He
helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about
whom holy men have written and spoken − HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom
WE have to do. 

Now notice however that is the same speech, Brigham supposedly laid out the more orthodox view of the relationship between the Father, Son, and Michael.
It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael,
these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in
the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. JD 1:51, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852

Now, read what Brigham supposedly said in a later discourse in 1857:
Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and
lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been
created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth,
until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the
coarse materials of this earth. JD 4:218, Brigham Young, February 8, 1857

Now, go back to the 1852 speech and Wilford Woodruff

From Wilford Woodruff's Journal:
April 9, 1852: Part of remarks of Brigham Young: "I will now preach you a
sermon. There is one great Master and Head in all kingdoms and government. So
with our Father in Heaven. He is a tabernacle. He created us in the likeness
of His own image. The Son has also a tabernacle like to the Fathers and the
Holy Ghost is a minister to the people but not a tabernacle who begot [62] the
Son of God. Infidels say that Jesus was a ******* but let me tell you the
truth concerning that matter. Our Father begot all the spirits that were
before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden, He came
with his celestial body and brought one of his wives with him and ate of the
fruit of the garden until He could beget a tabernacle. And Adam is Michael or
God and all the God that we have anything to do with. JD 1:51, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852

From those statements and Wilford Woodruff's journal entry a case could very well be made that Brigham was teaching that our Heavenly Father came down to the earth with one of His Celestioal Wives, and partook of the fruits, etc. (coarse materials) of this earth until they could produce offspring (the Biblical Adam and Eve) that could become mortal. That Adam and Eve were raised to a point of physical maturity, given the instructions that we have read, and the rest is on point, more or less with our current understanding of the Garden of Eden story.

I am not advocating this as the Gospel according to Brigham Young. It does not reconcile every quote or what many thought he meant. It is just another fairly rational (at least to me) take on what Brigham supposedly said or meant.

Glenn

I have to agree with JLHPROF that there is not necessarily a contradiction, but apparently for a slightly different reason.

I don't view spiritual begetting as happening in heaven as some kind of a result of heavenly intercourse. I believe the scriptures give us an example of spiritual begetting here:

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

I believe Yeshua was also begotten this same way. That is - He literally followed the Father, and became His only begotten Son by covenant. By following him in spirit, He was spiritually begotten. Thus, He who was and still is our "fellow" or brother, becomes our Father. 

This is at least part of the gospel in a nutshell, and the Church has yet to really get it. The Church still thinks very temporally about this, as did BY with his apparent idea that the Father literally conceived Yeshua some physical way(although I confess he doesn't quite come out and say that - he certainly gets lampooned that way). In other words the Father is not the Father of Yeshua because He conceived His earthly body - He is the Father of Yeshua because Yeshua followed a path like that in Rev 21:7. I have tried to clarify the begotten nature of the Son on this board for several years, but it seems the old Church temporal understanding causes "blinders" to progressing beyond the current understanding - and I understand that - although I think a few at least have some appreciation for what I have tried to say. Who am I? - just some new crackpot to visit the board. However, I believe the scriptures tell us this, and it comes from several places such as Hebrews - that the Son was begotten in time when the Father told him "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee" and further that it was by the oath that the Son was begotten. In other words again He is related to the Father as the Son by covenant - it is a priesthood office.

Anyway, I don't see a statement that things were first created spiritually as somehow being inconsistent or contradictory to his other statements.  I don't see the statement "It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael," as wrong but just incomplete. I don't see Elohim as being higher than YWHW though. I appreciate your spelling here though or whosever it is. It is quite close. I see both the Father and Son as YHWH Elohim, but not all Elohim as YHWH. I believe the title is saying something like this to us: I am the life/word of the family of immovable forces. Michael may well have been a participant in the creation the earth, but that doesn't mean there weren't other participants as Elohim. Adam apparently did have a celestial body before coming to this earth, as did others, and probably did bring his wife to whom he was sealed. I can accept all that, but not see it the same way as the Church has come to see it I think. 

I'm not sure if the Church's reticence  about the Bible has anything to do with it, but it is quite evident from the Tanakh that both the Father and Son are YHWH Elohim beginning from Gen 3:22 but there are others like: 

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that cries in the wilderness, 'Prepare ye the way of YHWH.'
John the Baptist points to Yeshua and says this is the one whom I am preparing the way for.
Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.(See Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord...)
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The Lord hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16  Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord(Adonay) God(YHWH), and his Spirit, hath sent me.
17 Thus saith the Lord(YHWH), thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord(YHWH) thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
 

Here the one speaking in the chapter is clearly referring to Himself as YHWH as the Holy One of Israel who spoke from the beginning and called Israel, and yet says that YHWH  and His Spirit hath sent Him, although the KJV mucks it up a bit. 
 

I hope visitors to this board will not be reticent to accept what the Hebrew scriptures plainly reveal. Although I do believe there is at least one place in the scriptures the scribes apparently tried to cover up a separateness between the Most High and YHWH, I see plenty of other places where a distinction is clear like that above. I still see those who do not understand that the Father is YHWH. It is evident from Deut 18, and other scriptures. I have not taken an institute course, but my guess is it does not teach it. It should at least point out what the Tanakh says if it is going to be a thorough course.

 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Your understanding of Brigham's teachings seems very similar to my own.

I am still curious about the Adam-God Theory paper by apostates that you reject and who authored it.

I'm glad I'm not so confused. (-;

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

My point is, regardless of how you or I personally view Adam-God, it seems an overreaction.  Especially since there were periods in Church history when NOT believing it could get you called before a disciplinary council.  View it as a relic of our past attributed to Brigham if you like, but I don't understand the vitriol.

It seems like you see it as an overreaction because of how you personally view the teaching.  You really can't understand why someone could feel very strongly about an LDS prophet teaching that God was Adam (with all that that implies)?

[longview]

10 hours ago, co-eternal said:

D&C 135

You are referring to verse 3.  True, the results of JS' life in bringing about the Restoration of the Gospel and establishing the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times is very momentous and astonishing.  But this does NOT mean JS has more authority than Adam and Noah.  You are actually going against JS' own words in the text.  Please read it again (very carefully) in JS Papers.

D&C 135:3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.

[clarkgoble]

16 hours ago, strappinglad said:

And yet the modern Brethren have thrown a large wet blanket over the whole thing. I wonder why.

Not just modern. Brigham backed off some parts later in his life. Within a couple of decades of Brigham's death (i.e. about the amount of time since many of us were in college) the Church was mostly teaching something else. Woodruff didn't condemn the doctrine but didn't teach it. Ditto Snow. Then we get the official statement on diety by the First Presidency, clearly designed to put Adam/God to rest even if it avoided many issues.  

Now as I've said there's really only a couple of points of Brigham's teaching that the Church has trouble with. Those can be resolved by postulating two Adams or simply Brigham getting most of it right and parts of it wrong. I'm not sure the Church's move to try and standardize titles to particular beings was as helpful as it could have been, although I certainly understand why pedagogically they did it. Especially with the problem of apostate groups over the end of polygamy. (Adam/God was most definitely caught up in all that)

9 hours ago, co-eternal said:

D&C 129 tells us that an angel is a resurrected personage of flesh and bone. Is that not what Jusus was after he was resurrected.

At the time of the revelation. That's not necessarily the case in the past where they could be translated or not yet resurrected. One need only point to Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus, Peter, James and John on the mountaintop. 

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Agree, and that has been a traditional interpretation though Eve does not make it clear

In one of his books, Blake Ostler makes the point that partaking of the fruit was not the first sin- a transgression perhaps, yes but the first sin was hiding from God "because they were naked".  Until that act they had obeyed everything - as best as they could considering the ambiguity of eating the fruit.   It was when they hid from God that they willingly turned their backs and tried to hide the truth.

I don't know how doctrinal that is, but it is an interesting perspective.

A big question is whether not knowing good and evil they could sin at all until they took the sin. Second, despite what Blake says it's not at all clear why not wanting appear naked in front of God is a sin. If anything it seems like their knowledge of good and evil is allowing them to see that appearing naked is wrong. But the Adam and Eve story is so interesting precisely because it can be read in so many unique ways.

 

[RevTestament]

On 11/26/2017 at 10:49 PM, Benjamin Seeker said:

I've actually just written something on a possible origin for Adam-God. Essentially, it's likely a reinterpretation of things JS was already teaching. There is credible evidence that JS believed in some version of multiple mortal probations, and Adam-God can be seen as a variant of it, though I think JS would disagree with Brigham Young on the status of Jesus Christ, Adam's role in the godhead, and the nature of spirit birth. I'll include my full comments below.

I want to commend you on one of the best, most succinct statements I have ever seen on this subject from anyone in the Church. I have a couple of comments to make, and I hope they may add something to your comments.

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In Radio Free Mormon's recent podcast, Making Doctrine Out of Nothing at All, he points out the tension between JS' teaching that "spirits are eternal" and the idea of spirit birth (1/5/1841). RFM is not the first to point out this tension. Scholars of Mormonism have debated whether JS taught spirit birth or some form of spirit adoption (for example, see here, here, here, and here). Multiple statements by Joseph Smith appear to negate the idea of literal spirit birth, but on the other hand, D&C 132's "continuation of the seed" perpetuated only by couples sealed in the new and everlasting covenant infers some kind of eternal progeny in a traditional family setting. However, these two contradictory ideas can be surprisingly and satisfactorily reconciled when viewed through the lens of multiple mortal probations.

I agree. See my comments from my post above.

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God Never Did Have Power to Create the Spirit of Man at All

For those unfamiliar with the idea that JS didn't teach or believe in literal spirit birth, Following is a list of teachings and texts cited to support the idea of no spirit birth:

• "Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal." See Abraham 3:18.
• "Spirits are eternal." & "If the soul of man had a beginning it will surely have an end." See JS' comments on 1/5/1841.
• "spirit is a substance; that it is material, but that it is more pure, elastic and refined matter than the body; that it existed before the body, can exist in the body... Without attempting to describe this mysterious connection, and the laws that govern the body and the spirit of man, their relationship to each other, and the design of God in relation to the human body and spirit, I would just remark, that the spirits of men are eternal," See Times and Seasons article on 4/1/1842.
• "He says the spirit or the intelligence of men are self Existent principles before the foundation this Earth--& quotes the Lords question to Job "where wast thou when I laid the foundation of the Earth" Evidence that Job was in Existing somewhere at that time he says God is Good & all his acts is for the benifit of infereir intelligences-- God saw that those inteligences had Not power to Defend themselves against those that had a tabernicle therefore the Lord Calls them togather in Counsel & agrees to form them tabernicles so that he might Gender the Spirit & the tabernicle togather so as to create sympathy for their fellowman." See JS' comments on 3/28/1841.
• "God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. He could not create himself--Intelligence exists upon a selfexistent principle--is a spirit from age to age & no creation about it." See William Clayton's notes on JS' King Follett Sermon.
• "Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal, and yet have a beginning? Because if a spirit have a beginning it will have an end; good logic...  I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal spirit, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; but as the Lord lives there would be an end... God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself: intelligence exists upon a self existent principle, it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it." See Times and Season's report of JS' King Follett Sermon.
• "How came spirits? Why they are and were self existing as all eternity and our spirits are as eternal as the very God is himself." See George Laub's summary of JS' King Follett Sermon. 

Note how in the quotations above JS uses the word intelligence as a synonym for the word spirit, counter to the current mainstream LDS understanding (Abraham 3:21-22 serves as additional evidence that JS used the word intelligence to refer to the spirit of man).

The above quotes contradict the modern LDS understanding that spirits are born of heavenly parents, in which process intelligence, an eternal substance, is clothed on with spirit and becomes a spirit son or daughter of God, and as mentioned earlier they also run counter to D&C 132's inference of a traditional family setting in exaltation with parents and children. However, D&C 132 does not specify that the "continuation of the seed" consists of literal spirit children, and when viewed in context with JS' other teachings in the 1840s, it very possibly instead refers to mortal children.

In addition to your comments I would point out that Abraham teaches the eternality of spirits just a few verses above your reference, which clearly conflicts with the idea of spirit babies born in heaven to heavenly parents. I am not opposed to the idea that men are reborn in spirit to heavenly parents however. 

Abraham 3:

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

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JS' Multiple Mortal Probations

In order to understand how progeny in the eternal worlds would start with mortal birth instead of spiritual birth, we need to understand the concept of multiple mortal probations. There is evidence that JS taught that those who would go onto exaltation would experience at least one additional mortal existence, as a Savior like Jesus Christ. In 1841 JS taught, "that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would to the same when in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many their were many mansions even 12 from the abode of Devils to the Celestial glory" (see citations and discussion here). JS apparently believed in a regress of Gods, that Heavenly Father "redeemed a world" similar to Christ's redemptive acts for this world, and that the Holy Ghost would one day do the same (see additional evidence here). The key phrase in the quote above comes at the end when it states that "so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many." According to JS, somehow the path of exaltation for celestial heirs includes an additional mortality as a Christ or the Son (see additional discussion and evidence here).

That JS was generally flirting with the idea of multiple mortal probations is evidenced by the following (many of these don't point to a specific theology of multiple mortal probations, but instead just suggest that it was somehow part of JS' thoughts and teachings in the 1840s):

• Joseph reportedly believed in reincarnation in this period. "Apostle Lorenzo Snow said that "his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith, was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband." Prescendia Huntington Buell (later Kimball) also affirmed her belief in "plural probations," referring to a statement "in confirmation" by her polyandrous husband Joseph Smith." See the Multiple Mortal Probations: LDS Related Quotes document found at Brian Hales' mormonpolygamydocuments.org.
• Heber C. Kimball, who taught some version of multiple mortal probations at various times, claimed that JS, in the Nauvoo period, had declared Kimball's multiple mortal probation doctrine as true: "I frequently talk about the clay in the hands of the potter. The Lord said to Jeremiah, "I will show you a thing that I cannot tell you. Go down to the potter's house, and I will be there, but you shall not see me; and I will make that potter mar a vessel." Jeremiah went down to the potter's house, and the Lord showed him the very thing he had promised; for the potter undertook to make a vessel, and the clay marred in his hands, and he cut it off the wheel and threw it into the mill; "and now," says he, "take it out again and shape it into a ball, and turn it into a vessel of honour." He did that very thing, though it is not written. The Scriptures say that out of the same lump he made a vessel first unto dishonour, and then unto honour. I USED TO PREACH UPON THAT IN NAUVOO, AND JOSEPH SAID IT WAS THE TRUE INTERPRETATION. Now, Jeremiah was a man like brother Brigham, brother Heber, Amasa, and thousands of the servants of God that were valiant. There are thousands here that have never seen a potter's house. But if I was in one, I could take a lump of clay and show you; and perhaps, being out of practice, it would mar in my hands: then I would throw it back into the mill and grind it, and afterwards I would take it up again and make a vessel unto honour. And thus the Lord said to Jeremiah, "As you see that clay mar in the hands of the potter, so shall it be with the house of Israel. They shall go and be in prison till I bring them out and make them vessels unto honour." That is to be done in the latter days, when the Lord is to say to the dry bones, "Come forth," and so on. Go and read the Bible, and you will learn about it. It will be just so with thousands and tens of thousands who will embrace "Mormonism:" they will go back into the mill again, through disobedience." (Heber C. Kimball, JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, 5:271f)
• Multiple mortal probations can be inferred from George Laub's summary of the King Follett sermon, or at least the specific version in which celestial heirs and godhood complete a mortal probation as a Christ. Laub wrote "Jesus Christ spoke in this manner; I do as my Father before me did. Well what did the Father do? Why he went and took a body and went to redeem a world in the flesh and had power to lay down his life and to take it up again... For we are to go from glory to glory and as one is raised to a higher, so the next under him may take his degree and so to take the exaltation through the regular channel. When we get to where Jesus is, he will be just as far ahead of us again in exaltation." See Laub's Summary.
• The endowment appears to show beings as physical that we would normally assume to only be spirits because they have mortal existences yet to live out. Their physical form is the logical conclusion if the endowment is taken literally as it only seems JS intended it to be taken indicated by his comments on the endowment giving keys to decipher between true and false messengers (see JS' comments on 5/1/1842 and his comments on the "keys of the kingdom" on 4/28/1842), when viewed in conjunction with his oft repeated instructions, given before and after introducing the Nauvoo endowment, that righteous spirits don’t shake hands (see JS' comments on 6/27/1839, 8/8/1939, 12/1840, 3/21/1841, and 4/9/1843). Taken together this all infers some kind of general MMP mechanism.
• D&C 132:22-25, which dates from the Nauvoo period, can easily be interpreted as some form of reincarnation or multiple mortal probations: "For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know. But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also. This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law. Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law."
• In 1846 “Brigham Young laid hands on Heber C. Kimball and "Ordained him to the Godhead, and that he would act as the Savior to a world or worlds." This was part of a long prayer. Promised wives, seed without number, be full partaker with Abraham, Isaac., and Jacob. The Godhead was a different blessing from Godhood. (Some received only Godhood.) Heber C. Kimball then did the same to Brigham Young, i.e., ordained him to The Godhead. They in turn did it by proxy for Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Other saints (W.W. Phelps) were blessed to act in Trinities (or Presidencies of worlds)." See Hale’s Multiple mortal probations document.
• An interesting account by Joseph Lee Robinson: "We also heard him (Joseph) say that God had revealed unto him that any man who ever committed adultery in either of his probations that that man could never be raised to the highest exaltation in the celestial glory and that he (Joseph) felt anxious with regard to himself and he inquired of the Lord and the Lord told him that he, Joseph, had never committed adultery (D&C 132:41). This saying of the Prophet astonished me very much. It opened up to me a very wide field of reflection. The idea that we had passed through probations prior to this and that we must have been married and given in marriage in those probations or there would be no propriety in making such an assertion and that there were several exaltations in the servants to the Gods. Be this as it may, this is what he said." See Journal of Joseph Lee Robinson, http://planetnielsen.com/joseph_lee_robinson/jlr_basic_journal.pdf, pp. 40-41. Some people have argued that JS's phrase, "either probation," could refer to our mortal probation and preexistence (1st and 2nd estates), and frankly, this seems like a plausible understanding of the quote, which in that scenario it at least infers that spirits were married in the preexistence. However, obviously Robinson understood Joseph as referring to some version of multiple mortal probations, which makes us wonder if there was more than what Robinson reported or if he was piecing together other things he'd heard Joseph say. No matter, he understood JS to mean multiple mortal probations, and the date of the quote is just shy of the Woodruff's notes about progression of the Godhead, being the fall of 1841. 

Thank you so much for your comments here, and your researched links. I recently commented that I felt the Church got off on the wrong foot with an idea that exaltation is reached through temporal polygamy. I know this is a somewhat sensitive topic, but I would hope that the Church can grow past this idea that one must have polygamous relationships to be exalted. It just is not so, and I believe has led to great harm, although unintentionally. I am not saying polygamous relationships are inherently bad nor that the Lord is not pleased with strides made by the early Church in overcoming human tendencies in such relationships. Nor that the Lord was not trying to teach us something through temporal polygamy. Just that I agree with you that Joseph had something much more important to say that got left behind by the Church in the dust. You do a great job showing this.

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Joseph Smith and Adam-God

Another evidence that JS taught and believed in some version of multiple mortal probations is Brigham's and others' claims that JS taught him Adam-God. Here are a few references:

• "It was Joseph's doctrine that Adam was God ... God comes to earth and partakes of the fruit. Joseph could not reveal what was revealed to him." Brigham Young Papers, Meeting of Quorum of Twelve, 4 April 1860.
• "President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel and he was the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and that Joseph taught this principle." 16 December 1876, Meeting of School of Prophets, Wilford Woodruff Journal. 
• "Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God." Brigham Young Papers, 14 May 1876.
• "I heard Joseph say...”Adam is the Father of our bodies. Who is to say He is not the Father of our spirits.”" John Taylor, 13 January 1880, L. John Nuttall Papers.
• "Now regarding Adam: He came here from another planet - an immortalized being and brought his wife Eve with him - and by eating of the fruit of the earth, became subject to death and decay - was made mortal and subject to death." Joseph Smith to Anson Call, John M. Whitaker Papers. This is a late remembrance apparently filtered through the memory of Brigham's 1852 Adam-God sermon.

 Adam-God is essentially a form of multiple mortal probations as it posits formerly exalted beings came to an earth and experienced an additional mortal existence. However, with no contemporary accounts of JS teaching Adam-God and a number of contradictions to JS' teachings, the above claims can't be accepted at face value. One of the major contradictions in Adam-God doctrine as Brigham Young believed and taught is that it places Adam in a superior position to Jesus Christ. JS taught, "Christ is the Great High priest; Adam next" (see JS' comments on 8/8/1939), and later reiterated this when he said, "These angels are under the direction of Michael or Adam who acts under the direction of Christ" (see JS' comments on 10/5/1840). Drawing on this order of authority, elements of Adam-God, JS' teaching on the progression of the godhead, and the eventual Christhood of all celestial heirs, a possible theology emerges that is perhaps what JS originally intended.

A few additional comments - JS' teaching that Adam is God is not incorrect in English parlance, but Adam as Elohim is not El Elyon, the Most High El who is our Heavenly Father. Elohim is better understood as the house of God. Yeshua is Elohim, as even the Children of Israel are Elohim per Psalms 82, and Yeshua per John.

Our Adam is not the Father of Jesus Christ. D&C make it clear that Adam was given the keys of Salvation UNDER THE DIRECTION of the Holy One who is Jesus Christ. However, at some point our Father was an Adam, and became the Father of Yeshua. That is the great secret JS was trying to teach I think. This is from the key of Michael. It is a spiritual teaching which I think became misconstrued as an error.
In the interest of full disclosure, however, I do not believe Adam is the genetic father of all men currently on the earth. He is our earthly spiritual father in the Word. He was the first to receive the priesthood of God after the law of God was introduced and the fall. That makes him the father of all who hold this priesthood on earth. 

I agree that Adam came from another planet - as did we all. Some of us brought our wives to whom we were sealed, and some did not have this sealing. 

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A Plausible Theology

Though the modern LDS understanding of Elohim as God the Father and Jehovah as God the Son wasn't articulated in JS' time, the godhead presented in the endowment can be inferred to reflect this understanding if Elohim is taken as God the Father, Jehovah as the Son and second in authority, and Adam/Michael as third in authority, which would be consistent with JS' explicit statement about Adam acting under the direction of Christ. This apparently creates a new version of the Godhead replacing the Holy Ghost with Adam or even equating the two. Extremely relevant here are JS' several statements that Christ did what the Father had already done and that the Holy Ghost was to eventually follow in their footsteps (see Wilford Woodruff's notes on 12/30/1841 referenced above, JS's comments on the Holy Ghost being in a probationary state on 8/27/1843, and his comments on the Holy Ghost on 6/16/1844). If the endowment is interpreted to indicate that Michael/Adam is the Holy Ghost, and we apply this progression of God from Holy Ghost to Christ to Father, one of the possible models of exaltation would run as follows:

1. Exalted being enters a Godhead. 
2. During his first role as Michael/Adam, he becomes mortal by eating of the tree of knowledge.
3. Adam dies and is the Holy Ghost.
4. If he passes his probationary state as the Holy Ghost, he goes on to "redeem a world" as a Christ, like the Son and the Father before him.
5. Eventually he reaches the stage of Elohim and becomes the head of a godhead.

In this model, D&C 132's "continuation of the seeds" consists of exalted beings' patriarchal fatherhood and matriarchal motherhood over the entire human race. JS taught, "He (Adam) is the father of the human family, and presides over the spirits of all men" (see here). Adam as a physical and spiritual/patriarchal father through lineage requires no literal spirit birth, only mortal birth, to fulfill the promises of exaltation given in D&C 132. The possibility that JS envisioned patriarchal fatherhood as a spiritual adoption fits with his teachings and revelations on spiritual adoption and lineage. Further, the apparent link between 132's "continuation of the seeds" and "continuation of the lives" also makes sense in this model as the additional mortal existence as an Adam allows the God to gain progeny or seed.

A possible inspiration for the metaphor of seed as mortal progeny, can be found in 1st Corinthians 15, certainly known to JS as it is the same chapter that inspired D&C 76. The pertinent section reads:

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

In the metaphor the seed is the mortal body and the full grown plant is the resurrected body, and can be easily applied to an exaltation that consists of siring mortal children which are later resurrected. The last verse is of particular note, which calls Christ the "last Adam." This explicit connection between Christ and Adam may have inspired JS.

Another passage from D&C 132 that should be considered states that polygamous wives enter into the new and everlasting covenant "for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men." According to a revelation by JS the soul of man is not his spirit but, "the spirit and the body are the soul of man" (D&C 88:15). Again, this is consistent with a model in which exalted beings have mortal children.

Not only does this theology solve the issue of spirit adoption vs. birth, but it also provides an interesting interpretation of the endowment. The participant's taking on the role of Adam or Eve and then taking on symbols of Christ would be a representation of future roles of exaltation or "eternal lives."

Also of note, is the easy solution the theology provides to Brigham's teachings about Jehovah being the father of Adam and Elohim being Adam's grandfather. Brigham's thoughts run counter to our modern understanding of Elohim being the Father of Christ's and Adam's spirits, but in the proposed theology things work a differently from our modern understanding in an interesting way. The current Christ would have previously been an Adam, and the current Adam presumably would have been one of the righteous mortal men of the former Adam's lineage lineage. That would make Christ the patriarchal father of Adam, and if the pattern is continued upstream, that would make Elohim Adam's grandfather. While clearly Brigham wasn't envisioning things this way, but if Elohim as grandfather and Jehovah as father originated with JS, then it's easy to see how it may have originally fit.

A few comments - Making Adam the Holy Spirit is inconsistent with other statements by Joseph Smith that the Holy Spirit had yet to gain a body in this world and would go through a similar process as the Son, unless one believes there was no literal Adam as an earthly man before Christ. This is because Hebrews teaches we only live once on this world. A few who have not died may return to perform certain tasks, but they do not reenter the world as infants in a new body. So I caution you on your use of the word reincarnated. JS never taught reincarnation. No one is incarnated again on this world as a human nor any other creature. MMP is a separate idea. In MMP there is a new beginning, and the gospel restarts on a new world. No one can get a second chance on this world. "Reincarnation" as such is a devilish slight of hand. Don't use that word or concept, because it refers to a totally different idea. Further, I will pose that Yeshua was not an Adam in His immediately prior world, although He apparently was on some prior world. He was a man who followed the Father and became YHWH with the Father. There is no direct scriptural evidence that Adam is YHWH. It is possible but, then you are skating on ice not clearly supported by scripture.

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Closing Thoughts

This theory is not without it's problems and holes. I don't have contemporary recorded statements from JS on important issues like Adam being the father of our spirits or being a resurrected being. I also don't have any statements at all by JS equating Adam with the Holy Ghost or indicating that heirs of exaltation would fill a role like Adam's.

See my comments above about JS making it evident the HS isn't Adam. 

Richards wrote, "Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has"

I also do not see how you can resolve the position with your own link which points to a statement by Laub:

Another George Laub journal entry: "But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again." 

Again it is my contention that Adam is our earthly spiritual Father in that he introduced the word of God into the world, and lived it in order that we may follow it and progress. But to confuse that with Adam being El Elyon, the Most High and our Heavenly Father, would require us to dismiss the YHWH Elohim speaking to Adam in Genesis and in our ceremony.

Thank you for scholarship and opportunity to discuss this important topic. I believe you are doing the Church a great favor in helping it progress beyond a milk understanding of the Godhead and back to an understanding in line with what JS taught.

 

[JLHPROF]

This board is so fascinating.

So many perspectives on this topic.
We have believers in Adam-God, believers in Watson's Adam Jr/Adam Sr idea, orthodox members who cannot accept anything other than current Church teaching, people speculating on Multiple Mortal Probations, academics who sift through the references and ancient scripture, philosophers who speculate on symbolism and meaning.

So glad this board isn't an echo chamber.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

 Within a couple of decades of Brigham's death (i.e. about the amount of time since many of us were in college) the Church was mostly teaching something else.

Well to me fifty years is a long time.  Let's see.... 1967..... Yep!    Been a while since I was in Students for a Democratic Society....     And "You don't need a Weatherman to see which way the wind blows"

No wonder I see the world differently than you do!     When you read my stuff, think Heraclitus instead of Aristotle.  Reality is a river of chaos constantly changing and always the same.    There would be no need for a restoration if Heraclitus won out against Aristotle who reified eveything into concrete.  Think stream of consciousness instead of things, organic evolution instead of unchanging rocks.  Process.  Whitehead.

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A big question is whether not knowing good and evil they could sin at all until they took the sin. Second, despite what Blake says it's not at all clear why not wanting appear naked in front of God is a sin. If anything it seems like their knowledge of good and evil is allowing them to see that appearing naked is wrong. But the Adam and Eve story is so interesting precisely because it can be read in so many unique ways.

Hey you need a little Woodstock in your life.   Appearing naked is not always "wrong", I would imagine especially in front of the One who gave you all you have down there! 

I even pray in the shower!-  That's how radical I am!!

Edited November 30, 2017 by mfbukowski

[Gray]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Your understanding of Brigham's teachings seems very similar to my own.

I am still curious about the Adam-God Theory paper by apostates that you reject and who authored it.

Yes, that's what I understood about it as well.

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, that's what I understood about it as well.

That is what Brigham etc taught.  It's not that complicated.
If we try to make it mesh with current doctrine, or speculate beyond these basics, or pretend Brigham meant something other than the record states, that's where the confusion around Adam-God comes from.

[clarkgoble]

30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No wonder I see the world differently than you do!     When you read my stuff, think Heraclitus instead of Aristotle.  Reality is a river of chaos constantly changing and always the same.    There would be no need for a restoration if Heraclitus won out against Aristotle who reified eveything into concrete.  Think stream of consciousness instead of things, organic evolution instead of unchanging rocks.  Process.  Whitehead.

That's helpful. We might be closer than I thought. I had a bunch of replies in the other thread but for some reason I can't post in that thread and the replies I did post in the techne thread disappeared. But if you are more process most of them are moot anyway. I was confused because you keep talking state which to me is anti-process.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

That is what Brigham etc taught.  It's not that complicated.
If we try to make it mesh with current doctrine, or speculate beyond these basics, or pretend Brigham meant something other than the record states, that's where the confusion around Adam-God comes from.

It is simple, but there are more basics to it than the drawing implies. Current doctrine aside, it doesn't mesh with key passages from the Book of Moses. For example: Adam-God’s exalted father is not the Father of the Only Begotten (as Moses 6:52, 59 and 62 say he is), but Adam-God is. Unless Adam'-God's exalted father is speaking to Adam about the relationship between the Father and the Son as if he were Adam, which doesn't make sense (a reverse divine investiture of authority?), these verses do not make sense according to the Adam-God teaching. Also, if we can all become sons of the Man of Holiness (Adam-God's exalted father) the same way Adam did (verse 68), then we are all also previously immortal gods that are presently re-mortalized, fallen gods. I think that is where the multiple mortal probations idea comes from.

Edited November 30, 2017 by CV75

[co-eternal]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Are you openly stating you believe Joseph Smith to be the personage of the Holy Ghost?  I don't want to misrepresent your beliefs.

That is a very unusual position for a member to hold. I know in my studies several fundamentalist groups do, and after Joseph died one of the Church leaders asked members to stop claiming that because it was believed by many and spreading.  I have wondered myself if it might be the case, but as a member I find that most members today would likely have a big issue with the idea.

Why is it that anytime something comes up that is not taught in Primary fundamentalism is raised. I am surprised how little members know of restored truths and so much they know of fundamentalism. I am the wrong person to ask about fundamentalism, I don't study it. I spend my time with true messengers from the father.

If I had openly said it would you be asking are you openly saying that. If I was openly saying that I would be openly saying that. But since you brought it up it is something to think of though.

Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the theater?

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, co-eternal said:

Why is it that anytime something comes up that is not taught in Primary fundamentalism is raised. I am surprised how little members know of restored truths and so much they know of fundamentalism. I am the wrong person to ask about fundamentalism, I don't study it. I spend my time with true messengers from the father.

Fundamentalism was raised this time because you specifically referred to a teaching popular in fundamentalist circles, but not in the Church.
If you didn't get it from fundamentalism, that's fine.  But you can't complain about a connection being made.

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If I had openly said it would you be asking are you openly saying that. If I was openly saying that I would be openly saying that. But since you brought it up it is something to think of though.

 Ok, let me be clearer.  You did imply it clearly.  And yes, it is something to think of.  I have mentioned it on the board before, and most members find it offensive for one reason or another.

[co-eternal]

I find reading this forum "interestiing".

It is like turning on the TV to watch a football game and seeing some guys setting around talking about the game as they watch it. Each having their own preferences, experiences and focuses. Quite a debate as to what happened on each play.

When I was a starving student, I listened to the hockey games on the radio while I did my homework. The announcer painted quite a picture of the game in my mind, it was quite exciting. After I graduated and could afford a TV I was excited to watch a hockey game for the first time. But I was stunned, the actual game did not at all live up to the picture painted in my mind by a very talented announcer. I can't stand hockey now, and soccer either my expectations were shattered.

I would rather just watch the game, so here is a little of what I have recorded of the game:

 

 

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“As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.” Lorenzo Snow

We are all very apt to speak of what we have heard, and I am happy to say this morning that what has been said to us is strictly true, so far as I have understanding. Now, supposing that one man has light and knowledge that will circumscribe certain arts and sciences, and another only possessing one-third the information that he does, can this other one be of the same service to the people as he can who has more understanding? The Elders that will undertake to judge President Young and his Counsellors, the Twelve Apostles, and all those men that the Lord our God has given to guide his people, they will stumble. You may go and read the revelation, for you cannot know the importance of this except you have the spirit of revelation within you. [JD 9:40:4]

 

Well, brethren and sisters, try and be Saints. I will try; I have tried many years to live according to the law which the Lord reveals unto me. I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom, as I know the road to my office. It is just as plain and easy. The Lord is in our midst. He teaches the people continually. I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually. In the days of Joseph, revelation was given and written, and the people were driven from city to city and place to place, until we were led into these mountains. Let this go to the people with "Thus saith the Lord," and if they do not obey it, you will see the chastening hand of the Lord upon them. But if they are plead with, and led along like children, we may come to understand the will of the Lord and He may preserve us as we desire. [JD 13:95:1]

Joseph Fielding Smith (Quorum of the Twelve) Adam had a spiritual body until mortality came upon him through the violation of the law under which he was living, but he also had a physical body of flesh and bones…. Now what is a spiritual body? It is one that is quickened by spirit and not by blood…. When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all other creatures.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76-77) Not subject to death when he [Adam] was placed upon the earth, there had to come a change in his body through the partaking of this … fruit that brought blood into his body; and blood became the life of the body instead of spirit. And blood has in it the seeds of death, some mortal element. Mortality was created through the eating of the forbidden fruit. (Fall-Atonement-Resurrection-Sacrament, 125) Why did Adam come here? Not subject to death when he was placed upon the earth, there had to come a change in his body through the partaking of this element--whatever you want to call it, fruit--that brought blood into his body; and blood became the life of the body instead of spirit. And blood has in it the seeds of death, some mortal element. Mortality was created through the eating of forbidden fruit, if you want to call it forbidden, but I think the Lord has made it clear that it was not forbidden. He merely said to Adam, if you want to stay here [in the garden] this is the situation. If so, don't eat it. ("The Sacrament and the Atonement," address given at the LDS institute of religion, Salt Lake City, 14 Jan. 1961, 5) Boyd K. Packer (Quorum of the Twelve) The word fall describes well what transpired when Adam and Eve were driven from the garden. A transformation took place which made them “a little lower than the angels.” (In the Hebrew text, the word “angel” is given as “gods,” see Ps 8:5, Heb 2:7-9.) The bodies formed for mankind became temporal or physical bodies. The scriptures say “the life of all flesh is in the blood thereof” (Lev 17:11-13; Deut 12:23; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith 199-200, 367 Kimball 5-6). After the transformation caused by the Fall, bodies of flesh and bone and blood (unlike our spirit bodies), would not endure forever. Somehow the ingredient blood carried with it a limit to life. It was as though a clock were set and a time given. Thereafter, all living things moved inexorably toward mortal or temporal death. Temporal, I repeat, means temporary. ("The Law and the Light," Book of Mormon Symposium, BYU, 30 October 1988). Harold B. Lee (Quorum of the Twelve) Adam and Eve had now exercised their agency and of their own volition had partaken of the fruit of which they were commanded not to eat,and thus they had become subject to the law of Satan.... Instead of spirit fluid, which had made them not subject to death, there had now come another element. The life of the body is the blood, and in the bloodstream there were to be found the seeds that were to bring about their mortal death. ("The Fall of Man," Lecture Given to Seminary and Institute Teachers, June 23, 1954, Brigham Young University)

 

 

 

 

"I know just as well what to teach this people and just what to say to them and what to do in order to bring them into the celestial kingdom . . . I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon, and it is as good Scripture as they deserve. The people have the oracles of God continually." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 95).

 

“I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.” says Joseph Smith (History of the Church, 6:477; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 16, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois, Grove East of Temple; reported by Thomas Bullock)

 

 

“Eloheim looks round upon the eternity of matter and said to His associates and those that He was pleased to call upon at the time for His counselors, with regard to the Elements, Worlds, Planets, Kingdoms, and Thrones; said He, ‘Yahovah Michael, see that Eternal Matter on all sides, this way and that way; we have already created Worlds upon Worlds, shall we create another World? Yes, go and organize the elements yonder in space…Yahovah Michael go and create a world, make it, organize it, form it; and then put upon it everything in all the variety that you have see[n], that you have been in the habit of being associated with in other worlds, of beasts, birds, fowls, fish, and every insect, and creeping thing, and finally, the whole eternity of element is full of life, bring it together and make of it living creatures’. Yahovah Michael goes down and does as he is told. What I am now going to tell you, will no doubt astonish the whole of you.

When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

 

...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, aBrigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and Godnd she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?

 

Brigham Young 1852-08-15 I will now read a little in this book, called the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, pertaining to the subject we had before us last Sabbath. I will read a part of a short revelation, in order to exhibit some items of doctrine that are not generally understood, although it is before the people. All people who are disposed, have the privilege of reading this book for themselves; for it has been published to the world for some years. The Saints read it and have the privilege of understanding it, if they choose. Still, as I observed, we are in the school and keep learning, and we do not expect to cease learning while we live on earth; and when we pass through the veil, we expect still to continue to learn and increase our fund of information. That may appear a strange idea to some; but it is for the plain and simple reason that we are not capacitated to receive all knowledge at once. We must therefore receive a little here and a little there. [6:286:4]

 

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible… The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me... What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’ So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said. When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)

 

“My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacle as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming ‘great is the mystery of godliness,’ and tell nothing. It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.” (JD 1: 50-52. Capitols in Original.)

 

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegraye and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 56; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

 

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD 6:274-275)

 

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

 

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

 

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

 

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

 

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

 

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

 

How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery? (Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873)

 

"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290

 

"Here let me state to all philosophers of every class upon earth, When you tell me that father Adam was made as we make adobies from the earth, you tell me what I deem an idle tale. When you tell me that the beasts of the field were produced in that manner, you are speaking idle words devoid of meaning. There is no such thing in all the eternities where the Gods dwell.... Adam and Eve are the parents of all pertaining to the flesh, and I would not say that they are not also the parents of our spirits." ( Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, pp. 285, 290)

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 7, pp. 285, 290;

"Some may think what I have said concerning Adam strange, but the period will come when the people will be willing to adopt Joseph Smith as their Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and God! but not the Father of their spirits, for that was our Father Adam."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal History, p. 131, December 11, 1869;

"Before me I see a house full of Eves. What a crowd of reflections the word Eve is calculated to bring up! Eve was the name or title conferred upon our first mother, because she was actually to be the mother of all human beings who should live upon this earth. I am looking upon a congregation designed to be just such beings."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Millennial Star, v. 31, p. 267;

"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revleaed to me – namely that Adam is our father and God – I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who cold tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Deseret News, v. 22, no. 308, June 8, 1873;

"You believe Adam was made of the dust of this earth. This I do not believe, though it is supposed that it is so written in the Bible; but it is not to my understanding. You can write that information to the States, if you please – that I have publicly declared that I do not believe that portion of the Bible as the Christian world do. I never did, and I never want to. What is the reason I do not? Because I have come to understanding, and banished from my mind all the baby stories my mother taught me when I was a child."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 2, p. 6;

"Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation."

• Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 51

"Our Father begot all the spirits that were before any tabernacle was made. When our Father came into the Garden He came with his Celestial body and brought one of his wives with him and ate of the fruit of the Garden until He could beget a Tabernacle. And Adam is Michael God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They ate of this fruit and formed the first Tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with Child it was by the Father and in no other way only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our Elder Brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it was you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost."

• Prophet Brigham Young, as quoted in the Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852;

Apostle Heber C. Kimball (1801 - 1874):

"This brings to my mind the vision that Joseph Smith had, when he saw Adam open the gate of the Celestial City and admit the people one by one. He then saw Father Adam conduct them to the throne one by one, when they were crowned Kings and Priests of God. I merely bring this up to impress upon your mind the principles of order, but it will nevertheless apply to every member of the Church."

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 9, p. 40

"I have learned by experience that there is but one God that pertains to this people, and He is the God that pertains to this earth – the first man. That first man sent his own Son to redeem the world, to redeem his brethren; his life was taken, his blood shed, that our sins might be remitted."

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 4, p. 1

"Some have said that I was very presumptuous to say that Brother Brigham was my God and Savior. Brother Joseph was his God. The one that gave Joseph the keys of the Kingdom was his God, which was Peter. Jesus Christ was his God and the God and Father of Jesus Christ was Adam."

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, as quoted by Wilford Woodruff, in the Journal of Wilford Woodruff, April 10, 1852

Apostle Orson Pratt (1801-1881):

"I have heard brother Brigham say that Adam is the Father of our spirits, and he came here with his resurrected body, to fall for his own children; and I said to him, it leads to an endless number of falls, which leads to sorrow and death: that is revolting to my feelings, even if it were not sustained by revelation."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, "Minutes of the Meeting of the Council of the Twelve in Historian's Upper Room," April 5, 1860, 10 a.m.

Prophet Wilford Woodruff (1807-1898):

"I presented before the meeting the case of O[rson]. Pratt who did not believe in some of the teachings of President Young [Adam-God]and thought President Young reproved him unjustly."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, March 24, 1858

"I met with the Presidency and Twelve in the prayer-circle after prayer....
"Brother G.A. Smith spoke in plainness his feelings concerning some problems of Elder O Pratt's wherein he differed from President Young concerning the creation of Adam out of the dust of the earth and the final consummation of knowledge and many other things."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, April 20, 1856

"President Young followed & made many good remarks . . . He said that our God was Father Adam. He was the Father of the Savior Jesus Christ--Our God was no more or less than Adam . . . Michael the Archangel."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, February 19, 1854

"At meeting of school of the prophets, President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel and he was the father of Jesus Christ and was our God, and Joseph taught this principle."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, December 16, 1867

"Then the subject was brought up concerning Adam being made of the dust of the earth, and Elder Orson Pratt pursued a course of stubbornness and unbelief in what President young said that will destroy him if he does not repent and turn from his evil ways."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, March 11, 1856

"I wish to refer to the first doctrine preached that Adam was our Father and God. In the revelation called the Olive Leaf it says that the Devil gathered together the hosts of Hell, and Michael the Archangel gathered together the hosts of Heaven and he overcame the Devil and his angels, and this is the battle of the great God. Who is this Michael the Archangel? It is Adam who was Michael in the creation of the world...."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, January 24, 1868

"The following is a synopsis of President Young's remarks: Some have thought it strange what I have said concerning Adam, but the period will come when this people of [the] faithful will be willing to adopt Joseph Smith as their Prophet, Seer, Revelator and God, but not the father of their spirits for that was our Father Adam."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, December 11, 1869

"Who begat the Son of God? Infidels say that Jesus was a *******, but let me tell you the truth concerning that matter. Our Father begat all the spirits that were, before any tabernacles were made. When our Father came into the garden, He came with His celestial body and brought one of His wives with Him and ate of the fruit of the garden until He could beget a tabernacle, and Adam is Michael or God and all the God that we have anything to do with. They eat of this fruit and formed the first tabernacle that was formed. And when the Virgin Mary was begotten with child, it was by the Father and in no other way, in no other way, only as we were begotten. I will tell you the truth as it is in God. The world don't know that Jesus Christ our elder brother was begotten by our Father in Heaven. Handle it as you please, it will either seal the damnation or salvation of man. He was begotten by the Father and not by the Holy Ghost."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff's Journal, April 9, 1852

"He [Brigham Young] said that our God was Father Adam. He was the Father of the Savior Jesus Christ – Our God was no more or less than ADAM, Michael the Archangel."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, Feb. 19, 1854

"Brother Cannon said there was a learned Doctor that wanted to be baptized.... He [the doctor] is satisfied that the doctrine of the plurality of God and that Adam is our Father is a true doctrine revealed from God to Joseph and Brigham. For this same doctrine is taught in some of the old Jewish records which have never been in print and I know Joseph Smtih nor Brigham Young have had access to, and the Lord has revealed this doctrine unto them or they could not have taught it. President Young said if all that God had revealed was in fine print it would more than fill this room but very little is written or printed which the Lord has revealed."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, Sept. 4, 1860

"At meeting of School of Prophets: President Young said Adam was Michael the Archangel, and he was the Father of Jesus Christ and was our God and that Joseph taught this principle."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, Dec. 16, 1867

"... I feel thankful for the privilege of speaking a few words to this school. I wish to refer to the first doctrine preached that Adam was our Father and God in the revelation called the olive leaf it says that 'the devil gathered together the hosts of hell and Michael the ark angel gathered together the hosts of heaven and he overcame the devil and his angel and this is the battle of the great God' who is this Michael the ark angel it is Adam who was Michael in the creation of the world..."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, "Minutes of the School of Prophets," Jan. 24, 1868

"I have a request to make of my family & that is that they, especially old people omit calling me their Father. Call me Brother Brigham--I shall feel better when you do for I do not consider that I am worthy of that appellation-- Father in the Priesthood implies the great head, the term would be proper to Father Adam. Jesus had reference to the same thing when he told his disciples not to call any man Father on earth for their Father was in heaven."

- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Wilford Woodruff, February 16, 1847

Apostle Abraham H. Cannon (1859-1896):

"He [George Q. Cannon] believes that Jesus Christ is Jehovah, and that Adam is His father and our God: that under certain unknown conditions the benefits of the Savior's atonement extend to our entire solar system.... He asked me what I understood concerning Mary conceiving the Savior; and as I found no answer, he asked what was to prevent Father Adam from visiting and overshadowing the mother of Jesus. Then I said: 'he must have been a resurrected Being.' 'Yes,' he said, 'and though Christ is said to have been the first fruits of them that slept, yet the Savior said he did nothing but what He had seen His Father do, for He had power to lay down his life and take it up again. Adam, though made of dust, was made, as President Young said, of the dust of another planet than this.' I was very much instructed by the conversation and this days services."

- Apostle Abraham H. Cannon relating Apostle George Q. Cannon's sentiments, in Journal of Abraham H. Cannon, June 23, 1889, BYU Library Special Collections

"At two-o'clock I was at my Quorum meeting where were present all the Presidency and myself, as also Bro. Lyman; Geo. Gibbs, clerk. Bro. Jos. F. Smith was mouth in prayer. Thereafter some conversations followed as to whether Adam is our God or not. There are some in the Church who do not accept of the statement of Pres. Young that such is the case, but to me it seems reasonable to think that Adam has at least much to do with our present condition, and will control greatly our future destiny."

- Apostle Abraham H. Cannon, Journal of Abraham H. Cannon, May 26, 1892, BYU Library Special Collections

Eliza R. Snow (1804 - 1887), plural wife of Joseph Smith, Jr. and later to Brigham Young:

"Brightest among these spirits, and nearest in the circle to our Father and Mother in heaven (the Father being Adam), were Seth, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham, Moses, David, and Jesus Christ-
"These are the sons and daughters of Adam-the Ancient of Days-the Father and God of the whole human family. These are the sons and daughters of Michael, who is Adam, the father of the spirits of all our race. These are the sons and daughters of Eve, the Mother of a world."

- Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, p. 19

"When Brigham Young proclaimed to the nations that Adam was our Father and God, and Eve, his partner, the Mother of a world-both in a mortal and celestial sense-he made the most important revelation ever oracled to the race since the days of Adam himself.
This grand patriarchal revelation is the very key-stone of the 'New Creation' of the heavens and the earth. It gives new meaning to the whole system of theology-"

- Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, p. 196

"Adam is our Father and God. He is the God of the earth."
"Adam is the great Archangel of this creation. He is Michael. He is the Ancient of Days. He is the father of our elder brother, Jesus Christ--the father of him who shall also come as Messiah to reign. He is the father of the spirits as well as the tabernacles of the sons and daughters of man-Adam!"
"Michael is one of the grand mystical names in the works of creations; redemptions and resurrections."
"Michael was a celestial, resurrected being, of another world."
"'In the beginning,' the Gods created the heavens and the earths. In their councils they said, 'Let us make man in our own image.' So, in the likeness of the Fathers, and the Mothers--the Gods--created they man-male and female. When this earth was prepared for mankind, Michael, as Adam, came down. He brought with him one of his wives, and he called her name Eve."
"Adam and Eve are the names of the fathers and mothers of worlds."

- Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, p. 179

"The grand patriarchal economy, with Adam, as a resurrected being, who brought his wife Eve from another world has been very finely elaborated by Brigham from the patriarchal genesis which Joseph conceived."

- Eliza R. Snow, plural wife of Joseph Smith, Women of Mormondom, p. 180

Other Primary Source Quotations:

"Brother Orson Pratt preached on the subject of the resurrection of the dead, that they are to come out of their graves, but said that he did not know how the power of God would operate to raise them up from their graves. Also he did not believe that Father Adam had flesh and bones, when he came to the garden of Eden, but he and his wife Eve were spirits, and that God formed their bodies out of the dust of the ground, and the [sic] became a living souls. He also said that he believed that Jesus Christ and Adam are brothers in the Spirit, and that Adam is not the God that he is praying unto."

- Elder Thomas Evans Jeremy, Sr., Thomas Evans Jeremy Sr. Journal, Church Historical Department, Sept. 30, 1852

"I believe in the principle of obedience; and if I am told that Adam is our Father and our God, I just believe it."

- Elder James A. Little, Millennial Star, v. 16, p. 530

"Upon seeing Brigham Young for the first time and while yet some distance away the Prophet Joseph stopped his chopping on a beech log, straightened up, studied Brigham for a moment, then remarked: 'There comes the greatest man who ever lived to teach the identity of God to the world, and he will yet lead this people.'"

- Elder Charles L. Walker, The Diary of Charles L. Walker, Sept. 1832, p. 134

Note: The above quote appears to be a misquote and the original reference has disappeared. This is likely the correct version and doesn't say anything about the nature of God.

Br Levi W Hancock bore his testimony to the living Oracles of God. Said in the early rise of the church he lived two years with the Prophet Joseph, and one day he was chopping a Beech log with Joseph and saw Br Brigham for the first time. Joseph remarked to him before Brigham came within hearing "There is the greatest man that ever lived to teach redem[p]tion to the world and will yet lead this People.
(2 Diary of Charles Lowell Walker 422 (13 May 1876))

"Another meeting this evening. President B. Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus and the only God to us. That he came to this world in a resurrected body, etc. More hereafter."

- Elder Hosea Stout, Hosea Stout Journal, v. 2, p. 435, Friday, April 9, 1852

"Friday 9th April 1852. Stormy morning. Attended conference. House much crowded, did not stay in the house long. Afternoon was not in because of the crowd. Another meeting this evening. President Brigham Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus and the only God to us. That he came to this world in a resurrected body and etc. more hereafter."

- Elder Hosea Stout, Hosea Stout Journal, v. 2, p. 436, April 9, 1852

"I think these two quotations from such a reliable authority fully solve the question as to the relationship existing between Father Adam and the Savior of the world, and prove beyond question the power that Adam possessed in regard to taking his body again after laying it down--which power he never could have attained unless he had received first a resurrection from the grave to a condition of immortality. We further say that this power was not forfeited when as a celestial being he voluntarily partook of the forbidden fruit, and thereby rendered his body mortal in order that he might become the father of mortal tabernacles, as he was already the father of immortal spirits--thus giving opportunity to the offspring of his own begetting to pass through the ordeals necessary to prepare them for a resurrection from the dead, a celestial glory.
"All that Father Adam did upon this earth, from the time that he took up his abode in the Garden of Eden, was done for his posterity's sake and the success of his former mission as the savior of a world, and afterwards, or now, as the father of a world only added to the glory which he already possessed. If, as the savior of a world, he had the power to lay down his life and take it up again, therefore, as the father of a world which is altogether an advanced condition, we necessarily conclude that the grave was powerless to hold him after that mission was completed..."

- Elder Joseph E. Taylor, Collected Discourses, v. 1, June 2, 1888

"Friday 9th April 1852. Stormy morning. Attended conference. House much crowded, did not stay in the house long. Afternoon was not in because of the crowd. Another meeting this evening. President Brigham Young taught that Adam was the father of Jesus and the only God to us. That he came to this world in a resurrected body and etc. more hereafter."

- Elder Hosea Stout, Hosea Stout Journal, v. 2, p. 436, April 9, 1852

"Relative to the principles recently revealed, we have not the least difficulty. If Adam's being our Father cannot be proved by the Bible, it is all right."

- Elder Joseph Hall, Millennial Star, June 1854, v. 16, p. 483

"Attended conference, a very interesting conference, for at this meeting President Brigham Young said thus, that Adam and Eve were the names of the first man and woman of every earth that was ever organized and that Adam and Eve were the natural father and mother of every spirit that comes to this planet, or that receives tabernacles on this planet, consequently we are brother and sisters, and that Adam was God, our Eternal Father. This as Brother Heber remarked, was letting the cat out of the bag, and it came to pass, I believed every word, for I remembered saying to the Brethren at a meeting of High Priests in Nauvoo, while I was speaking to them under the influence of the Spirit, I remarked thus, that our Father Adam had many wives, and that Eve was only one of them, and that she was our mother, and that she was the mother of the inhabitants of this earth, and I believe that also, but behold ye there were some that did not believe these sayings of the Prophet Brigham, even our Beloved Brother Orson Pratt told me he did not believe it. He said he could prove by the scriptures it was not correct. I felt very sorry to hear Professor Orson Pratt say that. I feared least he should apostatize, but I prayed for him that he might endure unto the end, for I knew verily it was possible that great men might fall. I remembered Apostle John E. Page. I saw him take from his pocket a plug of tobacco and bite a mouthful and put it back. It surprised me. I said old chap you will apostatize, but still I really hoped he would not, but he is gone, and I am very sorry for the poor man."

- Elder Joseph Lee Robinson, Journal of Joseph Lee Robinson, October 6, 1854

"The doctrine preached by Pres. Young for a few years back, wherein he says that Adam is our God – the God we worship – that most of the people believe this – some believe it because the President says so – others because they can find testimony in the Book of Mormon and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. Amasa Lyman stumbled on this, he did not believe it – he did not believe in the atonement of Jesus – Orson Pratt has also told the President that he does not believe it. This is not the way to act. We should not suffer ourselves to entertain one doubt. We are not accountable on points of doctrine if the President makes a statement. It is not our prerogative to dispute it. He is only accountable in points of doctrine. I have heard President Young avow the truth of Adam being our Father and God but have never heard him argue the question at all."

- Elder Abraham B. Smoot, "Minutes of the School of the Prophets," pp. 37-42, June 8, 1868

"I thought I would speak briefly in relation to Adam being our God. Since the year 1852 when the President first spoke on this subject. I have frequently endeavored to reconcile what I have read with regard to this matter. I believe what the President says on the subject although it comes in contract with all our tradition. I have not any doubt in my mind but that Adam is our God. Who his God and Father may be, I have no knowledge. President Kimball spoke on this question recently and very plainly illustrated the character and relationship of our Father and God."

- Elder A.F. McDonald, "Minutes of the School of the Prophets," pp. 37-42, June 8, 1868

"I am not disposed to question the discrepancies on the question of doctrine; if we live faithful all will become clear to us. We cannot become united only as we get united in understanding. When I first heard the doctrine of Adam being our Father and God, I was favorably impressed – enjoyed, and hailed it as a new revelation. It appeared reasonable to me, as the Father of our spirits that he should introduce us here. And what we do not see is only evidence that we have not the light necessary."

- Elder George G. Bywater, "Minutes of the School of Prophets," pp. 37-42, June 8, 1868

"At Manti, Wednesday 25. I attended meeting, Orson Hyde preached to us, and he told us that what we heard before that Adam is our God, we had a splendid good meeting.
"At Manti, Jan. 25th Orson Hyde preached to us here in Manti, that, Adam is our God for this planet."

- Elder Jan Christian Anderson Weibye, Jan Christian Anderson Weibye Daybooks, Daybook 1st, p. 131, Jan. 25, 1871

"Brother Allred preaches at Manti on Adam as God, with the following remarks in part:
"Adam was buried by God and was only dead like a twinkling of a eye, and his God exalted him immediately. Mary was sealed to Adam; and unless we have two wives, we can never be Gods.
"Adam will worship his god and we will worship Adam, and our children will worship us."

- Elder Jan Christian Anderson Weibye, Jan Christian Anderson Weibye Daybooks, Daybook 5th, pp. 20-22

"President Joseph Fielding Smith said: The Lord did not give us the complete story of the creation of Adam and Eve because He knew the world would not accept it."

- Elder John A. Tvedtnes, Journal of John A. Tvedtnes, Friday, June 30, 1961

"Our Father Adam---The Extract from the Journal of Discourses (vol. 1:50) may startle some of our readers, but we would wish them to recollect that in this last dispensation God will send forth, by his servants, things new as well as old, until man is perfected in the truth."

- Mission President Samuel W. Richards, Millennial Star, v. 15, p. 780

"Conference commenced on the 6 and continued until the 11, it was heled in the new tabernacle, adjourned until the 6 of next October We had the best Conference that I ever attended during the time of the Conference President Brigham Young said that our spirits ware begotten before that Adam came to the Earth and that Adam helped to make the Earth, that he had a Celestial boddy when he came to the Earth and that he brought his wife or one of his wives with him, and that Eave was allso a Celestial being, that they eat of the fruit of the ground until they begat children from the Earth, he said that Adam was the onley God that we would have, and that Christ was not begotten of the Holy Gost, but of the Father Adam, that Christ, was our elder brother. The argument that he used to shoe that Christ was not begotten by the holy gost, was a caution to the Elders that when they should go to preach the Gospel, to be careful how they laid their hands on the sisters, for the reseption of the holy Gost, lest the holy Gost should get them with Child and that it would be laid to them."

- Elder Samuel H. Rodgers, Journal of Samuel H. Rodgers, v. 1, p. 179; BYU Special Collections

"At Special Priesthood meeting at which the official statement of the First Presidency regarding the teachings of Adam-God is presented, Prest. Jos. F. Smith then said that he was in full accord with what Prest. Penrose had said and that Prest. Brigham Young when he delivered that sermon only expressed his own views and that they were not corroborated by the word of the Lord in the stand works of the Church. The Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants were voted upon by the Church convened in a Conference and organized in various Quorums of the Priesthood who voted by Quorums after which the body of the Church were asked to vote to sustain the above books as the Standards of the Church....
"Now all doctrine if it can't be established by these standards is not to be taught or promulgated by members. That those Patriarchs who persisted in teaching these things and did not stop when told to do so should be handled by their Bishops and their names sent up to the High Councils for further action and be cut off."

- Elder Thomas A. Clawson, Journal of Thomas A. Clawson, 1912-1917 Book, pp. 69-70, April 8, 1912

"Brother Horne and I chatted again tonight about the Gospel and the Adam-God Doctrine, as we have done many times before. Brother Horne, who grew up in Salt Lake City and was the son of Richard Horne and grandson of Joseph Horne said, in reference to the Adam-God Doctrine, that when he first went through the Temple for his Endowment in 1902 before going on his mission he was surprised to hear the teachings during the Temple ceremony in the sermon before the veil, that 'Adam was our God' and that 'he came here with Eve, one of his wives.' Also it was taught that 'Eve bore our spirits' (i.e. the spirits of all men). He asked his father about it but he declined to give any opinion about it. After Brother Horne returned from his mission a few years later, in 1905, he noted these teachings had been removed from the Temple ceremony. He feels that they were left over from Brigham Young's influence, but that the himself couldn't believe such doctrine. He thinks perhaps Brigham just got off in his speculation."

- Patriarch J. Arthur Horne, The Elder's Journal, v. 1, by C. Jess Groesbeck, p. 29

"Pres. Jensen referred to the condition of some of the High Priests in the Malad Ward who were contending one with another concerning some point of doctrine, which they did not understand. The point in dispute being, was Adam was God, some taking the affirmation and some the negative of the question. That was not right. We ought to allow these matters to rest until our minds were better informed regarding them."

- "Minutes of the High Priests Quorum," Feb. 24, 1880, p. 86 (Box Elder Stake)

"ADAM, THE FATHER AND GOD OF THE HUMAN FAMILY
"The above sentiment appeared in Star No. 48, a little to the surprise of some of its readers; and while the sentiment may have appeared blasphemous to the ignorant, it has no doubt given rise to some serious reflections with the more candid and comprehensive mind. A few reasonable and scriptural ideas upon this subject may be profitable at the present time.
"Then Adam is really God! And why not? If there are Lords many and Gods many, as the scriptures inform us, why not our Father Adam be one of them?"

- Mission President Samuel W. Richards, Millennial Star, v. 15, p. 801

"It has been said that Adam is the God and Father of the human family, and persons are perhaps in fear and great trouble of mind, lest they have to acknowledge him as such in some future day. For our part we would much rather acknowledge Adam to be our Father than hunt for another and take up with the devil. Whoever is acknowledged Father must have the rights and honor that belong to him. No man may ever expect to attain to more than he is willing others should enjoy. If these things have power to disturb the pure mind, we apprehend that even greater troubles than these may arise before mankind learn all the particulars of Christ's incarnation---Whatever may prove to be the facts in the case it certainly would exhibit a great degree of weakness on the part of anyone to indulge in fears and anxieties about that which he has no power to control. Facts still remain facts whether kept or revealed. If there is a way pointed out by which all beings who come into this world can lay the foundation for rule, and a never-ending increase of kingdoms and dominions, by which they can become Gods, we are all willing the Lord Jesus Christ should enjoy them all as any other being, ascribing honor and power to him as their God. The Apostle informs us that those who are redeemed shall be like Jesus; not to say, however, that they shall be wifeless and childless, and without eternal affections. It should be borne in mind that these wonderful mysteries, as they are supposed to be, are only mysteries because of the ignorance of men; and when men and women are troubled in spirit over these things which come to light through the proper channel of intelligence, they only betray their weakness, ignorance, and folly."

- Mission President Samuel W. Richards, Millennial Star, v. 15, p. 842

"It has been said that Adam is the God and Father of the human family, and persons are perhaps in fear and great trouble of mind, lest they have to acknowledge him as such in some future day. For our part we would much rather acknowledge Adam to be our Father, than hunt for another, and take up with the devil."

- Millennial Star, v. 15, p. 825

"… every Knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that he [Adam] is the God of the whole earth. Then will the words of the Prophet Brigham, when speaking of Adam, be fully realized..."

- Millennial Star, v. 17, p. 195

"... some of the officers have not met in council for three years. They are lacking faith on one principle – the looast 'cat that was let out of the bag.' Polygamy had been gotten over pretty well, that cloud had vanished away, but they are troubled about Adam being our Father and God."

- Millennial Star, v. 16, p. 482

"Concerning the item of doctrine alluded to by Elder Caffall and others, viz., that Adam is our Father and God, I have to say do not trouble yourselves...If, as Elder Caffall remarked, there are those who are waiting at the door of the Church for this objection to be removed, tell such, the Prophet and Apostle Brigham has declared it, and that it is the word of the Lord."

- President F.D. Richards, Millennial Star, v. 16, August 26, 1854, p. 334

"The introduction of the Law of Celestial Marriage, which in its operations, will revolutionize all our political, religious, and domestic arrangements; and the announcement of the position of Adam, our great progenitor, occupies among the Gods; have marked your Presidency as a special epoch in the history of the British Mission."

- Millennial Star, June 1854, v. 16, p. 629

"The Seer, the 'Great First Cause," and certain articles by Orson Pratt on the Holy Spirit were disowned by the Church. The people of the Church were asked to destroy his questionable writings."

- Millennial Star, v. 27, p. 698, Nov. 1865

A Voice of Dissent:

"President John Taylor

Sir,
Duty imperatively demands that as I am about to withdraw from the Church over which you preside I make known to you and to all whom it may concern the reasons which have compelled me to take this step.

When I joined the Mormon Church a little over 5 years ago I believed implicitly as I do now that the Bible was the word of God and the Rule of Faith and while the 'Book of Mormon' and 'Doctrine and Covenants' were referred to as additional revelation they no where contradicted the Bible but rather established it.

Before joining the Church I became acquainted with Elders Wm. Budge, John Nicholson, Francis Cope, james L. Bunting, and others. Elder Nicholson preached from the Bible only and almost entirely dwelt on what is known as the first principles claiming that these principles were what had been introduced by our Savior and preached by his immediate apostles but that men had wandered away from them and had fallen into darkness and superstition. I had heard a great many things about the Mormons that were nothing to their credit consequently the eminent social qualities and gentlemanly conduct of Elder Cope won my admiration and esteem. I was greatly pleased to find him a monogamist for while I could not deny that many good men in the past had had more wives than one, I never for one moment assented to the idea that there was any virtue in such a proceeding or that it merited or would receive any reward.

I joined your Church on the 20th of May 1879 and during the first 2 years of my membership I faithfully adhered to it and would have given my life to defend it, during all this time I never heard of Adam being God, never heard of Blood Atonement, never heard of polygamy being required of all men before they could attain to highest glory. Never dreamed that Brigham Young or any one else coolly threw the Bible overboard and preached whatever they pleased which I was bound to accept as revelations of God. I do not and cannot cease these men of having told me anything absolutely false, but they certainly withheld the horrible. I was in the Church some five years before I heard or knew anything about those things – doctrines against which my soul revolts...

I imagined that I had come to the kingdom of God to help build it up! What did I find? I found that God, the God of the Bible is not even worshipped by the Church over which you preside, the God you worship is Adam. Brigham Young teaches I quote his words, 'When our Father Adam came into the Garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body and brought Eve one of his wives with him. He is our Father and our God and the ONLY God with whom we have to do.' At first I could not bring myself to believe that this doctrine was accepted by the Church, but on careful inquiry found to my horror and astonishment that it was really so. It is true a great many know nothing about it and are simply in ignorance. Those who do not know accept it as far more to be relied on than any portion of the Bible, for say they the Bible has been translated over and over again and may be wrong but this is the direct teaching of a Great Prophet.

I reject this as abominable and horrible idolatry and give it as one reason why I cannot remain in your Church."

- "Letter to Pres. John Talyor from Scott Anderson," Sept. 22, 1884

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Adam is Not God

B.H. Roberts, Seventy and LDS Church Historian (1869 – 1965):

"As a matter of fact, the 'Mormon' church does not teach that doctrine [Adam-God]."

- B.H. Roberts, Quorum of the Seventy, LDS Church Historian, Deseret News, July 23, 1921

"Some of the sectarian ministers are saying that we 'Mormons' are ashamed of the doctrine announced by President Brigham Young to the effect that Adam will thus be God of this world. No, friends, it is not that we are ashamed of that doctrine. If you see any change come over our countenances when this doctrine is named, it is surprise, astonishment, that anyone at all capable of grasping the largeness and extent of the universe – the grandeur of existence and the possibilities in man for growth, for progress, should be lean of intellect, should have such a paucity of understanding, as to call it in question at all. That is what our change of countenance means – not shame – for the doctrine Brigham Young taught."

- B.H. Roberts, LDS Church Historian, Mormon Doctrine on Deity, pp. 42-43

Apostle LeGrand Richards (1886 - 1983):

"Your third question: 'Is the Adam-God Doctrine, as taught in the Journal of Discourses, true?' Answer: No."

- Apostle LeGrand Richards, Letter, dated May 11, 1966

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 - 1985):

"Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the Father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.... Wise gospel students do not build their philosophies of life on the quotations of individuals, even though those quotations come from presidents of the Church."

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Apostle, "Letter to Mr. Eugene England," dated Feb. 19, 1981

 

 

So, for me, after watching the game, Adam as the Father of our spirits and physical Father of Jesus, the part that  detractors seem to object to the most, while important is a small part of what was being taught. and Brigham's lament over his inability to overcome the unbelief of the saints on this one issue frustrated his desire to teach the saints greater truths. Things that were mentioned and talked around but not really expounded.

I think it is that unbelief that lead to these truths being "withdrawn" like the higher priesthood was withdrawn from the Israelites and they were given The Levites and the Law of Moses. The Higher priesthood was not taken off the earth, just as these teachings were not removed, but not offered to the main body.  If those of the main body mindset would approach the GAs on these topics, most likely was not motivated by honest seeking where as those honestly seeking would study the actually game footage and approach the Lord instead of GAs.

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

That's helpful. We might be closer than I thought. I had a bunch of replies in the other thread but for some reason I can't post in that thread and the replies I did post in the techne thread disappeared. But if you are more process most of them are moot anyway. I was confused because you keep talking state which to me is anti-process.

That's why you gotta let go of all those verbal categories in your mind and look at what is before you. 

Here read this- it is short and perhaps simplistic but I like it a lot for the qualia vs physicalism perspective .  This describes it well

http://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil201/Jackson.pdf

Quote

I am what is sometimes known as a "qualia freak." I think that there are certain features of the bodily sensations especially, but also of certain perceptual experiences, which no amount of purely physical information includes. Tell me everything physical there is to tell about what is going on in a living brain, the kind of states, their functional role, their relation to what goes on at other times and in other brains, and so on and so forth, and be I as clever as can be in fitting it all together, you won't have told me about the hurtfulness of pains, the itchiness of itches, pangs of jealousy, or about the characteristic experience of tasting a lemon, smelling a rose, hearing a loud noise or seeing the sky.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by mfbukowski

[co-eternal]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Fundamentalism was raised this time because you specifically referred to a teaching popular in fundamentalist circles, but not in the Church.
If you didn't get it from fundamentalism, that's fine.  But you can't complain about a connection being made.

 Ok, let me be clearer.  You did imply it clearly.  And yes, it is something to think of.  I have mentioned it on the board before, and most members find it offensive for one reason or another.

I can and I will complain about it, it offends me.

Or did you just infer it?

Most members find most anything that does not have direct roots to what they learned in Primary of the discussions offensive.

So i will put and end to any inferences or charges of implying something.

I do not believe Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost, I know he is. He has said that in mortality and he has confirmed that to me.

[co-eternal]

I will tell you exactly how it was confirmed to me. My wife and I went to the temple one day. while waiting in the chapel we were approached and asked if we would be willing to do sealings instead of an endowment. We were delighted and agreed. After we were done, we left the room and the first thing I saw was a Picture of Joseph Smith. And I was flooded with gratitude that pictures of all three members of the Godhead were in the temple and why not, all three had families and had lived on the earth as well. That is my testimony.

[co-eternal]

I should explain why it offends me to have fundamentalism always associated with "unfamiliar" doctrine.

I am not offended by the fundamentalist people, in many ways they live their religion by and large better than we. And by and large, they are honest and honorable people but they do not have the truths that we do. But they cling to some reveled truths that we have forgotten. I've said I don't study them and I don't. But I have read some stories from some GAs who have worked with them on business.

What offends me is the implication that if the fundamentalists believe it, it must be false doctrine and you are like if not actually fundamentalist.

That is offensive to me and probably offensive to a fundamentalist.

[co-eternal]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Your understanding of Brigham's teachings seems very similar to my own.

I am still curious about the Adam-God Theory paper by apostates that you reject and who authored it.

that bares little resemblance to what I believe. what I believe is:

Generation of time n-3 Godhead  - Elohim's Grandfather|Elohim's Father|Elohim

Generation of time n-2 Godhead  - Elohim's Father|Elohim|Adam

Generation of time n-1 Godhead  - Elohim|Adam|Jehovah

Generation of time n   Godhead  - Adam|Jehovah|Joseph

Generation of time n+1 Godhead  - Jehovah|Joseph|Joseph's Son

Generation of time n+2 Godhead  - Joseph|Joseph's Son|Joseph's Grandson

Now remember that Elohiem, Adam, Jehovah are name titles - names of roles not names of personages but they are used here to identify personages based on their role in this generation of time.

[clarkgoble]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's why you gotta let go of all those verbal categories in your mind and look at what is before you. 

Here read this- it is short and perhaps simplistic but I like it a lot for the qualia vs physicalism perspective .  This describes it well

I don't disagree with that. I think quail limits us though. That's not all there is.

[clarkgoble]

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

It is simple, but there are more basics to it than the drawing implies. Current doctrine aside, it doesn't mesh with key passages from the Book of Moses. For example: Adam-God’s exalted father is not the Father of the Only Begotten (as Moses 6:52, 59 and 62 say he is), but Adam-God is. Unless Adam'-God's exalted father is speaking to Adam about the relationship between the Father and the Son as if he were Adam, which doesn't make sense (a reverse divine investiture of authority?), these verses do not make sense according to the Adam-God teaching. Also, if we can all become sons of the Man of Holiness (Adam-God's exalted father) the same way Adam did (verse 68), then we are all also previously immortal gods that are presently re-mortalized, fallen gods. I think that is where the multiple mortal probations idea comes from.

My sense is that those who believe it don't care that Joseph taught something completely different as do the scriptures. Nor are they interesting in seeing ways to reconcile it. It's Brigham (and to a certain degree even more Heber Kimball) alone.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, co-eternal said:

that bares little resemblance to what I believe. what I believe is:

Generation of time n-3 Godhead  - Elohim's Grandfather|Elohim's Father|Elohim

Generation of time n-2 Godhead  - Elohim's Father|Elohim|Adam

Generation of time n-1 Godhead  - Elohim|Adam|Jehovah

Generation of time n   Godhead  - Adam|Jehovah|Joseph

Generation of time n+1 Godhead  - Jehovah|Joseph|Joseph's Son

Generation of time n+2 Godhead  - Joseph|Joseph's Son|Joseph's Grandson

Now remember that Elohiem, Adam, Jehovah are name titles - names of roles not names of personages but they are used here to identify personages based on their role in this generation of time.

This is a good example of taking what Brigham taught and overextending it beyond anything that has actually been revealed.

It may be true, but it goes beyond the doctrine taught.  I prefer to stick to the specific revealed doctrine, such as was explained in the Lecture at the Veil.  All speculation is fun, but it has limits.