Spiritual self reliance

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, rongo said:

I could see it in extreme circumstances, but in my experience, this approaches zero. When it is clear to people that there will be no backstop, no safety net, then they magically find work. Or relocate. Or family that you were told absolutely cannot help . . . helps (usually, when people say they have exhausted resources, they haven't tried family. The Church is far less embarrassing to go to). 

The problem with government or church assistance is it is very, very hard to have it be short-term while people are back on their feet and don't need it any more. And you are an ogre for teaching and adhering to welfare principles. Definitely not the fun part of being a bishop. 

I guess that hasn't been my experience.  I've known quite a few people who have used government assistance temporarily.  But I do understand what you are saying.  I just think that teaching that someone should never use government help makes no sense.  

[ksfisher]

6 hours ago, rongo said:

Well, a generation ago, the Brethren would have said that it is automatically and always spiritually damaging. That's why the quote (now in disuse) was that people are to muster resources in this order: 1) self 2) family 3) the Church 4) not in any case the government, ever.

Yes, this has changed in our day. But I think that the eternal principle remains the same. This is my experience in working with people. 

The counsel to rely on ones self, then family, and then the church has not changed.

"When Church members are doing all they can to provide for themselves but cannot meet their basic needs, generally they should first turn to their families for help. When this is not sufficient or feasible, the Church stands ready to help." (Handbook 2 6.1.1)

https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/welfare-principles-and-leadership?lang=eng

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I do not like it because one so often has to cede some control of their lives to the government. My current wife had to "go on the dole" when her husband left her for another woman when she was six months pregnant with her last child and with five other children. Once that happened she was effectively trapped, and looked down upon and criticized by so many people, even in her local ward. When she attempted to make some extra money to help make ends meet, and faithfully reported a ten dollar sale of a cake she had made, her food stamps were decreased by thirty dollars and her monthly stipend was decreased by thirty dollars the next month.

Temporary assistance because of a catastrophe or such is fine, but anything that would cause me to have to cede more control of my life to an entity that has shown little competence in administrating just about anything would worry me.

Glenn

Stigma from church members towards those getting help is a church/charity/pride issue and not a government or welfare issue.

The government, otoh, needs to get much smarter about encouraging people to earn money to lower costs.  Rather than making it a triple loss, deduct 2/3s of money earned.  That way for every $10 earned, the worker gets an extra $3.33 and the government has saved 6.66.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

anytime!

I recently went on vacation to Puerto Vallarta. We went on a couple of excursions and went to some shows at an all inclusive resort where there were many Canadians. During a show they yelled out to clap to where we were from when they called it out. The Canadians were far more exuberant than the rest of us. And they were everywhere. 

I'd love to live there right now, if my family could move with me! I especially like the their prime minister, haha. Anyway, how does Canada stay out of all the mucky muck that goes on in the world? And America gets into a lot of wars and gets a bad name in places. I'm old enough that I should know history better so forgive me if Canada is more involved than I think.

[pogi]

8 hours ago, rongo said:

It was changed in the 2000s. Quietly, and without fanfare, but it was there and then, suddenly, all materials on welfare said to avail yourself of any government and community welfare you could before turning to the Church. 

Why is it less self-reliant to get a hand out from the government instead of the church?

8 hours ago, rongo said:

I think the goal is for people not to need SNAP, WIC, county cash assistance, or Section 8 housing. 

 I think you are right, and that is still the goal.  The only difference is that they removed the word "never", as in "we should never turn to the government" has been removed. 

Self reliance teaches us to work towards being productive, but it does not counsel us to starve and never ask for help if circumstances are against us.  Starving is not self-reliant.  Self reliance would require us to ask for assistance until we can get back up on our feet. 

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I recently went on vacation to Puerto Vallarta. We went on a couple of excursions and went to some shows at an all inclusive resort where there were many Canadians. During a show they yelled out to clap to where we were from when they called it out. The Canadians were far more exuberant than the rest of us. And they were everywhere. 

I'd love to live there right now, if my family could move with me! I especially like the their prime minister, haha. Anyway, how does Canada stay out of all the mucky muck that goes on in the world? And America gets into a lot of wars and gets a bad name in places. I'm old enough that I should know history better so forgive me if Canada is more involved than I think.

We're too cold and apathetic to fight anyone!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been in the US and I'm sure Americans are like this too but you could run into other Canadians and they are instantly your best friends, even though you could come from a totally different part of the country-besides they can give you a ride home

 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Duncan

[Avatar4321]

Amazing how in a talk about spiritual and emotional self reliance, we are discussing government assistance for temporal self reliance

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

We're too cold and apathetic to fight anyone!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been in the US and I'm sure Americans are like this too but you could run into other Canadians and they are instantly your best friends, even though you could come from a totally different part of the country-besides they can give you a ride home

 

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Amazing how in a talk about spiritual and emotional self reliance, we are discussing government assistance for temporal self reliance

Sorry if I've not stayed on topic. I will just say that when I was a child, my dad was supporting my family with three jobs. His regular job during the day, selling campers at night and a short stint of trying to sell insurance. There were six kids to feed, and we had to get help through church welfare, but only for a short time. So at least my parents were trying. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Tacenda

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry if I've not stayed on topic. I will just say that when I was a child, my dad was supporting my family with three jobs. His regular job during the day, selling campers at night and a short stint of trying to sell insurance. There were six kids to feed, and we had to get help through church welfare, but only for a short time. So at least my parents were trying. 

I dont mind. I just find these things interesting

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I recently went on vacation to Puerto Vallarta. We went on a couple of excursions and went to some shows at an all inclusive resort where there were many Canadians. During a show they yelled out to clap to where we were from when they called it out. The Canadians were far more exuberant than the rest of us. And they were everywhere. 

I'd love to live there right now, if my family could move with me! I especially like the their prime minister, haha. Anyway, how does Canada stay out of all the mucky muck that goes on in the world? And America gets into a lot of wars and gets a bad name in places. I'm old enough that I should know history better so forgive me if Canada is more involved than I think.

There aren't enough Canadians to go out into the world and get a bad name.  Population is 10% of US population. GDP is less than 10% of US GDP. Active military is 5.6% of US military in number of troops (Canada's Navy consists of 16 warships capable of bluewater operation -- versus around 272 for the US Navy).

That being said, what Canada lacks in quantity is made up somewhat in quality. As a US citizen, and a former landed immigrant of Canada for a few years once upon a time, I love Canada!  

However, I don't think much of Mr. Trudeau.  

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

There aren't enough Canadians to go out into the world and get a bad name.  Population is 10% of US population. GDP is less than 10% of US GDP. Active military is 5.6% of US military in number of troops (Canada's Navy consists of 16 warships capable of bluewater operation -- versus around 272 for the US Navy).

That being said, what Canada lacks in quantity is made up somewhat in quality. As a US citizen, and a former landed immigrant of Canada for a few years once upon a time, I love Canada!  

However, I don't think much of Mr. Trudeau.  

lots share that opinion!

[rpn]

Depending on someone else for your needs that you are able to manage yourself with lower expectations and your own efforts is always damaging.

But government programs aren't always damaging.    I think the change came at the point where the church realized that some of the programs were helping and not automatically hurting, and that it was unrealistic for the church to shoulder the entire burden when there were government programs set up to help.

I also think that unemployment insurance, and even Social Security and Social Security disability are NOT the dole in any way.   They are insurance programs (however unfunded) that you pay for and have every right to expect will be there (though of course in the US it is a fatal flaw in one's retirement plannning to count on it).

 

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, rpn said:

Depending on someone else for your needs that you are able to manage yourself with lower expectations and your own efforts is always damaging.

But government programs aren't always damaging.    I think the change came at the point where the church realized that some of the programs were helping and not automatically hurting, and that it was unrealistic for the church to shoulder the entire burden when there were government programs set up to help.

I also think that unemployment insurance, and even Social Security and Social Security disability are NOT the dole in any way.   They are insurance programs (however unfunded) that you pay for and have every right to expect will be there (though of course in the US it is a fatal flaw in one's retirement plannning to count on it).

 

Yeah, if I were trying to live on my social security alone I'd still be working instead of being somewhat comfortable.  Or living very very sparingly.

[Thinking]

On 11/17/2017 at 8:56 AM, JAHS said:

Hey our taxes pay for it so why not use it?  Of course the problem is that many people use much more of it than they ever paid in taxes. 

My wife became diabetic during her first pregnancy (she is now type 1) while we were both students at BYU. We found out quickly that the insurance we purchased through BYU was not very good. A social worker visited us and set us up with Medicaid and WIC. Within a year of our daughter's birth, we had both graduated and I had a teaching job with benefits. I went to the WIC office and thanked them for their service and told them that we didn't need the help anymore. The receptionist said that she thought she could figure out a way to keep us on WIC. I sometimes wonder how many people are receiving help who don't need it.

[Jeanne]

On 11/18/2017 at 4:04 PM, Duncan said:

lots share that opinion!

Just curious Duncan...I have always wanted to ask you...how do you feel about Trudeau...if this is a personal thing...disregard.  I  find him so nice and personable but that doesn't jibe with some of his politics.  Thanks in advance and sorry to derail.

[ksfisher]

On 12/1/2017 at 1:04 AM, Thinking said:

My wife became diabetic during her first pregnancy (she is now type 1) while we were both students at BYU. We found out quickly that the insurance we purchased through BYU was not very good. A social worker visited us and set us up with Medicaid and WIC. Within a year of our daughter's birth, we had both graduated and I had a teaching job with benefits. I went to the WIC office and thanked them for their service and told them that we didn't need the help anymore. The receptionist said that she thought she could figure out a way to keep us on WIC. I sometimes wonder how many people are receiving help who don't need it.

It seems as if with many government programs many who qualify don't really need them, while others who do need them don't qualify. 

[Jeanne]

39 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

It seems as if with many government programs many who qualify don't really need them, while others who do need them don't qualify. 

I am finding out that this is so true.  How do we change this?? 

[ksfisher]

34 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am finding out that this is so true.  How do we change this?? 

When you ask a question you really ask a question, don't you. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

It seems as if with many government programs many who qualify don't really need them, while others who do need them don't qualify. 

59 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am finding out that this is so true.  How do we change this?? 

Wait, what?  The government is inefficient with our money???

 

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

When you ask a question you really ask a question, don't you. 

 

yeah...I do...it ticks me off...because my middle class self makes too much for help....but could use some assistance on important things..

[Meerkat]

On 11/17/2017 at 8:21 AM, rongo said:

Because it's spiritually damaging to people.

I get why the Church changed. It shifts a significant amount of drain onto local and federal governments. But that, in itself, is not living according to self-reliance principles. 

The Church reputation for taking care of it's own may have resulted in people joining for the welfare system.  I remember one family on welfare.  When the Relief Society President was assigned to inspect their cupboards, they were full of DI food.  Their large freezer was full of DI meat.  When the head of household was asked about it, he said "We're just like anybody else.  We need a two years food supply."  When he was taken off the food program for awhile, he and his wife left the Church.  He would slowly drive by my home (and perhaps others,) blowing smoke out the window.  He sure showed us.

That was during a time of deep recession.  The Bishop's storehouse graph had gone almost literally up the wall and through the roof.  Jobs were hard to come by.  The school sent a note home with our children that they would like to provide free lunch for them.  My attitude was "Am I not a man?  Can I not provide for my own family? Will you take that away from me?  No!  But thank you.  Sandwiches, vegies, chips and milk are adequate for now."  I believed Paul when he said "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Tim. 5:8  I didn't feel like an infidel (a man without faith.)   I had my health and a sound mind.  That was a time when we proved the Lord, that His promises were real.  There were times of wrestling faith.  "If you can just give me an idea, I know I can provide."  The ideas came.  We learned about fasting and prayer, working through depression.  Those were great times that defined us as a family.  We were put on our wits, and our needs, though very modest, were miraculously met and we survived.  

We did receive help from the Church for a couple of short periods.  And we worked in the storehouse, and did food deliveries.  Working there was like attending the Temple.  Those brief times took the pressure off and lifted our depression.   I believe that was what the welfare program was for.   I see the health and faith we had through those times was a gift.  And I recognize that not everyone is so fortunate.  So we help each other as best we can.  

On 11/17/2017 at 3:07 PM, Calm said:

It was that way up in Canada and elsewhere.  You wouldn't have enough leftover after taxes to totally reject government assistance.  Taxes mean you are paying for the service, why not use it?

The issue of social engineering and hard to bear tax burdens complicates the problem.  That may also be what the Church was finding as we grew into a worldwide institution.  Here in Washington, for example, Seattle has just determined that all high school graduates will be entitled to free tuition.  Nice.  Where does the money come from?  It comes from my neighbor's pocket.  And mine, making it difficult to pay the cost of medical insurance that has nearly doubled this year.  When the government does that to an area, receiving benefits may be the only reasonable thing to do until the government steps back and let's the market work.  The Church cannot carry everyone that way.  And neither can society for long.  We must do what we can, use our wits, develop our faith, and make something happen if we have the health and strength to do so.  The power is in us, in my opinion.  I believe many of us can make room to help and hire others through our enterprise.  The Lord is full of ideas.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Meerkat

[rongo]

7 hours ago, Meerkat said:

The Church reputation for taking care of it's own may have resulted in people joining for the welfare system.  I remember one family on welfare.  When the Relief Society President was assigned to inspect their cupboards, they were full of DI food.  Their large freezer was full of DI meat.  When the head of household was asked about it, he said "We're just like anybody else.  We need a two years food supply."  When he was taken off the food program for awhile, he and his wife left the Church.  He would slowly drive by my home (and perhaps others,) blowing smoke out the window.  He sure showed us.

I've told the missionaries to *never* suggest to investigators that they talk to me about temporal needs. I have found that it *never* works out as far as being baptized and staying active if receiving assistance is part of their conversion --- even if they aren't "welfare converts," per se. 

That was during a time of deep recession.  The Bishop's storehouse graph had gone almost literally up the wall and through the roof.  Jobs were hard to come by.  The school sent a note home with our children that they would like to provide free lunch for them.  My attitude was "Am I not a man?  Can I not provide for my own family? Will you take that away from me?  No!  But thank you.  Sandwiches, vegies, chips and milk are adequate for now."  I believed Paul when he said "

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." 1 Tim. 5:8  I didn't feel like an infidel (a man without faith.)   I had my health and a sound mind.  That was a time when we proved the Lord, that His promises were real.  There were times of wrestling faith.  "If you can just give me an idea, I know I can provide."  The ideas came.  We learned about fasting and prayer, working through depression.  Those were great times that defined us as a family.  We were put on our wits, and our needs, though very modest, were miraculously met and we survived. 

That is the Lord's Way. Self, family, then the Church, in that order. There is spiritual power in that, and it is spiritually damaging when this is circumvented (when people aren't required to fully exhaust their own and their family's (including extended) capabilities and resources). I have found that everyone claims that family can't help, but that when the Church doesn't ---- then family magically is able to help. People don't want to ask family, and find it less-embarrassing to go to the Church. I have a brother whom I had counseled to let his car go (he can't make the payments), and he was sick about what he would do then. Family can't help, etc. I let him borrow my car for some necessary work trips. Lo and behold, he now has a Prius ---- provided by extended family. I think the blessings are greater when done in the Lord's Way, instead of the Church being the automatic backstop and safety net.

We did receive help from the Church for a couple of short periods.  And we worked in the storehouse, and did food deliveries.  Working there was like attending the Temple.  Those brief times took the pressure off and lifted our depression.   I believe that was what the welfare program was for.   I see the health and faith we had through those times was a gift.  And I recognize that not everyone is so fortunate.  So we help each other as best we can. 

I hope no one gets the impression that I look down on recipients. It is there for bona fide need when all resources have been exhausted. But it is also supposed to be a) temporary, and b) not lifestyle-sustaining. For most recipients, the expectation is that it will be longer than temporary, and they expect to be able to maintain and retain a desired level of lifestyle. Your experience shows the potential for the Lord's Way to uplift and strengthen.

The issue of social engineering and hard to bear tax burdens complicates the problem.  That may also be what the Church was finding as we grew into a worldwide institution.  Here in Washington, for example, Seattle has just determined that all high school graduates will be entitled to free tuition.  Nice.  Where does the money come from?  It comes from my neighbor's pocket.  And mine, making it difficult to pay the cost of medical insurance that has nearly doubled this year.  When the government does that to an area, receiving benefits may be the only reasonable thing to do until the government steps back and let's the market work.  The Church cannot carry everyone that way.  And neither can society for long.  We must do what we can, use our wits, develop our faith, and make something happen if we have the health and strength to do so.  The power is in us, in my opinion.  I believe many of us can make room to help and hire others through our enterprise.  The Lord is full of ideas.

This is my reaction to those who say, "Hey, I've paid into this system. I should be able to get something back from it." I maintain that a dole of any kind is spiritually damaging. 

[Meerkat]

On 11/17/2017 at 8:24 AM, bluebell said:

It's not automatically or always spiritually damaging to people though.  It can be, but that is different than saying it is.

We have adequately taken care of ourselves all our lives.  When running our small businesses, we had a high deductible catastrophic medical policy that fit our budget.  One year, I had five operations.  That catastrophic policy worked just fine, with $7,500 max out of pocket.  The catastrophe was avoided.

Fast forward to Obama care.  The government took away the ability to purchase catastrophic.  Now, going through the state exchange, my wife qualifies for a subsidized plan due to our fixed income.  Our deductible is much less.  Our premium is much higher, plus it is subsidized by the government (the taxes on our neighbors and friends.)  And this year the premiums nearly doubled from last year.

I feel like our elected representatives have sold us down the river by making it ever more difficult to be self reliant.  It does have an impact on our character in the beginning.  Then it gets easier to accept.  Then easier.

Government intrusion into our lives complicates things.  I don't see how the Church can be expected to keep up with this insidious vote buying  program creep.  We make do, try to be honest, and do the best we can.  Mentally, we treat the Obama care subsidy as we do my Medicare benefit-- as an earned benefit.  But I still find it unfortunate and somewhat demeaning.