Mormon 95 thesis for our day

[nuclearfuels]

1. Clear and clean separation from BSA

2. Make Church HQ legally sovereign like the Catholic Church HQ

3. Reinstitute plural marriage

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I actually don't like the new youth Sunday School curriculum and would not like to see the adult lessons head the same way.  One of the powerful ways that the scriptures teach is through telling stories.  The change to topical study would seem to be a move away from learning the stories that are told in the scriptures and risk adding more and more proof texting.  I find the scripture much more enjoyable and instructive when I understand a particular verses place within a story rather than just an isolated statement.

Those very good people that enter into Temple gates are the result of very wonderful, fine parents.  Let them be there...it hurts unecessarily not only for that moment but for many years to come.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, hope_for_things said:

Formal vs. informal, scholarly vs. amateur, audiences and expectations are different.  Same thing with internet comments on a message board like this, all of which are public, but have vast differences.  

Can you explain how my reaction to her blog is not appropriate, given that the blog is informal and from an amateur?  I don't think i understand what you are saying.

Quote

You have a right to say that you think she was being arrogant, I'm not trying to take that away from you, I was just asking for you to support that claim with evidence. 

I did though.  I said "Given that people have already pointed out the many times in the list that her 'changes' either already existed in some form, wouldn't work, or took only her own thoughts in consideration" it's clear she didn't do any research and that the list is based on her personal desires and nothing more.  I don't think there's anything wrong with having personal desires that hoping that things are done in ways that we personally find better.  

But comparing yourself to Martin Luther and putting together a 95 point thesis for change is an attempt to legitimize her personal opinions in a way that seems arrogant to me.

Quote

I thought it interesting especially because of the female perspective on many topics.

I agree.  It is interesting.  My concerns are not meant to imply that discussing her list isn't interesting.  

[Avatar4321]

I'll stick with the prophets and apostles.

[hope_for_things]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you explain how my reaction to her blog is not appropriate, given that the blog is informal and from an amateur?  I don't think i understand what you are saying.

I did though.  I said "Given that people have already pointed out the many times in the list that her 'changes' either already existed in some form, wouldn't work, or took only her own thoughts in consideration" it's clear she didn't do any research and that the list is based on her personal desires and nothing more.  I don't think there's anything wrong with having personal desires that hoping that things are done in ways that we personally find better.  

But comparing yourself to Martin Luther and putting together a 95 point thesis for change is an attempt to legitimize her personal opinions in a way that seems arrogant to me.

I agree.  It is interesting.  My concerns are not meant to imply that discussing her list isn't interesting.  

I'm not saying your reaction is "not appropriate", I was just disagreeing with your charge that she's arrogant.  And I don't see that she's comparing herself to Martin Luther in any way.  Here is a quote from her blog right before the list that she made.  

Quote

I have neither the goal nor the desire to kick off any type of Mormon Reformation, but hoo-boy, do I have some grievances/ideas/theses about the Mormon church. Sometimes I feel like the policies and practices we have in place are actually stumbling blocks to creating Zion, rather than building blocks.  So, in the very-loosely-defined spirit of Luther (and possibly more in the spirit of Festivus’ Airing of Grievances), I present my Ninety-five Theses for the present-day Mormon Church.

She's really not taking herself too seriously at all.  At any rate, I think you misinterpreted the tone of her words with your claim that she sounds arrogant.  That was my only disagreement with you, and I think that by now I've belabored this point.  

[hope_for_things]

18 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I'll stick with the prophets and apostles.

Me too

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Tacenda,

Just pay tithing the way you feel empowered to pay it.  The only litmus test is when the Bishop asks if you are a full tithe payer.  He doesn't ask if you paid 10% on gross, or net or surplus or who you paid the funds to.  Tithing is a personal accountability thing, go ahead a follow your conscience.  

I agree that talks could be given to make this easier for the members to feel so empowered, but can you imagine an organization promoting the concept of giving less money to the institution?  Its just not in the financial interests of the institution to promote autonomy with tithing funds. 

It's a conundrum for sure and feels like if it's not all spelled out, some will have to pay more than others. Or very confusing because we all think differently on how tithing is to be paid. Is it on net? Is it on interest? Is it only if we have means, and what if we spent unwisely that led to no means. But I know God wants happy givers.

But I'm sure I could say plenty of things I'd like to change about the church, but all in all, I like how it's set up. I agree with Jeanne though, the weddings should be public, just as Joseph Smith once said marriages should be. 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Tacenda

[hope_for_things]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's a conundrum for sure and feels like if it's not all spelled out, some will have to pay more than others. Or very confusing because we all think differently on how tithing is to be paid. Is it on net? Is it on interest? Is it only if we have means, and what if we spent unwisely that led to no means. But I know God wants happy givers.

But I'm sure I could say plenty of things I'd like to change about the church, but all in all, I like how it's set up. I agree with Jeanne though, the weddings should be public, just as Joseph Smith once said marriages should be. 

The only conundrum really is that you haven't recognized how this is all within your power.  You have the authority and power to do what you want.  Don't worry as much about the fairness issue as you can't control what upper management is communicating.  You can control how you respond and what you determine is fair for you personally to pay.  That's between you and God. 

Sorry if I'm getting a little preachy here, I'm just trying to help empower you...

[ksfisher]

37 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Those very good people that enter into Temple gates are the result of very wonderful, fine parents.  Let them be there...it hurts unecessarily not only for that moment but for many years to come.

What?  I'm not sure what your reply had to do with my post.

[CA Steve]

This thread reminds me of the threads where it is okay to claim prophets are fallible but not okay to point out where they have erred.

Clearly no one thinks the Church is perfect.

So someone has created a list of what they would like to see changed. All of us could make such a list. Why not enjoy discussing which parts we agree on and which we don't without trying to categorize our differences as examples of the other person's apostasy?

 

Me? I would like to see them go back to using wine in the sacrament. That would make listening to the HC speaker a whole lot easier.

 

 

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

What?  I'm not sure what your reply had to do with my post.

I am so sorry...I meant to quote from hope for all things...of course this doesn't make sense...his post was just above yours. 

[Jeanne]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I would change the talk on tithing in our manuals to reflect the original from Lorenzo Snow...

“I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman, and child who has the means shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing.” (Conference Report Oct. 1899, 28)

And not cut out words as in the quote below, that is in the Lesson Manual Chapter 12:

“I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child … shall pay one-tenth of their income as a tithing”

One for the thesis...no more ellipses, give it to us how it was originally meant. 

Tithing was the reason that my mom was not able to attend my brother's temple marriage...her little salary paid lunch money to 4 kids that were still living at home...I will never forget the different sets of quarters, dimes and nickles to do this..

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

 Our hymnbook already includes songs from other cultures, although with latter day saint themes.

the old English folk song Dives and Lazarus seems to be a hit among LDS as well as Scotland the Brave.

I personally enjoy the Mormon tabernacles rendering of the tune to John Brown's Body

What irks me is the fact that MOTAB can sing anything they want (spiritual and unplifting), including the Pilgrim Chorus from Wagner's "Tannhäuser."  Yet wards and stakes are not permitted to go outside the official Hymnbook.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TjSxoUobag .

 

[Rain]

8 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Personally I'll always give parents of young children a pass on this one.  Sometimes, as hard as you might try to be on time, things just don't work out.  A diaper needs to be changed, etc.  Also parents who've taken their children out into the foyer because they're not being reverent.  I think those groups of people should always receive the sacrament no matter where they're seated.

Otherwise I agree with you.  The sacrament is important and we should plan our time so as to be on time.

 

6 hours ago, Alan said:

We raised 5 children and didn't miss sacrament that I can remember.

Parents who take their children out because they're not being reverent should teach them to be reverent. I attended a Catholic mass recently... no problems there.

I DO think we need to take the sacrament more seriously. I half agree with not passing the Sacrament in the foyer, but I think doing that misses some things.

My children have always been praised for their reverence. Part of that comes from if I had to take them out then it wasn't going to be play time. It wasn't going to be fun. Still, there were a few times, especially as babies where they cried or made noise anyway. 

And it isn't just last minute problems with children that make someone late. My blood sugar has dropped at the last minute making me unsafe to drive. The elderly have fallen on the ice as they made their way to the car. Some people run as soon as they get a break from work and still make it late. Things happen. So yes, we shouldn't be late every week, but I do think we need to understand there are legitimate reasons for being there. 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Rain

[Amulek]

Read though the entire list; one quick observation: It's interesting to see somebody talk about all these changes that need to be made in "the church" (at large) when it seems obvious from the list that several of her pet peeves are simply changes she would like to see made in her (presumably, Utah) ward. Many of the items on her list are certainly changeable, and - in fact - have been the norm in many of the wards I have attended over the years. So, if there's something changeable that you would like to see changed...well, you know - change it. 

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I actually don't like the new youth Sunday School curriculum and would not like to see the adult lessons head the same way.  One of the powerful ways that the scriptures teach is through telling stories.  The change to topical study would seem to be a move away from learning the stories that are told in the scriptures and risk adding more and more proof texting.  I find the scripture much more enjoyable and instructive when I understand a particular verses place within a story rather than just an isolated statement.

This really speaks to updating the manuals taking into account scholarship relating to scripture.  I'm all for it.  To me the current method of Sunday School for adults is much more about proof texts being read and much less about understanding the scriptures, what they mean.  Such would require a focused effort on keeping abrest of what scholars have been saying about the scriptures.

[hope_for_things]

43 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

This really speaks to updating the manuals taking into account scholarship relating to scripture.  I'm all for it.  To me the current method of Sunday School for adults is much more about proof texts being read and much less about understanding the scriptures, what they mean.  Such would require a focused effort on keeping abrest of what scholars have been saying about the scriptures.

At minimum teachers could use the scholarship coming out of BYU, Maxwell institute and other church owned institutions.  At best they could even use biblical scholarship from the broader Christian community.  Unfortunately, when the church has explicit warnings in the manual to stick to the material in the book, it creates a culture of fear with respect to learning, which is actually in opposition to many principles of the gospel.  

It's almost like the garden of Eden conundrum, one commandment pitted against another, and from my experience many teachers will follow the instruction to stick closely to the manuals.  Some of my teachers are even avoiding the church's online materials this year because they depart too far from their comfort zone with respect to church history and the correlated pablum they've been fed.  

Edited November 2, 2017 by hope_for_things

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

At the very least, God should command the saints to destroy them.  Blood atonement and the good old days....

Sounds like a great idea but I really hate having to wash blood out of my clothes. Such a hassle.

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm interested in what perceived problems they saw from the tests around this.  It sounds like you're saying the problems were with long term commitment problems with retention for the church?  My instincts tell me that weekly attendance would improve as 2 hrs isn't as big of a commitment/sacrifice, so I could see people attending more on a weekly basis. 

I honestly don't know what they found beyond not going farther with it. I'd love to know. My guess is problems with kids but I just don't know.

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I would love more experimentation.  Perhaps 3 hours isn't the sweet spot, they could certainly do studies and trials to determine the optimum number of hours for participation rates.   Maybe 5 hours would increase participation rates?  Let the data determine the optimum amount of time for the maximum benefit.  

It appears they have been doing that. Apparently before this new program for priesthood it was tested in Orem and elsewhere. (As I recall someone here was in one of those tests and reported it during the summer)

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not sure what you mean by people doing the minimum religiously, are you saying that because many people don't study their scriptures with a 3 hr block that this somehow gets even worse in a 2 hr block scenario and they study even less?  What is the impact on children, can you elaborate?  

I should be clear that it's my assumption that kids were suffering. I don't have any evidence that was the conclusion of the trial. My observation that many families do more of the minimum amount necessary and primary religious education happens at Church seems more easy to defend. Again we have to distinguish what might be more common in say a suburban Utah county ward from the typical American ward. In my experience there's a lot of variance that some members who haven't been in numerous words can miss.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

And it isn't just last minute problems with children that make someone late. My blood sugar has dropped at the last minute making me unsafe to drive. The elderly have fallen on the ice as they made their way to the car. Some people run as soon as they get a break from work and still make it late. Things happen. So yes, we shouldn't be late every week, but I do think we need to be understand there are legitimate reasons for being there. 

I fully agree. I honestly wish there were more chairs in the foyer. Nothing sucks more than coming in late and having all the couches and seats occupied. Particularly if you're 8 months pregnant.  

I understand why they don't put more chairs. Honestly I just don't get the stigma of the foyer versus being inside though. Isn't the key thing the attempt to get to church?

 

[hope_for_things]

24 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I should be clear that it's my assumption that kids were suffering. I don't have any evidence that was the conclusion of the trial. My observation that many families do more of the minimum amount necessary and primary religious education happens at Church seems more easy to defend. Again we have to distinguish what might be more common in say a suburban Utah county ward from the typical American ward. In my experience there's a lot of variance that some members who haven't been in numerous words can miss.

If less time at church equals kids learning to think for themselves more, then I'm even more sold than before, sign me up! 

Edited November 2, 2017 by hope_for_things

[Calm]

6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't see any arrogance with someone making recommendations for change, perhaps you are biased against listening to the voice of a woman advocating for changes?  

Insisting that one piece garments be dropped?  How is that not arrogant or self centered at least?  She appears to be unable o imagine that others may have reasons to prefer them ( I know one person who can't handle elastic and another who can't have constriction at their waists...they love one piece).

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What irks me is the fact that MOTAB can sing anything they want (spiritual and unplifting), including the Pilgrim Chorus from Wagner's "Tannhäuser."  Yet wards and stakes are not permitted to go outside the official Hymnbook.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TjSxoUobag .

 

Ward and stake choirs are allowed to and in my experience often sings songs that are not found in the hymnbook.  This is consistent with the direction found in Chapter 14 of Handbook 2.  It is only congregational signing that the church asks to be only from the hymnbook. 

 

[kiwi57]

7 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't see any arrogance with someone making recommendations for change, perhaps you are biased against listening to the voice of a woman advocating for changes?  

That's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, isn't it?

With or without the knee?

Perhaps you aren't aware that men don't have an automatic own-group preference based on gender like women do.

Apart from that, I was commenting on the content of the gripe list.

The content, hope.

Point 23 is a good one. Points 62, 65 and 66, just for example, are outright apostate.

And I don't care whether the person who suggested these things was a man, a woman, a child or a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri. The "theses" are what they are.

[kiwi57]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

1. Clear and clean separation from BSA

2. Make Church HQ legally sovereign like the Catholic Church HQ

3. Reinstitute plural marriage

Do you have a death wish?