Church will no longer participate in Varsity Scouts/Venturing

[Storm Rider]

35 minutes ago, rockpond said:

In what ways do you believe that Activity Days and Beehives are better than Cubs, EYO, and Boy Scouts?

In my ward, the budget for Cubs is generally 500% to 600% larger than the budget for Act. Days.

Scouts meet 4-5 times per month plus campouts, service projects, etc.  Activity Days is restricted (as a matter of policy) to meet no more than 2 hours per month.

Activity Days isn't really a formal program.  There are some loose suggestions in the handbook.  Half of the Activity Days leaders in my ward are of the firm belief that they are just supposed to bring the girls together on those two afternoons each month for a big "playdate".

Question, after we have wasted all that money on these boys what do we have to show for it?  Are they doing better than the girls?  Have the girls fallen far behind the boys?

What I see is that money has absolutely nothing to do with the progress of LDS boys or girls.  All this whining about those evil boys get all the money and our poor, abused girls have nothing is a complain over nothing.  The real issue is what works and how are the youth doing?  

Now, if any of you can show how our girls have been left behind, please correct me.  If you can show me that all the money spent on boys has resulted in the boys progressing far and above the girls, please show it.  If not, what we have here is a complaint that Johnny got a red candy and Sally got a green candy - the impact of each candy is the same.

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

I was surprised this was said by church officials. From the Tribune, 

"Mormon officials say this latest move will help bridge the gap between what the faith spend on its Young Men program (including Scouting) and its Young Women offerings.

"This new program brings the spending into balance for youth ages 14 through 18," the church stated. "This will continue to be a factor in the ongoing exploration and creation of a worldwide youth program."

Interesting. Church leaders are also quoted deciding the following:

Quote

In January, the LDS Church said it was studying the Boy Scout’s decision to allow transgender children into the organization but that the Boy Scout’s would allow the church to maintain their religious beliefs regarding gay and transgender children while being affiliated with the Scouting program. The LDS Church said the decision to drop the Varsity and Venture program is not a response to the BSA’s recent policy changes.

Recently, the BSA has considered allowing girls into the Scouting program but has yet to make a decision. The LDS Church said it will continue to maintain its affiliation with the BSA and that Thursday’s decision was made before the church learned about the potential policy change to allow girls.

(Bold mine)

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=44204644

Could that be a temporary maintainance with the BSA?

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Darren10

[rockpond]

5 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Question, after we have wasted all that money on these boys what do we have to show for it?  Are they doing better than the girls?  Have the girls fallen far behind the boys?

What I see is that money has absolutely nothing to do with the progress of LDS boys or girls.  All this whining about those evil boys get all the money and our poor, abused girls have nothing is a complain over nothing.  The real issue is what works and how are the youth doing?  

Now, if any of you can show how our girls have been left behind, please correct me.  If you can show me that all the money spent on boys has resulted in the boys progressing far and above the girls, please show it.  If not, what we have here is a complaint that Johnny got a red candy and Sally got a green candy - the impact of each candy is the same.

No, I don't think the girls are doing better than the boys which ought to make us question (and apparently has made leadership question) why we keep spending the extra money on boys.

But, the inequity amounts to more than just "Johnny got a red candy and Sally got a green candy".  I have a 9 year daughter who notices the differences (this is on her own, not prompted by my wife or I).  She was aware of what her brothers did in cub scouts and compares that to what she gets to do in activity days.  It isn't just that there is a difference in budgets, it is what those budgets represent.

And now that we know our leaders are aware of the disparity and taking action to address it, I imagine we'll see additional changes for the 8-13 age groups.

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Question, after we have wasted all that money on these boys what do we have to show for it?  Are they doing better than the girls?  Have the girls fallen far behind the boys?

What I see is that money has absolutely nothing to do with the progress of LDS boys or girls.  All this whining about those evil boys get all the money and our poor, abused girls have nothing is a complain over nothing.  The real issue is what works and how are the youth doing?  

Now, if any of you can show how our girls have been left behind, please correct me.  If you can show me that all the money spent on boys has resulted in the boys progressing far and above the girls, please show it.  If not, what we have here is a complaint that Johnny got a red candy and Sally got a green candy - the impact of each candy is the same.

Do you have daughters Storm? Ask them. Go to the source. 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/questions-answers-changes-young-men-program

Will the disparity of funding and activities that exists between the Church’s Young Men and Young Women programs be addressed as part of this change?

• Church leaders have long been aware of this concern. This new program brings the spending into balance for youth ages 14 through 18. This will continue to be a factor in the ongoing exploration and creation of a worldwide youth program.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Tacenda

[jbarm]

As a long-time Scout leader I have always known that the Scouting program ended at age 14.  Puberty destroys most boys interest in Scouting.

Good to see Church leaders finally recognizing this reality.

Based on the comments made by the Church in the statement, I believe this is just the first step leading to a complete exit from BSA in the next decade.

Makes sense, given the lack of an LDS Scout program outside of North America.

Sort of sad to see this tradition going away, but societal changes happen.

[HappyJackWagon]

34 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Question, after we have wasted all that money on these boys what do we have to show for it?  Are they doing better than the girls?  Have the girls fallen far behind the boys?

What I see is that money has absolutely nothing to do with the progress of LDS boys or girls.  All this whining about those evil boys get all the money and our poor, abused girls have nothing is a complain over nothing.  1- The real issue is what works and how are the youth doing?  

Now, if any of you can show how our girls have been left behind, please correct me.  2-If you can show me that all the money spent on boys has resulted in the boys progressing far and above the girls, please show it.  If not, 3-what we have here is a complaint that Johnny got a red candy and Sally got a green candy - the impact of each candy is the same.

1- Yes, the real issue is "what works"? Is spending all of that extra money on boys yielding the desired results that justify the extra funds? I don't know but it seems the church leaders are questioning what they are getting for their money.

2- I think you've got this backwards. I think it would need to be shown how spending the extra money has benefited. If it hasn't, it would make logical sense to discontinue spending that money.

3- No, not really. It would be more like giving Johnny 10 pieces of candy and only giving Sally 5 and then asking why 5 isn't good enough for Sally. There's no justification for the disparity other than culture and tradition.

 

[bluebell]

I'm concerned that this is going to lead to a lot of pressure on boys to get their eagle by the age of 13.  Scouting and I are not friends but both of our older boys have trudged through it.  

My oldest is 15 and is working on his eagle stuff this year and there have been some not-very-harmonious nights in our home in it's pursuit.   At this point i would probably be upset if he couldn't finish, after all the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth we've endured to get here.

My 12 year old is doing it but with this new announcement I don't think we'll aim for eagle unless HE wants it.  

[rockpond]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Do you have daughters Storm? Ask them. Go to the source. 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/questions-answers-changes-young-men-program

Will the disparity of funding and activities that exists between the Church’s Young Men and Young Women programs be addressed as part of this change?

• Church leaders have long been aware of this concern. This new program brings the spending into balance for youth ages 14 through 18. This will continue to be a factor in the ongoing exploration and creation of a worldwide youth program.

Yes... that statement from the Church seems to be putting us on notice that our involvement with BSA at all ages could be a temporary condition.

Think about this:  If bringing spending into balance and equalizing programs across the world are important to church leadership, the greatest disparities in that regard exist among the 8-13 age groups (NOT the 14-18 age groups).

[rockpond]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm concerned that this is going to lead to a lot of pressure on boys to get their eagle by the age of 13.  Scouting and I are not friends but both of our older boys have trudged through it.  

My oldest is 15 and is working on his eagle stuff this year and there have been some not-very-harmonious nights in our home in it's pursuit.   At this point i would probably be upset if he couldn't finish, after all the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth we've endured to get here.

My 12 year old is doing it but with this new announcement I don't think we'll aim for eagle unless HE wants it.  

I'm in the same boat... 15 yr old who just needs to do his project and a 13 yr old who is already a bit behind.

[Ginger Snaps]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

In what ways do you believe that Activity Days and Beehives are better than Cubs, EYO, and Boy Scouts?

In my ward, the budget for Cubs is generally 500% to 600% larger than the budget for Act. Days.

Scouts meet 4-5 times per month plus campouts, service projects, etc.  Activity Days is restricted (as a matter of policy) to meet no more than 2 hours per month.

Activity Days isn't really a formal program.  There are some loose suggestions in the handbook.  Half of the Activity Days leaders in my ward are of the firm belief that they are just supposed to bring the girls together on those two afternoons each month for a big "playdate".

Activity Days is based on the Faith in God program for girls and leaders are supposed to be designing activities that help the girls achieve the goals in the book. Note I said "supposed to be". I know in my own ward that's iffy at best. 

The AD girls do meet weekly in my ward. My husband is the bishop and he got  permission from the Stake Pres. to override the manual and have it weekly. Our Stake Pres is all about building a refuge and "saving the kids" (by which he means, keep the young people interested and engaged in the church) and he was totally on board with it. I know we aren't the only ward doing that, too. It makes me hopeful.

And, IMO, its huge that the church both openly acknowledged budget disparities between YM/YW programs but is taking steps to fix that. Interestingly, this hasn't been an issue in my ward for a while. Both the current and previous bishops (my husband was a counselor to the previous), at least, just gave equal amounts to both. But I know it's been an issue elsewhere. 

[Bobbieaware]

50 minutes ago, rockpond said:

No, I don't think the girls are doing better than the boys which ought to make us question (and apparently has made leadership question) why we keep spending the extra money on boys.

But, the inequity amounts to more than just "Johnny got a red candy and Sally got a green candy".  I have a 9 year daughter who notices the differences (this is on her own, not prompted by my wife or I).  She was aware of what her brothers did in cub scouts and compares that to what she gets to do in activity days.  It isn't just that there is a difference in budgets, it is what those budgets represent.

And now that we know our leaders are aware of the disparity and taking action to address it, I imagine we'll see additional changes for the 8-13 age groups.

I'm wondering what the chances are that intelligent and impressionable 9 to 10 year-old children who live in homes with outspoken progressive LDS parents, who frequently complain out loud about the Church and it's leaders, wouldn't begin to think and believe as the parents do even if they aren't directly involved in any of the conversations?

Edited May 11, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I don't disagree with your decision but I think the problem is that it would be difficult to get the boys through all the requirements with only twice monthly meetings.

It's a similar issue with funding... It costs a lot to run a full cub scout program.  As a bishop's counselor, I knew that I couldn't reduce the budget for the cubs, so I invited the activity days leaders to increase their budget to try getting closer to parity.  The activity days leaders bought shirts for the girls, they organized some outings, etc... their budget was still a fraction of cubs.

Maybe, but this illustrates the problem of trying setting church policy in a way that will serve the program versus serving the actual needs of all kids. The boys only think that weekly meetings are necessary because they need it to fulfill BSA programs and advancements. On the other hand girls only think that they need to meet 2 times monthly because their program is either easier or less important. The disparity of the programs sends the wrong message. I honestly don't care about BSA. The kid cares because we acculturate him to care about all of those little awards and beads. When it doesn't exist, they won't miss it.

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

Activity Days is based on the Faith in God program for girls and leaders are supposed to be designing activities that help the girls achieve the goals in the book. Note I said "supposed to be". I know in my own ward that's iffy at best. 

The AD girls do meet weekly in my ward. My husband is the bishop and he got  permission from the Stake Pres. to override the manual and have it weekly. Our Stake Pres is all about building a refuge and "saving the kids" (by which he means, keep the young people interested and engaged in the church) and he was totally on board with it. I know we aren't the only ward doing that, too. It makes me hopeful.

And, IMO, its huge that the church both openly acknowledged budget disparities between YM/YW programs but is taking steps to fix that. Interestingly, this hasn't been an issue in my ward for a while. Both the current and previous bishops (my husband was a counselor to the previous), at least, just gave equal amounts to both. But I know it's been an issue elsewhere. 

That's great that your ward AD girls meet weekly!

When I was in the bishopric, I wanted to give equal amounts to the YW and YM program but the problem we faced is that scouting required so much money that there just wasn't enough left in the overall budget to make YW and AD equal.

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

Activity Days is based on the Faith in God program for girls and leaders are supposed to be designing activities that help the girls achieve the goals in the book. Note I said "supposed to be". I know in my own ward that's iffy at best. 

The AD girls do meet weekly in my ward. My husband is the bishop and he got  permission from the Stake Pres. to override the manual and have it weekly. Our Stake Pres is all about building a refuge and "saving the kids" (by which he means, keep the young people interested and engaged in the church) and he was totally on board with it. I know we aren't the only ward doing that, too. It makes me hopeful.

And, IMO, its huge that the church both openly acknowledged budget disparities between YM/YW programs but is taking steps to fix that. Interestingly, this hasn't been an issue in my ward for a while. Both the current and previous bishops (my husband was a counselor to the previous), at least, just gave equal amounts to both. But I know it's been an issue elsewhere. 

That's great. Our SP wouldn't allow us to increase AD so we had to cut cubs to equal things out.

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I'm wondering what the chances are that intelligent and impressionable 9 to 10 year-old children who live in homes with outspoken progressive LDS parents, who frequently complain out loud about the Church and it's leaders, wouldn't begin to think and believe as the parents do, even if they aren't directly involved in any of the conversations?

My daughter doesn't have "outspoken progressive LDS parents, who frequently complain out loud about the Church and its leaders".  To the extent that I am what you may call "progressive", I don't ever share those thoughts with my younger kids.  And for the latter HALF of her life, I was sitting on the stand next to the Bishop.  And her mom is a fully orthodox and traditional Mormon.  Trust me, her recognition of the inequity in the church between boys and girls came all on her own.

I'm curious... are you suggesting that the inequity between 8-13 year old boys and girls in the church does not exist?

Edited May 11, 2017 by rockpond

[revelstoked]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's great. Our SP wouldn't allow us to increase AD so we had to cut cubs to equal things out.

What does the budget disparity look like when you take out the cost of the badges and awards?  In my experience awards have been the main driver for the amount of money spent on cub scouts.  When they went from inexpensive beads to beltloops for everything cubs teh cost of awards actually went up.

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Maybe, but this illustrates the problem of trying setting church policy in a way that will serve the program versus serving the actual needs of all kids. The boys only think that weekly meetings are necessary because they need it to fulfill BSA programs and advancements. On the other hand girls only think that they need to meet 2 times monthly because their program is either easier or less important. The disparity of the programs sends the wrong message. I honestly don't care about BSA. The kid cares because we acculturate him to care about all of those little awards and beads. When it doesn't exist, they won't miss it.

Oh yeah... I don't think the boys care about getting all the awards in cub scouts.  It just seems difficult to get them through all the required advancements with twice a month meetings.  But I'm no expert on cub scouts.  Maybe it works just fine.  Either way, I would have fully sustained such a decision by the bishop or primary presidency of my ward.

[thesometimesaint]

I enjoyed my Scouting years. But I do understand the desirability of going on a different tract.

[ksfisher]

16 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's great. Our SP wouldn't allow us to increase AD so we had to cut cubs to equal things out.

Why is your stake president determining this?  As long as I've been involved with budgets in my ward I don't think we've ever had any input from the stake regarding ward organizational budgets.  Those fall under the stewardship of the bishop.

[HappyJackWagon]

14 minutes ago, revelstoked said:

What does the budget disparity look like when you take out the cost of the badges and awards?  In my experience awards have been the main driver for the amount of money spent on cub scouts.  When they went from inexpensive beads to beltloops for everything cubs teh cost of awards actually went up.

 It's not that the funds were being spent on activities. Badges and awards were by far the largest expense.

[stemelbow]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm concerned that this is going to lead to a lot of pressure on boys to get their eagle by the age of 13.  Scouting and I are not friends but both of our older boys have trudged through it.  

My oldest is 15 and is working on his eagle stuff this year and there have been some not-very-harmonious nights in our home in it's pursuit.   At this point i would probably be upset if he couldn't finish, after all the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth we've endured to get here.

My 12 year old is doing it but with this new announcement I don't think we'll aim for eagle unless HE wants it.  

There does not need to be a venture or varsity program for boys to continue to work on their eagle beyond 13.  I don't see this having an impact on that. 

[HappyJackWagon]

13 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Oh yeah... I don't think the boys care about getting all the awards in cub scouts.  It just seems difficult to get them through all the required advancements with twice a month meetings.  But I'm no expert on cub scouts.  Maybe it works just fine.  Either way, I would have fully sustained such a decision by the bishop or primary presidency of my ward.

I agree. But it's an arbitrary program created by BSA. A cynical person might point out how smart it is (business-wise) to create so many awards and advancements (which cost a ton of money) that the boys have to attend more often so they can earn them all.

But sometimes we have to step outside the matrix and see it for what it is. A nice program with some very good qualities, but not one that we should build the religious community of our youth around, especially when it requires vast disparity of resources simply to keep up with the program.

[rongo]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

In what ways do you believe that Activity Days and Beehives are better than Cubs, EYO, and Boy Scouts?

Because it is leader/class presidency initiative instead of the extortionately expensive pyramid scheme that is BSA. In my ward, AD and YW work on their Faith in God/Personal Progress and plan activities that help them explore careers, prepare for the future, etc. The boys "do" scouting.

Quote

In my ward, the budget for Cubs is generally 500% to 600% larger than the budget for Act. Days.

I've said this before, but I don't do a budget in my ward (i.e., YM get X, YW get Y, Primary gets Z, RS gets Q, etc.). We have our budget allotment (typically, around $13,000 per year), and we do all of our activities off of this. When you subtract the amount for awards and BSA camps, the women/girls actually get more then the boys/men. That's why a lot of us are thrilled with any draw-down with BSA: it will enable us to use more budget money for things that actually benefit our ward.

Quote

Scouts meet 4-5 times per month plus campouts, service projects, etc.  Activity Days is restricted (as a matter of policy) to meet no more than 2 hours per month.

I think this should be the norm. I shared this quote from Gene R. Cook in my ward conference talk last month (main point: the family should be the the heart and focus of activity and commitment, not church programs and activities):

Quote

Perhaps our family has a different perspective than most because we have lived outside the United States for so many years. In some of the countries in Latin America, there are almost no school or other activities to which the children could go that were not very worldly and that didn't involve the use of tobacco and alcohol. The Church in those countries was in a basic developmental stage and thus offered few activities. My wife and I soon saw that we would have to be the "activities committee" for our family.

When we arrived home in Utah, we returned to a very active ward. In fact, in our first three months, we counted thirty-nine activities to which we were invited as a family or as individuals--Young Women's activities, the annual Relief Society anniversary, the high priests' ice-cream social, Scouting affairs, and on and on. If I'm not mistaken, we went to about three of those activities as a family, and some of the children attended a few more.

Soon after that, our good bishop told me he was worried about my family. I said, "If you know something I don't, I'd be very anxious to know. Please tell me."

"Well," he said, "I have a feeling that your family isn't as supportive of the Church as they ought to be. For example, last Sunday night we had a Scouting meeting for all the Scouts and their families in the stake. At the meeting, they counted the number of people in each ward. The ward having the most people present won a prize. Because your large family was not there, we didn't feel you were supporting the Church as much as you should." (He said all of that very carefully, lovingly, and with good spirit.)

I said to him, "Well, I might be mistaken, Bishop, but my understanding is that the Church is supposed to support the family. If we had been to that social meeting that night, we would have missed the tremendous family devotional we had in our home." I asked him if he'd ever seen our children miss priesthood meeting, sacrament meeting, Sunday School, or Mutual. He said he had not. I continued, "I understood that all those other were electives, that they were optional, and that we could choose which ones we wanted to attend. Is that not true?" He wasn't too sure.

Then I said to this good bishop, "Do you know what my biggest problem has been since I returned home from Latin America?"

He said, "No, what is it, Brother Cook?"

I said, "It's been the Church itself, and perhaps the school here to some extent."

He said, "What do you mean?"

I said, "Because I travel a lot on the weekends, the week nights are very important to me, as are Saturday and Sunday if I'm home. I must have that time with my own family. In Latin America we had family home evening almost every night. I don't mean a lesson; I mean just a fun time.

"Sometimes we carved things. Sometimes we built things. Sometimes we took walks around the block. Sometimes we helped the widows or ministered to others in need. Sometimes we had lots of fun with other families. But since I've come home it's been difficult because some group has my children on Tuesday night, another group on Wednesday, and somebody else on Thursday, and they are with their friends on Friday night. My biggest challenge has been all of these activities going on outside the home."

This faithful bishop was quite shocked at my response, but I'm sure he understood. I suggested there might be wisdom in having the family heads in the ward determine how many activities there ought to be, and then in helping parents understand that they--not the Church or the school--were primarily in charge of the activities in their family.

In the following months, with the planning and involvement of parents, this good bishop greatly reduced the number of activities in our ward. He also retaught the principle that parents were to hold activities with their own children, and that in its support role the Church would sponsor some group activities as well. (It should also be mentioned that he knew, as did we, that we had to provide more activities than "the ideal" to help families who had greater needs than we did.)

------------

A "core value" for me is that the Church should support the family, not the family should support the Church. We often mistake the scaffolding for the building in the Church (Harold B. Lee analogy) 

Quote

Activity Days isn't really a formal program.  There are some loose suggestions in the handbook.  Half of the Activity Days leaders in my ward are of the firm belief that they are just supposed to bring the girls together on those two afternoons each month for a big "playdate".

That's the risk when we "teach correct principles and let them govern themselves," but the benefits outweigh the risks.

Edited May 11, 2017 by rongo

[HappyJackWagon]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Why is your stake president determining this?  As long as I've been involved with budgets in my ward I don't think we've ever had any input from the stake regarding ward organizational budgets.  Those fall under the stewardship of the bishop.

I'm talking about frequency of meetings, not budget. The handbook limits AD to 2 weeks but allows up to 5 weeks (obviously in the months with 5 weeks) for cubs. I don't recall the precise language of the handbook, but we when we attempted to increase AD to every week he told us it was "adding meetings" that weren't in the handbook.

[RevTestament]

45 minutes ago, jbarm said:

As a long-time Scout leader I have always known that the Scouting program ended at age 14.  Puberty destroys most boys interest in Scouting.

Good to see Church leaders finally recognizing this reality.

This was our experience with our boys. They loved cub scouts and boy scouts, roller derbies etc, but once they hit High School, sports, etc, "boy scouts" became kind of passe' although our second one continued strong in it through the Order of the Arrow. Our last one sorta lost all interest, and we kinda pushed him, but he may not get his eagle - he only has a few months left.

Quote

Based on the comments made by the Church in the statement, I believe this is just the first step leading to a complete exit from BSA in the next decade.

Makes sense, given the lack of an LDS Scout program outside of North America.

Sort of sad to see this tradition going away, but societal changes happen.

I believe a new Church-based program would be more tailor-suited to the needs of LDS adolescents and provide a way to extend youth activities Church-wide which is important since now there are more international members than US members. It's not like scouts has a corner on the adolescent-programs "market." This will allow the Church to explore new social programs and activities, and find things that really work for our teens.