Peopling of the Americas by Boat, Not Land

mnn727 · November 11, 2017

10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Yeah, I agree. That's why I'm sticking with the Malay model, at least until evidence of transpacific or transatlantic migrations from the Middle East were possible. For now, it seems the data only supports migrations from Mesopotamia as far as Taiwan, with some shorter runs into the Pacific and down to the Malay Peninsula, nothing beyond has been demonstrated, yet.

I suspect it was possible to island hop, or catch a strong current, and I'll definitely be changing my view (and preferred model) as soon as that evidence becomes available.

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

In both cases it was God that told the Jaredites and Nephi how to build the boats and promised He would deliver them to their Promised land

Rajah Manchou · November 11, 2017

41 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

In both cases it was God that told the Jaredites and Nephi how to build the boats and promised He would deliver them to their Promised land

Agreed, and in this instance God has not yet revealed to us how or where.

Gervin · November 11, 2017

6 hours ago, mnn727 said:

In both cases it was God that told the Jaredites and Nephi how to build the boats and promised He would deliver them to their Promised land

This is basically all you need to know, because it's all you can know.

The opening post makes reference to peoples who developed the technology to build boats - borne out of a need for sustenance - and to steer and navigate these boats - again, likely borne out of that or some other need, amplified. They may not have known where they were going, necessarily, but they figured out how to get there.

The voyages described in the Book of Mormon are completely opposite because they are supernatural events; God knows where these people are going, but they have no clue about how to get there. So, God intervenes with supernatural building plans, lighting, navigation skills, and directions. The travelers only had to build the boats or barges, load them with peoples, herds, and flocks, etc., and shove off. Being good on the voyage was required. I think it odd that God had the Jaredites make those air-tight barges to keep out the raging seas. God tells them that the winds and seas obey Him. Why didn't he just make the seas calm for the passage?

Edited November 11, 2017 by Gervin
poor grammar and spellin'

bcuzbcuz · November 11, 2017

On 2017-11-06 at 10:44 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Your points here are well taken, up to a point, and then you go off the rails. Hugging the coast does make sense for these early peoples, but there is a much more important principle to be made herewith: We have a major shift in general scientific thinking about how people traveled to the New World. Boats are now primary, at least for the earliest immigrants, even if they hugged the coastline.

However, we have already known for many years, courtesy of the late Betty Meggars of the Smithsonian (very early Japanese Jomon pottery in Valdivia, Chile) and of Mike Coe of Yale (who is certain that there is a strong Southeast Asian connection to Mesoamerica), David Kelley (who showed systematically how Asian calendars match those of Mesoamerica), and others (showing tight cultural connections of the Kwakiutl of British Columbia with the Maori of New Zealand, etc.), that travel across the Pacific was quite normal -- and not just for the Polynesians. All are non-Mormon scholars with no axe to grind.

I’ll rejoin this discussion with a new article. Your critique to my first post was that I went off the rails. That’s just because I have extensive first hand experience from the northern Pacific kelp forest and you apparently have none.

Here’s a second look at why the landbridge model seems to have missed the mark. Pay particular attention to why carbon 14 dating has given a false positive. And how using Beryllium-10 dating has opened new understanding of how the ice plate of the last ice age disappeared and that new plant growth was impeded in the interior corridor.

Nothing in these articles gives an iota of support for the idea of people coming to the Americas by boats. Boats probably played a role in how populations moved down the north Pacific coast, but even that is mere conjecture. The richness in resources of the Pacific coast continue to support populations in modern time.

Western Canada's ice age melt offers preview for modern climate change

Study adds to evidence that first Americans didn't pass through B.C. interior

By Emily Chung, CBC News Posted: Nov 09, 2017 2:00 PM ET Last Updated: Nov 10, 2017 3:47 PM ET

This 2009 photo released by Extreme Ice Survey shows Birthday Canyon in Greenland during the filming of Chasing Ice.' New findings about the melting of a western Canadian ice sheet at the end of the ice age may offer a preview of what's in store for Greenland's ice sheet as it melts from human-caused climate change. (James Balog/Extreme Ice Survey/Associated Press)

Photo of Emily Chung

Emily Chung
Science and Technology Writer

Emily Chung covers science and technology for CBC News. She has previously worked as a digital journalist for CBC Ottawa and as an occasional producer at CBC's Quirks & Quarks. She has a Ph.D. in chemistry.

Boulder 'brownies'

Brian Menounos, the Canadian researcher who led the study, spent 10 years helicoptering into remote mountaintops in B.C., the Yukon and the Northwest Territories with his team, then hammering, chiselling, and sawing rectangular rock "brownies" from huge boulders to take back to the lab. The boulders were located in moraines – huge piles of rock and debris left behind by melting glaciers that scientists use to understand past climate change.

"If you want to understand future and present day, then it's often good to look at the past," said Menounos, a geography professor at the University of Northern British Columbia who holds a Canada Research Chair in glacier change.

Brian Menounos and his team hammered, chiselled and sawed 76 rectangular rock 'brownies' (with M&Ms and Lego stormtrooper for scale) from huge boulders on mountaintops to take back to the lab for analysis. (Brian Menounos/UNBC)

Understanding how the Cordilleran ice sheet melted is particularly useful because it's very similar to the present-day ice sheet that's melting in Greenland. Both contain similar amounts of ice, have similar mountainous topography underneath, and feed meltwater directly into the ocean, Menounos and his colleagues note in a new paper published today in the journal Science.

That means the Cordilleran ice sheet melt could show us what impacts we can expect in the future as the Greenland ice sheet warms and liquefies.

Traditionally, scientists have used carbon-14 dating to estimate the ages of moraines in lower-lying areas. That kind of dating suggested that the Cordilleran ice sheet still covered much of Western Canada around 12,500 years ago.

Carbon dating can't be used in high alpine areas, because the carbon comes from plant and animal material, and there isn't much of that on remote mountaintops.

Chemical clocks

So Menounos and his team used a different chemical clock — beryllium-10, which is found in quartz. Like carbon-14, it's radioactive and is formed when cosmic rays from deep space interact with atoms on Earth — nitrogen in the atmosphere in the case of carbon-14, and oxygen in rocks in the case of beryllium-10. Because a layer of ice protects surfaces from cosmic rays, the amount of beryllium 10 in rocks shows when surfaces were ice-free and exposed.

Researchers collected rock samples from moraine boulders, extracted quartz from them and determined the amount of rare isotopes in them. That shows how long the rocks have been exposed to the surface since their protective ice covering melted. (Brian Menounos/UNBC)

Beryliium-10 dating of 76 boulder brownies from 26 sites showed that high alpine areas in Western Canada were ice free as early as 14,000 years ago — 1,500 earlier than carbon-14 dating showed.

That's consistent with recent modelling calculations that suggested the Cordilleran ice sheet melted very quickly over 500 years starting around 14,500 years ago, coinciding with a period when sea surface temperatures suddenly warmed about 4 C over a few thousand years(comparable to today's warming of 1 C over around 100 years so far and climbing), causing massive sea level rise.

Those calculations suggest the Cordilleran ice sheet may have boosted sea levels by 2.5 to three metres. (While that sounds like a lot, it would have been only a small proportion of the huge rise in sea levels at the end of the ice age.)

Why did the carbon dates suggest the melt happened so much later? Menounos thinks it's because the organic matter from plants and animals that carbon-14 relies on may not have colonized the ice-free landscape until hundreds or even thousands of years after the ice melted.

Researchers take samples from a low-elevation moraine in the Northwest Territories. A new study found that remains of the Cordilleran ice sheet have remained at low elevations as late as 11,000 years ago, but had almost completely melted from higher elevations 14,000 years ago. (Chris Darvill/UNBC and University of Manchester)

In addition to figuring out when the ice melted, the new study also uncovered other details of how it melted.

By looking at moraines at different elevations, Menounos and his colleagues found that while the alpine ice melted quickly, large chunks of ice may have remained in valleys and other lower lying areas until 11,000 years ago, as the climate fluctuated between warmer and cooler over several thousand years.

That ice would have been a barrier for any humans who might be trying to pass through central B.C. until that time, the researchers suggest.

"It would be difficult to find a path," Menounos told CBC News.

That adds to growing evidence that the first people in the Americas may not have travelled inland between melting ice sheets as previously believed — instead, they likely moved south from along the Pacific Coast.

A map shows the locations where evidence of the first people in the Americas have been found. There is growing evidence that they travelled along the coast, not inland between melting ice sheets as previously believed. ( Reprinted with permission from Braje et al., Science 358:592)

The study involved researchers from across Canada along with some from the U.S., Sweden, Norway and Switzerland.

It was funded by the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, the Canadian Research Chairs Program, the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the U.S. National Science Foundation, the Swedish Research Council, Carl Mannerfelts Fond, A. och M. Bergströms Stiftelse, and the Swedish Society for Anthropology and Geography.

Robert F. Smith · November 11, 2017

52 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

DON'T KNOW HOW THIS GOT IN HERE, AND NOW I CAN'T GET RID OF IT.

5 hours ago, Gervin said:

This is basically all you need to know, because it's all you can know.

The opening post makes reference to peoples who developed the technology to build boats - borne out of a need for sustenance - and to steer and navigate these boats - again, likely borne out of that or some other need, amplified. They may not have known where they were going, necessarily, but they figured out how to get there.

The voyages described in the Book of Mormon are completely opposite because they are supernatural events; God knows where these people are going, but they have no clue about how to get there. So, God intervenes with supernatural building plans, lighting, navigation skills, and directions. The travelers only had to build the boats or barges, load them with peoples, herds, and flocks, etc., and shove off. Being good on the voyage was required. I think it odd that God had the Jaredites make those air-tight barges to keep out the raging seas. God tells them that the winds and seas obey Him. Why didn't he just make the seas calm for the passage?

Your need to attribute things you don't understand to supernaturalism is a strong drag on rational analysis. I see no disjuncture between what humans have been doing at sea for thousands of years and what Clan Lehi does at sea. Of course we must always expect that pious people will attribute every good thing to God and to miracle, just as the infidel will attribute the success of pious people to pure luck and pluck (even as he scornfully decries their belief in the miraculous). When and where the technology is available, it is silly to demand miracles.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

Robert F. Smith · November 11, 2017

48 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I’ll rejoin this discussion with a new article. Your critique to my first post was that I went off the rails. That’s just because I have extensive first hand experience from the northern Pacific kelp forest and you apparently have none.

Here’s a second look at why the landbridge model seems to have missed the mark. Pay particular attention to why carbon 14 dating has given a false positive. And how using Beryllium-10 dating has opened new understanding of how the ice plate of the last ice age disappeared and that new plant growth was impeded in the interior corridor.

Nothing in these articles gives an iota of support for the idea of people coming to the Americas by boats. Boats probably played a role in how populations moved down the north Pacific coast, but even that is mere conjecture. .................................................

Thank you for the article. Normally, you can simply cite and provide a URL, but no matter, I like what I read here, and it makes my case very well for me. You apparently didn't read the material carefully (particularly at the end). Why? Well, maybe just bcuz.

mnn727 · November 11, 2017

5 hours ago, Gervin said:

. God tells them that the winds and seas obey Him. Why didn't he just make the seas calm for the passage?

Calm sea's do not move ships. it takes wind and current.

rodheadlee · November 11, 2017

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

Calm sea's do not move ships. it takes wind and current.

Yes and all of the people in this thread should look at these currents, particularly the North Pacific Current as regards to crossing the ocean from Japan to the west coast of North America. This is the track that the debris from the last tsunami in Japan .took. The currents further north argue against coastal cruising in an easterly direction.

strappinglad · November 11, 2017

1 hour ago, mnn727 said:

6 hours ago, Gervin said:

. God tells them that the winds and seas obey Him. Why didn't he just make the seas calm for the passage?

Calm sea's do not move ships. it takes wind and current.

The scripture says that the Lord cause a furious wind to blow to drive the barges ( which they had built similar ones before when crossing large waters so they had some prior knowledge of boat building ). If we really wanted all the supernatural to do the job God could have teleported the whole bunch to wherever He wanted. For some reason God requires us to do all that we CAN do and then does what only He can do.

Gervin · November 11, 2017

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Your need to attribute things you don't understand to supernaturalism is a strong drag on rational analysis. I see no disjuncture between what humans have been doing at sea for thousands of years and what Clan Lehi does at sea.

In your rational analysis of thousands of years of maritime activities, what best explains a compass that works only when the captain is allowed to go free from the bondage of his shipmates?

21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

Robert F. Smith · November 12, 2017

48 minutes ago, Gervin said:

In your rational analysis of thousands of years of maritime activities, what best explains a compass that works only when the captain is allowed to go free from the bondage of his shipmates?

21 And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

Ah, but you don't really believe that such a miracle took place, Gervin, and you pointedly ignore all literary instances in which such miraculous descriptions are given, in order to play a game -- instead of addressing reality with all sincerity. Next you will be telling me of miracles of the Holy Grail from Arthurian legend courtesy of Malory, and of Jona swallowed whole by a fish (and lived to tell of it), and of Joseph's wonderful seerstone.

Did you even bother to read the BofM text on this matter? We are presented with the story of the Liahona-compass, which is a fine brass “ball” with two spindles (1 Nephi 16:10, 18:12), one spindle presumably pointing to magnetic north, the other for the azimuth. That is how one navigates, and of course brass is non-magnetic, which is why it is preferred for ocean navigation. Indeed, the properties of lodestone (magnetite) were known already to Thales of Miletus, a contemporary of Lehi. Moreover, the ancient Mesoamerican “mother culture” known now as the Olmec (the Jaredites) already knew of and used lodestone as a directional device in the 2nd millennium B.C.[1]

[1] Robert H. Fuson, "The Orientation of Mayan Ceremonial Centers," Annals of the Association of American Geographers, 59/3 (Sept 1969):508-510; Michael Coe in Sharer & Grove, eds., Regional Perspectives on the Olmec (Cambridge Univ. Press, 1989), 79; Gareth Lowe, "The Heartland Olmec: Evolution of Material Culture," in Sharer & Grove, eds., Regional Perspectives on the Olmec, 44 (fig 4.6 item n),53-54; Coe & R. Diehl, In the Land of the Olmec, I: The Archaeology of San Lorenzo Tenochtitlan (Austin: Univ. of Texas Press, 1980), 244-245 figs 251, 255.

I believe in a naturalistic universe. No magic, and no miracle -- except to those ignorant of nature.

Rajah Manchou · November 12, 2017

4 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

Nothing in these articles gives an iota of support for the idea of people coming to the Americas by boats. Boats probably played a role in how populations moved down the north Pacific coast, but even that is mere conjecture.

How did the Paleoeskimo groups get to the Americas around 3000 BC, and the Neo-Eskimo groups around 200 BC?

"The first wave of subsequent pre-Columbian migration, ca. 3500 BCE (the current pre-print makes the case for an approximate 3000 BCE date [3]) gave rise to the Paleo-Eskimos who ceased to exist as a distinct population around the time that the "Neo-Eskimos" arrived, which is also the source, a few centuries later, of the distinctive genetic ancestry of the Na-Dene people (such as the Tlingit people of Southeast Alaska, and the Apache and Navajo people of the American Southeast), which is otherwise shared with the founding population of the Americas.

The second wave sometime between 1100 BCE and 200 BCE (probably closer to 200 BCE, given the archaeological evidence) gave rise to the Neo-Eskimos such as the Inuits, after substantial admixture with people descended from the founding population of the Americas." (source)

Edited November 12, 2017 by Rajah Manchou

Gervin · November 12, 2017

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Ah, but you don't really believe that such a miracle took place, Gervin, and you pointedly ignore all literary instances in which such miraculous descriptions are given, in order to play a game -- instead of addressing reality with all sincerity. Next you will be telling me of miracles of the Holy Grail from Arthurian legend courtesy of Malory, and of Jona swallowed whole by a fish (and lived to tell of it), and of Joseph's wonderful seerstone.

This thread and my posts have nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe. Try to focus on my questions, not me.

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Did you even bother to read the BofM text on this matter? We are presented with the story of the Liahona-compass, which is a fine brass “ball” with two spindles (1 Nephi 16:10, 18:12), one spindle presumably pointing to magnetic north, the other for the azimuth. That is how one navigates, and of course brass is non-magnetic, which is why it is preferred for ocean navigation. Indeed, the properties of lodestone (magnetite) were known already to Thales of Miletus, a contemporary of Lehi. Moreover, the ancient Mesoamerican “mother culture” known now as the Olmec (the Jaredites) already knew of and used lodestone as a directional device in the 2nd millennium B.C.[1]

My post was not about the navigation skills of the Israelites, though much can be said about the fact that they weren't exactly known for their sea-faring.

38 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I believe in a naturalistic universe. No magic, and no miracle -- except to those ignorant of nature.

Back to my original question, then. You say "I see no disjuncture between what humans have been doing at sea for thousands of years and what Clan Lehi does at sea." How does rational analysis explain this:

12 And it came to pass that after they had bound me insomuch that I could not move, the compass, which had been prepared of the Lord, did cease to work.

Rajah Manchou · November 12, 2017

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes and all of the people in this thread should look at these currents, particularly the North Pacific Current as regards to crossing the ocean from Japan to the west coast of North America. This is the track that the debris from the last tsunami in Japan .took.

Those currents can do some amazing things given enough time. A ship once wrecked just below the Aleutian Islands releasing 10,000 rubber duckies into the North Pacific current. Within 10 years ducks were making landfall as far away as Hawaii, South America, Australia, Indonesia, Maine, and Great Britain.

Robert F. Smith · November 12, 2017

31 minutes ago, Gervin said:

This thread and my posts have nothing to do with what I believe or don't believe. Try to focus on my questions, not me.

My post was not about the navigation skills of the Israelites, though much can be said about the fact that they weren't exactly known for their sea-faring.

Back to my original question, then. You say "I see no disjuncture between what humans have been doing at sea for thousands of years and what Clan Lehi does at sea." How does rational analysis explain this:

12 And it came to pass that after they had bound me insomuch that I could not move, the compass, which had been prepared of the Lord, did cease to work.

As I said, and you pointedly ignored, you don't believe in miracles, Gervin, and neither do I. But for the sake of a silly game, you also ignore all literary instances of just such miraculous description. Are you really so naive? I think not: No sincerity, just a game. Only a yokel who has never heard of the Phoenicians has no rational explanation.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

bcuzbcuz · November 12, 2017

22 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

How did the Paleoeskimo groups get to the Americas around 3000 BC, and the Neo-Eskimo groups around 200 BC?

"The first wave of subsequent pre-Columbian migration, ca. 3500 BCE (the current pre-print makes the case for an approximate 3000 BCE date [3]) gave rise to the Paleo-Eskimos who ceased to exist as a distinct population around the time that the "Neo-Eskimos" arrived, which is also the source, a few centuries later, of the distinctive genetic ancestry of the Na-Dene people (such as the Tlingit people of Southeast Alaska, and the Apache and Navajo people of the American Southeast), which is otherwise shared with the founding population of the Americas.

The second wave sometime between 1100 BCE and 200 BCE (probably closer to 200 BCE, given the archaeological evidence) gave rise to the Neo-Eskimos such as the Inuits, after substantial admixture with people descended from the founding population of the Americas." (source)

A very interesting article. Thank you. I don’t have the answers to many of the questions implied in your post. I know too little about the Inuit and pre-Inuit cultures that stretch from Northern Alaska, across the Northwest territories of Canada and even to Greenland. There were obviously different surges of peoples that displaced earlier groups, as seen by the changes in boat making and clothing that vary by districts. Those with an ear for it can hear not only the dialects but basic language differences. Archeological digs are in their infancy.

I do know about the populations that pushed down the Pacific northwest coast from the peoples of Alaska, the panhandle, down the fjords of BC, Vancouver Island and the northern tip of coastal Washington. The tribes established along the coast do not share common stories of origins. They do not consider lines of ancestry linking their various cultures and languages as coming from common ground. DNA evidence links them all, but they themselves do not have traditions that call upon such links

The Tlingit, Tshimsian and Haida Gwai peoples have similar environments. But their territories were fiercely fought over, with tribes taking slaves from the conquered. The language links that can be demonstrated by experts are not acknowledged through tribal traditions nor maternal lineages. The Haida had large ocean going canoes. We know ths from stories even though the canoes no longer exist. Archeological finds of bone tools, like halibut hooks are ample witnesses to canoes that could cope with ocean travel. But the Gitksan are river people and do not have the same tools.

Further down the coast, the Kwakiatul and Bella Coola populations, that grew along the fjords and islands of the Pacific coast have no current tales of their ancestry coming by boat. It seems reasonable that boats were involved but it is mere conjecture without any proof.

The Nuu-Chah-Nulth of Vancouver Island have whaling tools that also bespeak sea going canoes. The shafts of their harpoons have withered away but the bone detachable tips persist, in their hundreds.

The Coast Salish have traditions of being most capable of making fish weirs and have left petroglyph records in stone of their ancient traditions but nothing that denotes large sea going canoes

The Makah from the northern tip of Washington state do have sea going traditions. They still take to sea for their annual whale hunts.

There is nothing to indicate that the tribes and bands that occupy the northwest coast moved rapidly down the coast from their start in Alaska.

A common link is, however, their food resources. The kelp forests that stretch all the way down to Monterey in California and beyond were and are common.

DNA from a find in Washington indicates population from around 8000 BCE

Gervin · November 12, 2017

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As I said, and you pointedly ignored, you don't believe in miracles, Gervin, and neither do I. But for the sake of a silly game, you also ignore all literary instances of just such miraculous description. Are you really so naive? I think not: No sincerity, just a game. Only a yokel who has never heard of the Phoenicians has no rational explanation.

Actually, I do believe in miracles. Derisively mis-characterizing what I believe is uncharitable.

I made a not-so-earth-shattering observation that the Book of Mormon voyages, as described, have no correlation to ancient voyages or maritime pursuits; they are supernatural events: God directs the leaving of a homeland by a people who have little to no seafaring experience, God provides specifications on how to build the boat, God provides illuminated rocks to provide light on a nearly year-long voyage, God constructs and provides a compass that functions only as long as the user and his kin are faithful, and God directs the barges and ship specifically to a landing in the Promised Land.

This of course, is not what humans have been doing at sea for thousands of years.

Robert F. Smith · November 12, 2017

30 minutes ago, Gervin said:

Actually, I do believe in miracles. Derisively mis-characterizing what I believe is uncharitable.

I made a not-so-earth-shattering observation that the Book of Mormon voyages, as described, have no correlation to ancient voyages or maritime pursuits; they are supernatural events: God directs the leaving of a homeland by a people who have little to no seafaring experience, God provides specifications on how to build the boat, God provides illuminated rocks to provide light on a nearly year-long voyage, God constructs and provides a compass that functions only as long as the user and his kin are faithful, and God directs the barges and ship specifically to a landing in the Promised Land.

This of course, is not what humans have been doing at sea for thousands of years.

Since you don't wish to read the BofM the way any literature should be read, naturally you will respond in that very naive manner, mouthing observations which make hash of any critical (academic) reading. You would clearly not be able to tell the difference between a novel by Herman Melville and the real-life experience upon which it was based.

Your claim to believe in miracles and the supernatural is extraordinarily shallow, and cannot be justified by reason. And yet you jabber on about rational requirements for ocean voyaging -- about which you know nothing. Your imaginary, irrational demands don't leave much room for meaningful discussion.

The universe is solely natural, Gervin. There is no supernatural -- which is a contradiction in terms anyhow.

Gervin · November 12, 2017

8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Since you don't wish to read the BofM the way any literature should be read, naturally you will respond in that very naive manner, mouthing observations which make hash of any critical (academic) reading. You would clearly not be able to tell the difference between a novel by Herman Melville and the real-life experience upon which it was based.

Your claim to believe in miracles and the supernatural is extraordinarily shallow, and cannot be justified by reason. And yet you jabber on about rational requirements for ocean voyaging -- about which you know nothing. Your imaginary, irrational demands don't leave much room for meaningful discussion.

The universe is solely natural, Gervin. There is no supernatural -- which is a contradiction in terms anyhow.

Well, that's a pretty compelling argument for the veracity of the Book of Mormon. Bravo.

Rajah Manchou · November 13, 2017

21 hours ago, Gervin said:

I made a not-so-earth-shattering observation that the Book of Mormon voyages, as described, have no correlation to ancient voyages or maritime pursuits; they are supernatural events:

We don't know where the Book of Mormon voyages, as described, took place. So we don't yet know whether they have correlation to ancient voyages or not. There are a few interesting accounts in ancient texts that do seem to have correlatations with the Book of Mormon account.

(1) Several Arabic historians describe grandsons of Noah departing Mesopotamia in boats resembling the Ark of Noah around the time of the tower. The accounts say they traveled to a place called Qumr (or Comoro) and established a large civilization. This account closely matches the Book of Mormon account of the Jaredites.

(2) there are several Jewish/Christian accounts of a group of Israelites, called Rechabites, departing Jerusalem in the 6th century BC and carried (by God) beyond the shores of the great sea, to a distant land. Greek and Roman texts describing the Camarini (Khmer) and Rahmans (Israelite Brahmans) echo these accounts of seafaring Israelites. Several LDS and non-LDS scholars have noted the similarities between the Lehites and the Rechabites. Nibley went as far as to say the Lehites were Rechabites.

Both of the above accounts can be supported with archaeological (and genetic) evidence, and were most likely not the result of supernatural events.

21 hours ago, Gervin said:

God directs the leaving of a homeland by a people who have little to no seafaring experience, God provides specifications on how to build the boat, God provides illuminated rocks to provide light on a nearly year-long voyage, God constructs and provides a compass that functions only as long as the user and his kin are faithful, and God directs the barges and ship specifically to a landing in the Promised Land.

This of course, is not what humans have been doing at sea for thousands of years.

The earliest civilizations of Southeast Asia claim to have been founded by a man from the west who was told by God in a dream to board a ship and sail to a distant land. The next morning he found a magic bow (in some versions arrows). He boarded a ship and the winds carried him to the new land (the Qumr or Comoro mentioned above). There are of course similarities with the Book of Mormon account of Lehi being told by God in a vision to travel into the wilderness, and Lehi waking up to discover the liahona.

Along the proposed path of the Lehites, there have been archaeological finds of pottery and beads and iron technologies unique to the Mediterranean, Iran and Afghanistan dating as far back as the 6th century BC. So it is possible humans have been doing things like this, at sea, for thousands of years.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Rajah Manchou

Calm · November 14, 2017

On 2017-11-11 at 6:45 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

Those currents can do some amazing things given enough time. A ship once wrecked just below the Aleutian Islands releasing 10,000 rubber duckies into the North Pacific current. Within 10 years ducks were making landfall as far away as Hawaii, South America, Australia, Indonesia, Maine, and Great Britain.

Is this for real? If so, best shipwrecked story ever!

(And I adored Swiss Family Robinson, the book, and Robinson Crusoe)

Hamba Tuhan · November 14, 2017

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this for real?

Yep.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Hamba Tuhan

bcuzbcuz · November 14, 2017

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep.

I found a rubber ducky in my bathtub. Does that count?

Hamba Tuhan · November 14, 2017

30 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I found a rubber ducky in my bathtub. Does that count?

Nope.

Meerkat · March 3, 2018

On 11/5/2017 at 8:32 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Annalee Newitz, “Most scientists now reject the idea that the first Americans came by land,” Ars Technica, Nov 4, 2017, online at https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/11/majority-of-scientists-now-agree-that-humans-came-to-the-americas-by-boat/ , with map,

Todd J. Braje, et al., “Finding the first Americans,” Science, 358/6363 (3 Nov 2017):592-594, online at http://science.sciencemag.org/content/358/6363/592 ,

It now appears that coming to America by boat was normal even from earliest times. There is no longer any reason to credit the Beringia Land Bridge hypothesis, except in a much later period.

How are we supposed to keep up when the truth keeps changing all the time? Isn't accurate geography and history an important part of our faith? I like the new history better than the old history. But still, just when I was getting comfortable with the land bridge idea.

Peopling of the Americas by Boat, Not Land

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