Church will no longer participate in Varsity Scouts/Venturing

[SeekingUnderstanding]

10 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

This is a much bigger change that dropping varsity/venture.

The quote from the letter states: "Mutual activities are generally held weekly but can be held less frequently based on needs and circumstances of quorum members, but they should be held at least monthly (see Handbook 2, 8.13.1)."

 

For YW the handbook states (10.8.1):

Mutual is generally held weekly. If travel or other restrictions make this impractical, Mutual may be held less frequently, but it should be held at least monthly. Mutual should be 1 to 1½ hours long and should take place on a day or evening other than Sunday or Monday.

Edited May 11, 2017 by SeekingUnderstanding

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

Is that for certain age groups or for everyone?

The FP letter with the new guidelines is available to all on YMActivities.lds.org or here is the direct link:  https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/callings/young-men/14920_000_letter.pdf?lang=eng

The highlights for me:

1.  It recommends an annual multi-day youth conference or high-adventure activity.

2.  It encourages more combined boy-girl activities for the 14+ ages.

3.  As Rongo indicated, it mentions that you can reduce frequency where/when appropriate.

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

No, I don't think the girls are doing better than the boys which ought to make us question (and apparently has made leadership question) why we keep spending the extra money on boys.

But, the inequity amounts to more than just "Johnny got a red candy and Sally got a green candy".  I have a 9 year daughter who notices the differences (this is on her own, not prompted by my wife or I).  She was aware of what her brothers did in cub scouts and compares that to what she gets to do in activity days.  It isn't just that there is a difference in budgets, it is what those budgets represent.

And now that we know our leaders are aware of the disparity and taking action to address it, I imagine we'll see additional changes for the 8-13 age groups.

Can you please describe how the girls are doing worse?  Where is the program lacking that is directly tied to the budget allotted?  Please be specific.

I appreciate your 9 year old daughter notices differences.  Does she actually know at this age what girls for activities?  Are these problems descriptive of the Church program or the local congregation?  I am asking sincere questions because I don't know.  I also reject the premise that because one child sees differences in activities that the budget is the reason.

What does a budget represent?  I ask this because what comes to mind is scenarios where an education at BYU has a specific cost.  I can list a number of alternative universities where the costs are significantly, multiples of higher costs, for the same BA degree but are judged inferior programs when compared to BYU.  What I am trying to communicate is that budgets or dollars are not the best indicator of value.  

We moved often when our children were growing.  Our son was a scout in a few different wards.  The ward he was in the longest had a terrible scouting program.  However, the sister ward in our building had an outstanding scouting program.  We got him in the other ward's program and as a result he received his Eagle.  I don't really know the budgets for each program, but I know that the individuals involved in the programs made the difference.  The value was in the leaders of the program and not in the money spent.  It is for this reason that when I hear complaints about budgets I am not swayed to immediately think there is a real problem.  I am more inclined to look at the leaders and their actions and interest in helping the youth.  

 

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

A side topic, but this is interesting, pardon if already mentioned.  I suspect this will be happening sooner than later.

"Is this a reaction to the news that the Boy Scouts of America is considering the inclusion of girls and young women in its programs?

• Church leaders learned just recently about the BSA’s intent to consider including girls and young women in Scouting."

 

For some reason, I imagined this quote when the idea of boys and girls participating together was mentioned:

Quote

Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!

Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...

The dead rising from the grave!

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S4cldkdCjE&t=2m14s

 

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by cinepro

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

I've found by experience (former ward) that budgets are really arbitrary, and that both auxiliary leaders and bishoprics are really just pulling numbers out of the air --- and often have to adjust the budget later in the year to reflect the reality of the needs that emerged. 

I let the auxiliaries know what our quarterly allotment was, and they propose activities. Based on what we have, we all figure out what we need for that quarter (with an eye towards future quarters, such as a Christmas party, etc.). I've never had to tell an organization "no" on an activity they want to do, and it's easy for them to see that they have, say, $300 available for this or that activity. A lot easier than just telling YW that they have $2000 for the year, and then what the stake requires for girls camp puts them over, and you have to juggle the numbers and reduce another organization so that it "balances."

The "budget" is just an internal list that allows leaders to earmark amounts to each organization, but I have found it to be much better to work with the whole budget instead of what I or we  think each organization will need.

I've never had auxiliary presidencies who knew, on the dot, how much their planned year would cost. Not really. 

That's too bad.

Budgeting is essential to planning. Budgets should not be arbitrary and really only would be if there isn't a process in place to plan activities and request the resources they need. IMO budgeting and planning is essential to ward leadership developing and reaching to accomplish any kind of vision or ambition for improvement. If done correctly, the planning/budgeting process can be very exciting and inspiring, not to mention a great tool for accountability.

[rockpond]

19 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Can you please describe how the girls are doing worse?  Where is the program lacking that is directly tied to the budget allotted?  Please be specific.

I don't think the girls are doing worse.  I was responding to the statement about whether "boys were doing better".

21 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I appreciate your 9 year old daughter notices differences.  Does she actually know at this age what girls for activities?  Are these problems descriptive of the Church program or the local congregation?  I am asking sincere questions because I don't know.  I also reject the premise that because one child sees differences in activities that the budget is the reason.

That isn't my premise (that the "budget is the reason").  My daughter notices the difference between the boys programs and the girls programs.  She is in activity days, so she obviously knows that program.  And she spent many years watching her brothers go through cub scouts.  The budget is more of a symptom of the policies that dictate the programs and how they are run.  Activity days is limited to two hours per month.  Cub Scouts is supposed to follow the BSA program which means a LOT more than 2 hours per month.

25 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

What does a budget represent?  I ask this because what comes to mind is scenarios where an education at BYU has a specific cost.  I can list a number of alternative universities where the costs are significantly, multiples of higher costs, for the same BA degree but are judged inferior programs when compared to BYU.  What I am trying to communicate is that budgets or dollars are not the best indicator of value.  

I assume that's a rhetorical question.  I agree that budget is not the best indicator of value.  Since I haven't suggested otherwise, I'm not sure what else to say in that regard.

26 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

We moved often when our children were growing.  Our son was a scout in a few different wards.  The ward he was in the longest had a terrible scouting program.  However, the sister ward in our building had an outstanding scouting program.  We got him in the other ward's program and as a result he received his Eagle.  I don't really know the budgets for each program, but I know that the individuals involved in the programs made the difference.  The value was in the leaders of the program and not in the money spent.  It is for this reason that when I hear complaints about budgets I am not swayed to immediately think there is a real problem.  I am more inclined to look at the leaders and their actions and interest in helping the youth.  

I agree.  It isn't about the budgets.  My wife runs, what I believe is, an amazing activity days program.  And she does it on shoestring.  What concerns me is the policy issues that create the disparity between girls and boys in the church.

[cinepro]

25 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Can you please describe how the girls are doing worse?  Where is the program lacking that is directly tied to the budget allotted?  Please be specific.

 

 

Are you serious?  I'm a huge fan of the Cub Scout program, but if you think there isn't a huge difference in budget and quality of activities between the Cub Scout Program and "Activity Days" for the girls, you're being willfully delusional.

 

[ksfisher]

50 minutes ago, rongo said:

I just got the FP letter on this in my inbox. Among other guidelines, it opens up the possibility of not having weekly activities. My ward has already been considering this, with passionate feelings on both sides. In the Spirit of the Elder Cook quote I shared, and in keeping with the counsel over the last decades about freeing up family time and reducing the time and money costs of membership, I would welcome non-weekly activities (the letter puts the minimum at one per month). There are those who feel that not having them weekly puts youth at risk, and I am sensitive to the need that some families have that stronger families don't (as far as the Church providing activities for their youth). 

I would imagine that the less than weekly activity proviso is to accommodate units with long travel distances.

At the same time that the letter opens up the possibility of less than weekly activities it also suggests that combined activities with the young women could be held more than once a month.  I believe that the First Presidency desires that local leaders, after prayer and counseling together, put together a program that would best suite the needs of the young men under their stewardship while at the same time acknowledging local limitations.

[gopher]

Now I don't feel so bad about forgetting to donate to Friends of Scouting this year (I usually do contribute, often reluctantly).  In my area, BSA claims it costs them $225 a year per boy to run their programs.  I've never understood what the Varsity and Venture scouts get from BSA.  Maybe it's worth it for the insurance?

Our Activity girls do their own week long summer day camp.  I think the Primary presidency came up with the idea and implements it each year.

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

 

Are you serious?  I'm a huge fan of the Cub Scout program, but if you think there isn't a huge difference in budget and quality of activities between the Cub Scout Program and "Activity Days" for the girls, you're being willfully delusional.

 

Ginger Snaps, Bluebell, and SeekingUnderstanding and any others that act as if we should assume sincerity from others - I do love a good hypocrite, the self-righteous, and the sanctimonious:

Though I don't deny that I may be ignorant, I can assure you that I am not willfully delusional.  I am just not current on either program.  It has been decades since I participated in the cub scout program or those of our children.  I simply don't know what is going on today.  Do you know how the programs work church wide?  Do you know of differences in your own stake?  Do you think both programs work the same way throughout the world?  You seem to speak as if you are knowledgeable and informed.  Please share and please be specific.  I am like most humans and enjoy when another human prefers to demean rather than inform, but this old, ignorant fellow is looking for reality rather than what I see as a concern over differences without the actual differences being defined.  Further, I want to know how the budget impacts those differences.  

Edited May 11, 2017 by Storm Rider

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, Storm Rider said:

Though I don't deny that I may be ignorant, I can assure you that I am not willfully delusional.  I am just not current on either program.  It has been decades since I participated in the cub scout program or those of our children.  I simply don't know what is going on today.  Do you know how the programs work church wide?  Do you know of differences in your own stake?  Do you think both programs work the same way throughout the world?  You seem to speak as if you are knowledgeable and informed.  Please share and please be specific.  I am like most humans and enjoy when another human prefers to demean rather than inform, but this old, ignorant fellow is looking for reality rather than what I see as a concern over differences without the actual differences being defined.  Further, I want to know how the budget impacts those differences.  

The main differences are these:

• Activity Days is restricted to two hour-long meetings each month (per church handbook).  Beyond saying that they should work on Faith in God, there isn't a specific program so it is really created by local leaders.
• The handbook recommends that units in the US run a cub scout program.  Generally speaking, cub scouts meet every week and there are additional activities outside of the weekly meetings.  The cost of awards plus certain activities that are a part of the program (blue & gold banquet, pinewood derby) drive the budget to often be much higher than activity days.

[Storm Rider]

31 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I don't think the girls are doing worse.  I was responding to the statement about whether "boys were doing better".

That isn't my premise (that the "budget is the reason").  My daughter notices the difference between the boys programs and the girls programs.  She is in activity days, so she obviously knows that program.  And she spent many years watching her brothers go through cub scouts.  The budget is more of a symptom of the policies that dictate the programs and how they are run.  Activity days is limited to two hours per month.  Cub Scouts is supposed to follow the BSA program which means a LOT more than 2 hours per month.

I assume that's a rhetorical question.  I agree that budget is not the best indicator of value.  Since I haven't suggested otherwise, I'm not sure what else to say in that regard.

I agree.  It isn't about the budgets.  My wife runs, what I believe is, an amazing activity days program.  And she does it on shoestring.  What concerns me is the policy issues that create the disparity between girls and boys in the church.

Thank you for your responses; I appreciate it.

I thought it was already stated on this thread that the individual programs run differently at the stake level and that the two hour limit was a suggestion rather than a requirement.  

I am not sure I understand your intent when you stated, "The budget is more of a symptom of the policies that dictate the programs and how they are run."  Could you elaborate on that?  

The thread has many examples about a complaint, apparently recognized by the Church leadership as you have stated a few times, about budget amounts for girls versus for the boys.  What I am trying to understand is what exactly the budget has to do with the actual programs and the relevant impacts on the girls or the boys.  If there is a detrimental impact  on girls or boys, what is it.  I think the Church's step to remove itself from the scouting program after a certain age is a step in the direction of attempting to improve what we offer our young men.  In other words, the money spent of that program was not providing a good return.  

Everything that I have read on the condition of boys in US society laments that boys are falling behind girls.  I read a study this week and it was pointing out that the gap is getting broader and girls are widening the gap.  I have been wondering if that is true within the Church also and I suspect it is.  

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Hey Tacenda, we do have a daughter, but she never complained about what the boys have versus what the girls have.  She has had several roles in the Young Women's program and has never complained about a difference between boys and girls activities.  Did your daughter say anything?  If so, please share it.

Yes, and what they would see all the time is that the men would go on amazing scout trips. My husband was in the Young Men's and so was part of the scouting program also. The scouts went to places like Havasupai Falls in the Grand Canyon, Moab, Jackson Hole. And my daughters' camps were usually a church campground somewhere. Where in their words..."we made crafts". 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 If done correctly, the planning/budgeting process can be very exciting and inspiring, not to mention a great tool for accountability.

You're not an accountant, are you?   

[rockpond]

9 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Thank you for your responses; I appreciate it.

I thought it was already stated on this thread that the individual programs run differently at the stake level and that the two hour limit was a suggestion rather than a requirement.  

I am not sure I understand your intent when you stated, "The budget is more of a symptom of the policies that dictate the programs and how they are run."  Could you elaborate on that?  

The thread has many examples about a complaint, apparently recognized by the Church leadership as you have stated a few times, about budget amounts for girls versus for the boys.  What I am trying to understand is what exactly the budget has to do with the actual programs and the relevant impacts on the girls or the boys.  If there is a detrimental impact  on girls or boys, what is it.  I think the Church's step to remove itself from the scouting program after a certain age is a step in the direction of attempting to improve what we offer our young men.  In other words, the money spent of that program was not providing a good return.  

Everything that I have read on the condition of boys in US society laments that boys are falling behind girls.  I read a study this week and it was pointing out that the gap is getting broader and girls are widening the gap.  I have been wondering if that is true within the Church also and I suspect it is.  

Handbook 1 states the 2-hour per month limit for activity days as a requirement, not a suggestion.  I was released at the end of last year with a ward change so I no longer have access to the exact wording.  If stakes are allowing activity days to meet more than twice per month, they are making the decision to NOT follow the handbook (which is fine) but I wouldn't say that the handbook has simply "suggested" it be that way.

I call the budget a symptom because 1) the limits place on girls activity (above) and 2) running a cub scout program requires paying for awards and holding certain activities (see my other response a couple posts above this one).

I don't know that the budget disparity has a detrimental impact on boys/girls.  But I agree with your statement that the church maybe recognizing that they money spent on scouting was not providing a good return.  I have long argued that we (local church units) could take the funds we pay each year to the BSA and produce AMAZING programs all on our own.  But some might counter (and fairly so) that it would take a lot of work to re-invent what the BSA already does.

Personally, I am now serving as 1st Counselor in the YM Presidency (and unlikely to be released anytime soon).  So, this change impacts my calling.  And... even though I am sad to see this "era" end in the church... and unsure of how we'll proceed with my two sons who are working toward Eagle right now... I am excited to create a program built around the principles, ideals, and guidelines in that FP letter from today!  Honestly, it won't change a whole lot from what I have already been doing but it will change a little and I think it will be for the better.

[Rock_N_Roll]

My first reaction to this news is – “It’s about time!” I’ve been in the YM program, either Varsity Scouts or Venturing, for many years – with a stint as Financial Clerk in the middle.   Although I earned my Eagle as a scout many years ago, I don’t see it as anything that has helped me in any way since.

The YM, especially those 16-18 that I work with now, are too busy to care about “Venturing” these days.  Many (most in my ward) are preparing for the missions they will go on soon after their 18^th birthday.  They are also working on their Duty to God, preparing to take the SAT tests, trying to graduate from High School and Seminary, working part-time jobs, playing on sports teams, dating, applying for college, etc.  Scouting is just one too many “other” things to worry about.

 

The YM leaders in my ward stopped worrying about Venturing a few years ago, thank goodness.  I went to one seminar on how to jump-start the program and have the boys start earning gold, silver, bronze medals, etc.  I came home and said “never again”!   

Also, as Finance Clerk, I noticed that the YM and YW’s budgets were even, but there was separate budget for “Scouting Awards”.

[ksfisher]

11 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Handbook 1 states the 2-hour per month limit for activity days as a requirement, not a suggestion.  I was released at the end of last year with a ward change so I no longer have access to the exact wording.  If stakes are allowing activity days to meet more than twice per month, they are making the decision to NOT follow the handbook (which is fine) but I wouldn't say that the handbook has simply "suggested" it be that way.

 

I'm not sure where in Handbook 1 that Activity Days would be talked about.  11.5.2 in Handbook 2 states that "Activity days are held no more than twice each month."  No guidance as to the duration of the activity. 

If you can point me towards which chapter in Handbook 1 might deal with activity days I would be happy to look it up, but I'm stumped as to where it would be found.

[Duncan]

I HATED Cubs and Scouts, primarily because they were always on Wed. nights and that's the night that Unsolved Mysteries hosted by Robert Stack was on.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

I HATED Cubs and Scouts, primarily because they were always on Wed. nights and that's the night that Unsolved Mysteries hosted by Robert Stack was on.

YW's conflicted with Rescue 911.  It was a tragedy.

[HappyJackWagon]

25 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You're not an accountant, are you?   

No, I'm not. But I'm very practical  

Budget is a tool of planning. Without planning people just fly by the seat of their pants and have mediocre programs.

 

We had each organization create goals for the year, describe how those goals would be met through activities, and what kind of budget was needed to carry out the activity and thus accomplish the goal. The activities were calendared so if we came to a calendared event and the organization wasn't holding it, we withdrew their funds they said they needed for that activity and gave it to another organization who had a plan and need for those funds. Almost immediately the organizations recognized it was unwise to cancel their planned activities without replacement activities in place. It worked really well.

[rongo]

Some thoughts:

1) Interesting in light of a "rah-rah" meeting/broadcast that was held in the Phoenix area in the last six months. The message was: We are "all in" with Scouts, and have never been more "all in" than we are right now. It appeared to be a "stay in the boat" type of meeting.

2) Currently, we have to get tour permits and go through mountains of liability paperwork for scout activities. I wonder how doing our own program affects this? Obviously, we won't have the insurance through BSA, but I'm not sure this was really a benefit, anyway. Luckily, I don't have firsthand experience with claims, but people I know who have have had a nightmare. When you need the insurance, BSA does all it can to disqualify you on technical grounds (i.e., your paperwork had better be airtight, or they will deny liability). 

The Church seems to skew towards the "legalistic/overly-protected paperwork legal" end of the spectrum. Maybe, be careful what you wish for?  

 

[Storm Rider]

56 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Yes, and what they would see all the time is that the men would go on amazing scout trips. My husband was in the Young Men's and so was part of the scouting program also. The scouts went to places like Havasupai Falls in the Grand Canyon, Moab, Jackson Hole. And my daughters' camps were usually a church campground somewhere. Where in their words..."we made crafts". 

Tacenda, that is a local issue and not a Church wide issue - at least in so far as trips boys take.  The trips that my son did were almost all local within 30 miles of our home.  The one I remember that was not was a canoeing trip in Oregon, but everything else was in and around the Cascade mountains where we lived.  

I am sorry, but I don't recall everything our daughter did.  I do remember the annual girls camp, which was a huge deal for her.  She really, really, REALLY liked girls camp.  She was very athletic and active in sports, which is to say that I don't recall her doing a lot of craft oriented things in the girls program.  If she did crafts at girl's camp she did not complain about it or at least it did not affect her overall enthusiasm for the program.  

[HappyJackWagon]

29 minutes ago, rongo said:

Some thoughts:

1) Interesting in light of a "rah-rah" meeting/broadcast that was held in the Phoenix area in the last six months. The message was: We are "all in" with Scouts, and have never been more "all in" than we are right now. It appeared to be a "stay in the boat" type of meeting.

2) Currently, we have to get tour permits and go through mountains of liability paperwork for scout activities. I wonder how doing our own program affects this? Obviously, we won't have the insurance through BSA, but I'm not sure this was really a benefit, anyway. Luckily, I don't have firsthand experience with claims, but people I know who have have had a nightmare. When you need the insurance, BSA does all it can to disqualify you on technical grounds (i.e., your paperwork had better be airtight, or they will deny liability). 

The Church seems to skew towards the "legalistic/overly-protected paperwork legal" end of the spectrum. Maybe, be careful what you wish for?  

 

Sadly this is the way all insurance companies work and it has been my experience that filing a claim with the church yields the same kind of result. I had a terrible experience trying to work with them on behalf of an elderly lady in our ward who slipped on ice in the parking lot, broke her leg in multiple places, had multiple surgeries and eventually an amputation of the leg. The most we ever got to help cover expenses was a total of $10,000 over a few years worth of procedures, hospital and rehab stays. Medicare paid for a lot but now she is in debt.

She would have done much better to sue the church.

[Duncan]

Just now, bluebell said:

YW's conflicted with Rescue 911.  It was a tragedy.

I loved that show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! William Shatner!

[Guest]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 It's not that the funds were being spent on activities. Badges and awards were by far the largest expense.

Which, BTW...the BSA sets the price, because they alone control the product. The Church can do a better job, and control costs. It seems that much of the thread has been about money (which is so stated by The Church), it may be true that for this reason money was different between Young Men and Young Women. But that is where it ends, between Priesthood and Relief Society, the lion share of monies go to Relief Society. It is also fair to note that each Ward building in most parts of the world, Relief Society and Young Women have their own rooms (very nice rooms) where the Priesthood, ages 12-100, have "no place to lay their head".