Mormon 95 thesis for our day

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

If less time at church equals kids learning to think for themselves more, then I'm even more sold than before, sign me up! 

In fact if we dissolved the Church we'd hit an intellectual and technological utopia within the decade with all that "thinking for themselves" going on. By that same standard we should probably also abolish public and private schools too.

[hope_for_things]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Insisting that one piece garments be dropped?  How is that not arrogant or self centered at least?  She appears to be unable o imagine that others may have reasons to prefer them ( I know one person who can't handle elastic and another who can't have constriction at their waists...they love one piece).

Not arrogant in my mind, perhaps insensitive or naive to the experiences of others though.  However, one thing I would consider as a person that works in finance is whether the manufacturing of the one piece is more expensive than what they sell the product for.  I don't think the church should provide niche products that are very low demand if the cost to produce is more expensive than the price they sell them for. 

This would be one consideration that I would have, but I have no actual insight into the costs of production vs. the demand for these one piece garments, just something to consider especially if they sell very few of these items, at some point they should faze them out.  

 

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What irks me is the fact that MOTAB can sing anything they want (spiritual and unplifting), including the Pilgrim Chorus from Wagner's "Tannhäuser."  Yet wards and stakes are not permitted to go outside the official Hymnbook.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TjSxoUobag .

I didn't know that was a policy. It's definitely one broken pretty regularly.

[hope_for_things]

31 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

That's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, isn't it?

With or without the knee?

Perhaps you aren't aware that men don't have an automatic own-group preference based on gender like women do.

Apart from that, I was commenting on the content of the gripe list.

The content, hope.

Point 23 is a good one. Points 62, 65 and 66, just for example, are outright apostate.

And I don't care whether the person who suggested these things was a man, a woman, a child or a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri. The "theses" are what they are.

Its my observation as a man, that sexism is a huge problem in society today and even worse in the Mormon tradition unfortunately.  I wasn't able to see the sexism until I really started learning about privilege and listening to the voices of feminists, and honestly I think I'm only scratching the surface.  I asked if you were showing a bias against the voices of women because your comment had a dismissiveness towards this author in general without specifically addressing or critiquing specific items.    

What you think is "apostate" is just your unauthoritative opinion, and I disagree with you, I don't see anything apostate about those ideas, they are compatible with my understanding of gospel principles, and I'm hopeful that they will happen in my lifetime.  Personally I think issues in 65 & 66 shows just how out of alignment the brethren are with God, and I'm hopeful that they see the light and repent of the sins the church is committing against the vulnerable in our society.  

 

[hope_for_things]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In fact if we dissolved the Church we'd hit an intellectual and technological utopia within the decade with all that "thinking for themselves" going on. By that same standard we should probably also abolish public and private schools too.

Since you're on a roll with the slippery slope arguments, lets abolish the government, way too much controversy there.  

[ksfisher]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In fact if we dissolved the Church we'd hit an intellectual and technological utopia within the decade with all that "thinking for themselves" going on. By that same standard we should probably also abolish public and private schools too.

It tried using the same argument on my parents about high school.  No luck.

[Amulek]

Quote

7.     To quote a new convert I spoke with recently, “y’all’s hymns sound like we’re at a funeral every damn time.”  Let’s get the tempo up to where it needs to be, and let’s try to add some gusto in our singing.

Learn how to play the organ proficiently and you'll have plenty of opportunities to get the tempo 'up to where it needs to be;' until then, quit your whining. 

 

[mnn727]

I'm wondering what Church whomever wrote that list goes to.

I can agree with some of them, (patriotic songs have no  place in Church). but some are locally controlled like cleaning nursery toys! (which BTW is on our Wards weekly cleaning list) and others don't even apply to our Church.

 

[kiwi57]

54 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its my observation as a man, that sexism is a huge problem in society today and even worse in the Mormon tradition unfortunately.  I wasn't able to see the sexism until I really started learning about privilege and listening to the voices of feminists, and honestly I think I'm only scratching the surface.  I asked if you were showing a bias against the voices of women because your comment had a dismissiveness towards this author in general without specifically addressing or critiquing specific items.    

What you think is "apostate" is just your unauthoritative opinion, and I disagree with you, I don't see anything apostate about those ideas, they are compatible with my understanding of gospel principles, and I'm hopeful that they will happen in my lifetime.

They are not compatible with our understanding of Gospel Principles. In fact, the notion of a "same sex marriage" - to say nothing of a "same sex Temple sealing" is diametrically opposed to LDS theology and soteriology.

The position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on those matters is laid out in "The Family - A Proclamation to the World." Since that is the position of the Church, it rather relentlessly follows that an argument in direct opposition thereto is not an LDS position.

54 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

 Personally I think issues in 65 & 66 shows just how out of alignment the brethren are with God, and I'm hopeful that they see the light and repent of the sins the church is committing against the vulnerable in our society.  

Oh, I see. Another member of the "When-the-brethren-are-smart-enough-to-agree-with-me-then-they'll-be-in-touch-with-God" club.

Well, I'm not joining that club. I'd rather be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

[kiwi57]

7 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I don't detect the whining, sounds like you're not being charitable to the author.

I don't see that Jane is being any less charitable than the author herself. You're not being dismissive towards a woman defending the Church, are you?

Quote

I'll admit that I don't like the strict rules on the warming of items at the church.  I remember from my childhood when we used the appliances to cook with, and I'm not familiar with restaurant rules or food department inspections, so I can't comment on the validity of your critique.  I always heard they just don't want the fire hazards as the reason for restricting the use of the appliances.  

The reason given in my area was health requirements for food preparation areas.

Edited November 2, 2017 by kiwi57

[filovirus]

On 11/1/2017 at 3:41 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Like #63: Kitchens are for "warming only" because otherwise they would legally qualify as the same rules as restaurants and be subject to Food Department inspections, etc.  This would be a completely unnecessary hassle for everyone involved.  Hence, if you want to teach a cooking activity, you can teach it at someone's house, or many other ways.  

Not true. I am a restaurant health inspector. We only inspect church kitchens that are open to the public. Many religions have community meals for homeless, needy, etc and they are open for anyone to come in.

LDS events are considered private events. They can do any and all cooking without a restaurant license.

BTW, we inspect many kitchens that just do "warming". Most schools these days just do warming. Stick frozen pizzas in the oven, warm them it, cut and serve them. No cooking at all.

[Calm]

"Perhaps you aren't aware that men don't have an automatic own-group preference based on gender like women do."

Huh?

[kiwi57]

5 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm not saying your reaction is "not appropriate", I was just disagreeing with your charge that she's arrogant.  And I don't see that she's comparing herself to Martin Luther in any way.  Here is a quote from her blog right before the list that she made.  

She's really not taking herself too seriously at all.  At any rate, I think you misinterpreted the tone of her words with your claim that she sounds arrogant.  That was my only disagreement with you, and I think that by now I've belabored this point.  

She wasn't comparing herself to Martin Luther, so she called her post "95 Theses?"

Really?

Incidentally, the real 95 Theses weren't a haphazard laundry list things of Luther wanted to change. Rather, they were all focused on a single topic, namely the practice of selling indulgences.

[kiwi57]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

"Perhaps you aren't aware that men don't have an automatic own-group preference based on gender like women do."

Huh?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274

It's actually fairly well established.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Not arrogant in my mind, perhaps insensitive or naive to the experiences of others though.  However, one thing I would consider as a person that works in finance is whether the manufacturing of the one piece is more expensive than what they sell the product for.  I don't think the church should provide niche products that are very low demand if the cost to produce is more expensive than the price they sell them for. 

This would be one consideration that I would have, but I have no actual insight into the costs of production vs. the demand for these one piece garments, just something to consider especially if they sell very few of these items, at some point they should faze them out.  

 

If they require people to wear garments, then they need to provide garments that they are able to wear.

[Jeanne]

6 minutes ago, filovirus said:

Not true. I am a restaurant health inspector. We only inspect church kitchens that are open to the public. Many religions have community meals for homeless, needy, etc and they are open for anyone to come in.

LDS events are considered private events. They can do any and all cooking without a restaurant license.

BTW, we inspect many kitchens that just do "warming". Most schools these days just do warming. Stick frozen pizzas in the oven, warm them it, cut and serve them. No cooking at all.

Oooooo... a hot meal without green jello/cottage cheese.what would that be like?? Thanks for info!

[Calm]

1 minute ago, kiwi57 said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15491274

It's actually fairly well established.

I would like to know if they were tied to specific topics.  I know tons of women that have been dismissive of other women when desiring something authoritative (not only in Church, but at schools, for medical opinions, anything considered "masculine" whether it actually is or not).

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, filovirus said:

Not true. I am a restaurant health inspector. We only inspect church kitchens that are open to the public. Many religions have community meals for homeless, needy, etc and they are open for anyone to come in.

LDS events are considered private events. They can do any and all cooking without a restaurant license.

I believe this depends on location.

And if so, it makes sense to me to have a Church wide policy so mistakes are less likely to be made given the often mobile membership that may carry practices with  them when they move.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Calm

[filovirus]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I believe this depends on location.

 Perhaps. We use the same health code as 46 other states. It's the national code. I'd be surprised if the other few states did things differently than is in that regard. Maybe other countries. The distinction is private vs public.

Heck, we licence movie theatres that only serve soda with ice. Size and ability of a kitchen is a non factor for licensure. 

[Calm]

The Church is much bigger than the US.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Calm

[ksfisher]

7 minutes ago, filovirus said:

 Perhaps. We use the same health code as 46 other states. It's the national code. I'd be surprised if the other few states did things differently than is in that regard. Maybe other countries. The distinction is private vs public.

Heck, we licence movie theatres that only serve soda with ice. Size and ability of a kitchen is a non factor for licensure. 

Perhaps it’s fire code then.  Or insurance.

Edited November 2, 2017 by ksfisher

[filovirus]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

The Church is much bigger than the US.

Do you know of a country that would licence a private kitchen? Honestly, I've never looked into it. Just imagine the extra workload governments employees would have if they needed to inspect every church kitchen from every religion. Glad I work in the states.

[hope_for_things]

27 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

They are not compatible with our understanding of Gospel Principles. In fact, the notion of a "same sex marriage" - to say nothing of a "same sex Temple sealing" is diametrically opposed to LDS theology and soteriology.

The position of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on those matters is laid out in "The Family - A Proclamation to the World." Since that is the position of the Church, it rather relentlessly follows that an argument in direct opposition thereto is not an LDS position.

Speaking for myself, again I disagree, and if you haven’t read Taylor Petrey’s article from Dialogue from a few years back I recommend you consider it.  Certainly some change would have to happen with the current positions of the Church including to the proclamation, but nothing fundamentally important to core doctrines would need to change.  

32 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

Oh, I see. Another member of the "When-the-brethren-are-smart-enough-to-agree-with-me-then-they'll-be-in-touch-with-God" club.

Well, I'm not joining that club. I'd rather be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

You have to really earn your membership to this club, as opposed to the “I-can’t-do-anything-but-praise-the-brethren-and-their-propaganda-club”, which really only requires that you check your brain at the entrance.  Ironically we’re both members of the same church, fancy that.  

[hope_for_things]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

"Perhaps you aren't aware that men don't have an automatic own-group preference based on gender like women do."

Huh?

I think this was his attempt to accuse me of reverse bias against men, which is an odd phenomenon in such a patriarchal society.  

[hope_for_things]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

If they require people to wear garments, then they need to provide garments that they are able to wear.

I’m confused are you suggesting some people would be unable to wear a two piece garment?