BYU Study on Pornography: "It’s not porn use, but rather the belief in porn addiction and the conflict with religion, which predict porn-related problems."

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

...for your area.   

CFR. Back at you.

[Bernard Gui]

Sorry, MVG, I'm not going down this rabbit hole again with you. Believe what you want.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

The bold part is not suggested anywhere in the study.  This study was more interested in the correlation of P use and ED.  No correlation, in case anyone was worried 

What it did show as correlative was the amount of P use with higher sexual arousal during viewing (the more you watch, the more it affects you), and higher desire for both partner and solo sexual behaviors.  It also found a correlation between increased P use with "many negative mental health outcomes" including depression and alcohol consumption. 

According to the second article, the more you watch P the more your brain shrinks in some places,

The first article corroborates this.  The article is found here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050060/

The first article shows that not only do "natural addictions" (food, sex, P, etc.) use the same reward pathways as exogenous drugs, but they can cause identical anatomical shrinkage in parts of the brain. 

Another good article to consider: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26393658

 

Thank you. The science around this issue is changing rapidly. I think we can all agree that it's not a good idea  to use porn. No one wins except those who get the money. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

I remain somewhat perplexed as to why a man who claims to be a member of the church never misses an opportunity to promote pornography and similar "activities".

I ask this question sincerely - do you honestly think that Heavenly Father looks down on his children who have chosen the so-called career of performing sexual acts with random people, having those acts filmed and sold for profit, and for the sexual gratification of the viewers - that Heavenly Father is pleased?

I suspect that you will refuse to answer the question, and will instead throw your usual snit.

But I have no doubt that our Heavenly Father's response is not one of approval or of joy in such a choice. Or even a nonchalant..."eh, no harm done".  I can only imagine the response being that of a heartbroken father, knowing the dark path they are choosing and wishing to spare them the heartache and devastation ahead.

Indeed. That is why I asked the question, "Did the study ask if the participants felt the Holy Spirit leave them whenever they turned on the porn?"

[Duncan]

On 5/2/2017 at 1:36 PM, pogi said:

Good questions. Yes, if P was inaccessible, relationship anxiety would still exist.  As Bluedreams correctly stated, you can't just get rid of the P.  Doing so without addressing the core issues will simply cause new/different manifestations of the same problem.  

You are also correct that P should not be the main focus.  That would be equivalent to treating/reducing leg edema without addressing the congestive heart failure which is causing the edema.  In other words, sobriety should not be the goal, recovery should be the ultimate goal.  There is a BIG difference. 

John Bradshaw, author of Healing the Shame that Binds You, does believe that toxic shame is at the core of all addiction.  I think that I agree with him from my extensive experience with addicts.  It can manifest itself in many, many different ways.  You would never suspect toxic shame in some people because they can present as super-human, over achievers; the center of attention, the prom queens or captain of the football team, the straight A students, the business super-stars, the perfectionists, the popular kids.  These people often do not appear to have any form of relationship anxiety whatsoever, and they might not even recognize it in themselves because they are comfortable in the mask they are wearing and can act the part without anxiety - but inside they will feel alone, even surrounded by friends.  People can isolate in plain site.  What is anxiety inducing is revealing the true-self, removing the mask of the perfect kid, and forming genuine relationships based on true emotional intimacy.  

I don't suspect that everyone who looks at P, even on a regular basis, is an "addict", some people view it for other reasons too. 

I saw a show on Oprah years ago about this lady who was a shopaholic and had over 300K in debt, her husband worked all the time at a great job but she felt neglected. To feel good she would buy stuff and then she felt bad about it and to overcome those bad feelings she would buy more stuff and it was this never ending cycle. I don't know how the couple fixed it beyond the show but her problem wasn't buying stuff it was her feelings of neglect from her husband. I think you could put in porn, food, ebay purchases, hoarding, etc into the mix and it's the same thing but just different items to get addicted to.

[MormonVideoGame]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

The first article corroborates this.  The article is found here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050060/

and response here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3115160/ published in Surg Neurol Int

"Hilton and Watts offered little, if any, convincing evidence to support their perspectives"

3 hours ago, pogi said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27235125

and response here 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301051116301867

3 hours ago, pogi said:

In other words, the body of evidence is "growing" to link CSB to substance addictions.  The lack of understanding makes it difficult to classify,

Dr. Marty Klein  ( Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Sex Therapist for over thirty years) cited the paper, please read context here 

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/skeptical-of-the-porn-skeptics/

and there is still no porn addiction in the medical field. The so-called "porn addiction" is like being addicted to video games, ancient scripture studies, movies, MDDB 

Maybe in the future, but no "porn addiction" for now. But I can see there is no overwhelming consensus on this issue 

Edited May 4, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

On 5/2/2017 at 9:01 PM, Calm said:

 I will let Pogi comment in detail

with all due respect, see my response above 

23 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

With porn addiction, they're often needing stronger and stronger stimulus to get the same effect 

Here are some research papers that conclude there is currently no porn addiction in the medical field 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301051115300107

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26893127

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3115160/

According to a paper published in J Sex Med, ""pornography or porn addiction" is not a formally recognized disorder and there is disagreement among researchers regarding its definition or even its existence"

and a interesting article 

"No, Dopamine is Not Addictive"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201701/no-dopamine-is-not-addictive

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Calm]

The dopamine article is simply refuting dopamine as addictive, it says nothing about addiction itself.

Disagreement/debate about existence means it is still unknown, not that it doesn't exist.

Bluedreams is an expert in the field.  You tend to talk in absolutes, overstating what articles actually say.

I think I will rely on her comments rather than your interpretation and extrapolation from your materials.

Even if it is conclusively proven that substance addiction is different than porn addiction****, it does not automatically preclude porn addiction from existing unless one insists all addictions must have an identical physical response to substance addiction.

****Your first article is less definite than you:

"This pattern appears different from substance addiction models."

Your second paper states there are known overlaps, but also gaps in knowledge and understanding which prevent current definite categorization:

"Overlapping features exist between CSB and substance use disorders. Common neurotransmitter systems may contribute to CSB and substance use disorders, and recent neuroimaging studies highlight similarities relating to craving and attentional biases. Similar pharmacological and psychotherapeutic treatments may be applicable to CSB and substance addictions, although considerable gaps in knowledge currently exist.

CONCLUSIONS:

Despite the growing body of research linking compulsive sexual behavior (CSB) to substance addictions, significant gaps in understanding continue to complicate classification of CSB as an addiction."

Edited May 4, 2017 by Calm

[Calm]

Your last article is the only one that comes close to what you claim:

"More hours viewing VSS was related to stronger experienced sexual responses to VSS in the laboratory, was unrelated to erectile functioning with a partner, and was related to stronger desire for sex with a partner.

CONCLUSIONS:

VSS use within the range of hours tested is unlikely to negatively impact sexual functioning, given that responses actually were stronger in those who viewed more VSS."

Stronger desire for sex with a partner or stronger sexual reposes do not equate to either strong satisfaction or stronger commitment to a single committed companion.  If sexual drive is actually increased, but a desire to maintain fidelity is decreased or a lower satisfaction (satisfaction is generally not level of sexual response, but how well responses match expectations) occurs with partner sex, then porn usage has likely increased sexual dissatisfaction overall as well as is destructive to relationships.

I am not claiming this is so, just showing how your study does not remove porn as harmful.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Calm

[MormonVideoGame]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

Disagreement/debate about existence means it is still unknown

I agree. So unknown also means it is not wise to conclude that adult p0rn is harmful and addictive. Can we agree on that? 

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

not that it doesn't exist.

but it currently doesn't exists in the medical field, or ""porn addiction" is not a formally recognized disorder", as of now. Can we agree on that? 

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not claiming this is so, just showing how your study does not remove porn as harmful.

According to Ana Bridges, PhD,  "Although some couples seem to benefit from pornography, that's not the case for everyone. When one partner uses porn at a high frequency — typically the men in the heterosexual couples Bridges has studied — there can be a tendency to withdraw emotionally from the relationship. Those men report "increased secrecy, less intimacy and also more depression," she says. It's not clear, however, whether pornography is the proverbial chicken or the egg. Does a person turn to pornography because he's already in an unsatisfying relationship? Or do women pull away and lose interest in sex when they discover their partner is spending quality time with adult film stars?"

So no need for accusations without enough evidence. Can we agree on that? 

Edited May 4, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Calm]

Do you read your quotes?  That some couples benefit does not mean it can't be harmful for others.  She goes on to say it may indeed be harmful for some relationships.

If your only claim is porn is not always harmful, but only sometimes, then please state it that way.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

with all due respect, see my response above 

Here are some research papers that conclude there is currently no porn addiction in the medical field 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301051115300107

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26893127

 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3115160/

According to a paper published in J Sex Med, ""pornography or porn addiction" is not a formally recognized disorder and there is disagreement among researchers regarding its definition or even its existence"

and a interesting article 

"No, Dopamine is Not Addictive"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201701/no-dopamine-is-not-addictive

 

As calm said this is my field of expertise. You do realize this is my bread and butter right? I'm well aware that there is currently no formal diagnosis for porn addiction. I have already mentioned that I have problems with the label. BUT that doesn't mean there isn't a serious problem. It just goes unrecognized by the medical field and the current parameters make it difficult to study and nail down. Escpecially when it has anything to do with sex. There are physiological medical disorders that were unrecognized and unnamed up until very very recently. Such as PGAD. There are simple things like female sexual arousal that the medical field still scratches their head about. When it comes to sexuality there are some major blindspots both in the medical and therapeutic field of study. It is heavily influenced by cultural constructs and biases as well as the parameters of scientific study makes it difficult to gain a full picture of it.

 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited May 4, 2017 by BlueDreams

[MormonVideoGame]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Disagreement/debate about existence means it is still unknown, not that it doesn't exist.

So think about it, something is unknown when there is not enough evidence or information. 

8 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

As calm said this is my field of expertise. You do realize this is my bread and butter right? I'm well aware that there is currently no formal diagnosis for porn addiction. I have already mentioned that I have problems with the label. BUT that doesn't mean there isn't a serious problem. It just goes unrecognized by the medical field and the current parameters make it difficult to study and nail down. Escpecially when it has anything to do with sex. There are physiological medical disorders that were unrecognized and unnamed up until very very recently. Such as PGAD. There are simple things like female sexual arousal that the medical field still scratches their head about. When it comes to sexuality there are some major blindspots both in the medical and therapeutic field of study. It is heavily influenced by cultural constructs and biases as well as the parameters of scientific study makes it difficult to gain a full picture of it.

Thanks for the reply. However, other experts disagree with you. So I rather become neutral on this issue. We can't recognize the unrecognizable until there is enough evidence, correct?  

[Calm]

Deleted because it is better to focus on what Bluedreams, who does this for a living, speak on the matter.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

21 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

So think about it, something is unknown when there is not enough evidence or information. 

Thanks for the reply. However, other experts disagree with you. So I rather become neutral on this issue. We can't recognize the unrecognizable until there is enough evidence, correct?  

Not exactly. Psychology is a bridge between culture, philosophy, and what works. People can treat it as a hard science....but it isn't. You're welcome to stay neutral. The research and data can also be conflictual. But it's not exactly that there is not enough evidence or information, its more like that information and evidence hasn't reached a consensus that therapists, doctors, etc can largely agree on as a phenomenon. And even when they do, that agreement can alter based on the generation and change in assumptions about patterns. In essence diagnosis is culturally derived. Diagnosis is based on what we give meaning to. Here's 2 funnier, non-sexual examples. I was with my friend who is from mexico. She was early on in her pregnancy and one of her sons was acting particularly clingy. She stated he was being particularly "chipi." There isn't an english word to describe this sudden wantonness in a child with a new pregnancy. But there is also one in Navajo. Our culture and language simply does not place significance to this sort of behavior...even though she was right, his behavior had noticeably alters, and this behavior clearly had meaning in a couple other cultures. We just don't recognize it. Likewise one sunday I had a conversation with a friend from church. She was having a hard time and was having an emotional break down. I sat with her and cried a bit with her and listened. Which made me late for dinner with the Nigerian side of my family and a couple of their guests (also african). I explained why and the nigerian women laughed and started talking about how this never happened in nigerian (breakdowns). They went on about it and theorizing why that wasn't a thing (better sense of community, just don't talk about that stuff, etc)....while I sat and thought to myself that I knew one person in this room would meet the criteria for PTSD as a child and I had seen another go to her room and fall apart when her father died. The experience was there. They just didn't name or recognize it. Ergo in their culture something normative in ours was basically unknown.

It's not about having enough evidence, it's about recognizing the phenomena and patterns as such. And then naming it and categorizing it in a way that is congruent with what we already acknowledge and believe.

 

With luv,

BD 

Edited May 4, 2017 by BlueDreams

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

CFR. Back at you.

Bernard, If you're joking you should really use a smiley face or something. Otherwise you appear to be serious.

If you are serious, all I can say is, "Dude, seriously?"

Let's recap the situation.

   -You say youth are not allowed to attend LDS ARP meetings.

   -I say youth can attend because I see it. I have youth currently in my ARP meetings.

   -I issue a CFR for a policy that youth are not permitted.

   -You say "I was instructed explicitly by my LDS Family Services regional director that youth were not to attend meetings when I asked about it. As a regional coordinator, I passed that on to the 7 stakes I represent. Since it was verbal rather than written, I can't satisfy your CFR."

   -I review the Administrative guide and can't find any mention of youth at all (again, indicating I'm right) but then I try to be conciliatory by suggesting that the difference between your experience and mine may be based on differing directions from Regional leaders and therefore is not a church-wide policy.

   -You go back and ask your regional guy, still not providing me any kind of written evidence or answer to the CFR, and state again that youth cannot attend meetings.

   -I say "in your area " based on what your regional director said. It sounds clear that it is not permitted in your area even though there is not a written policy

   -You then have the gall ask Me for a CFR for something you admittedly cannot substantiate. Not only does that not make any logical sense (what are you even CFR'ing?), but you are showing yourself to be very unreasonable and a touch belligerent when I was trying to be accommodating to your unverified claim of a "No Youth" policy.

Since you want to play this way, and I'm sorry this is necessary, I will still require you answer my CFR. Provide me the policy that youth cannot attend ARP meetings or retract your statement.

It would have been so much better if you had just played nice. Oh well. CFR. If you are right I will happily retract my claim that there is no policy.

 

[Anonymous Mormon]

I have read this thread with interest, as I am a Mormon who had a Pornography 'habit' of using 1 - 3 times every month or two for years, who then decided to call it addiction and attended the ARP program. So I wanted to give an opinion on this topic.

Here is a brief on my story. I am in my mid-30s and like most men my age, when the internet came to our house my parents had no idea and no filters. Although I can actually trace the roots of it much earlier, the Internet is where the access to pornography really took off for me. I continually felt bad about my usage and swore it off or repented of it repeatedly with every bishop I ever had and before my mission. Then once I got back the habit picked back up. I had dropped the habit for 6 months when I got married and I openly discussed it with my leaders during the process of preparing for my marriage and everyone had the same advice of "Great, glad that is over with. Now don't do it again."

But once married it kept happening off and on. Once early on in our marriage I tried working with my Bishop and telling my wife, but it broke my wife's heart and caused so much friction, that I decided to continue working on my own with God when a "relapse" occurred.

At that time I hated the word "addiction" because of the stigma and shame and because I had read all of the literature on addiction and I didn't fit the qualification. I only used pornography once in a while (sometimes I'd go months between using it) and it never impacted any day to day life or had negative consequences. At least that was what I thought.

The truth was though, now that I look back on it, that it did have major impacts. One major problem is that I objectified and lusted after every woman I saw. I couldn't see a woman without making a judgement call in my head of whether or not she was 'hot.' And if she was 'hot' then that is all I thought about when I saw her. Second, is that I was actively using pornography at work and wasting a lot of time for which I was being paid. Third, I was also actively deceiving and lying to my wife about it. And the saddest of all is even though I didn't think it impacted my relationship with my wife at all, it was actually devastating in ways I couldn't see. I felt like I had to have sex or else I would have a 'need' to 'self-medicate' and I had told my wife this when I first came forward about my addiction, so she felt a guilty obligation to have frequent sex. If she wasn't in the mood I would whine and pout like a child and be passive-aggressive until she was in tears and would consent to being intimate. I am ashamed to say that my desire for sex was more important than my wife's feelings and that just because she cried before, after, or during, I was always insistent that my 'needs' be met. So although I wasn't abusive physically or sexually, our sex life became just about my getting my 'needs' met and had no true emotional union.

Fast forward 10 years in our marriage, when I was on a business trip in Vegas and at 1 AM I was bored of just watching pornography in the hotel, so I decided to wander the streets of Vegas hoping that I could find some of the 'action' in real life. Thankfully, I just wandered around too nervous really go make any major mistakes, but it scared me. I realized that after 20 years of watching people act it out on the internet, I was ready to throw away my life in pursuit in real life. I had been planning how to go do it in real life in my head and was wanting to take the action. So I confessed to my wife and my bishop the WHOLE TRUTH. It was the hardest decision I ever made. And the fallout from it was the worst 9 months of my life.

My wife decided that I was an addict for me. I hated the term 'addict' but went to ARP, as well as sexaholics anonymous (even though I felt like I couldn't be a sexaholic because I had only ever had sex with my wife in my entire life). I did this because I was stuck and scared at how close I was to throwing everything away in pursuit of the fantasy. It was the best decision of my life. After attending those meetings, I changed my life, my views, and my definition of addiction. I am now 4 years clean and able to face life head on. 

There are a few key things that made the difference for me: 1) Honesty - the lying was what drove it into hiding and my thinking I could do it by myself. Having a group and a sponsor to whom I had to be honest and accountable on a daily basis (not just a bi-monthly basis like my bishop) was critical.  2) Surrender - this is a concept I learned in the group - that I could surrender the lust and bad feelings to God.  3) Feelings and Emotions Drive Addiction - I had no clue that the reason I was seeking out pornography was to escape my real life. I just thought it was a bad compulsive habit. Going to group, talking with others, and seeing a therapist helped me identify this.

A few thoughts on other topics people have discussed:

Powerlessness - A number of you are not fans of the term powerlessness. If by powerlessness you mean that you must attend a group every week for the rest of your life or you are going to relapse, I agree. However, I go by the step 1 of sexaholics anonymous which says:

1. We admitted that we were powerless over lust—that our lives had become unmanageable.

What I am powerless over is lust! It's not that I am a powerless person or unable to use free will. It's that I have trained and conditioned my brain that if I let lust into my life, that I will quickly spiral out of control. It's like an allergy. If I let myself indulge in lust, then I will very quickly keep indulging until I'm back to where I was with an unmanageable life. This is a truth I know from experience and I expect to be powerless over lust until I die. So I am okay accepting this fact and moving on, just like someone who is diabetic or allergic to bees just knows it and deals with it and moves on. It's okay to be powerless over things. In fact, it is required to let your faith in God grow.

What is Lustful - In an earlier post someone mentioned the old excuse of "Olympic Beach Volleyball isn't bad," but for me it has been and still can be an avenue for lust. If I am watching any woman's sporting event with my wife and watching it out of interest in what is happening in the game, this isn't bad. But if I am alone at my computer wanting to escape and decide to close the door to my office and pull up a beach volleyball video just to ogle the players and I don't know the teams, the score, or where the ball is, then that is straight up lust and for me would be crossing the line. It's not what I see, but how I am reacting to it. And only I know and God knows how I am doing on this.

Shame in the ARP - I don't believe that the ARP or calling it addiction causes shame in the least. In fact, going to a group of people who all shared the same issue I did and seeing that they were quality people made me feel less shame and more self-esteem.

Definition of Addiction - I don't know where the line crosses from frequent compulsive behavior to addiction. And I know that many professionals would say for me it was not an addiction and that I misdiagnosed myself. But for me calling it an addiction and dealing with it as such made all the difference. I spent 20 years calling it other names and pretending it wasn't a big deal and it never went away. So for me, it was positive to call it such and treat it as such, because I am now free of it (in that I am not doing so - I am not free of being powerless over lust)

Youth and Addiction - I disagree with using the term addiction for anyone before their mission, unless they can be clearly clinically diagnosed with it (I have met college students who fit this category). I have met high schoolers in ARP meetings and feel it is inappropriate for them to be there. I actually agree with this study that using the term addiction when discussing pornography habits of our young men and even those in college can cause damage.

12 Step Groups - I think you can definitely overcome addiction without a 12-step group - because that is the point of the gospel. I don't think you should have to attend a 12 step group for life. However, I attend a group every week and have for 4 years, just like I go to church weekly. And I will continue to both go to church and to a 12 step group weekly for the foreseeable future. 

ARP Program - There are lots of little things I'd like to see change the ARP program - just like things I'd like to see change with church on Sundays (starting with 2 hours instead of 3). Neither of them is perfect and both of them could improve. In fact, I prefer the SAL (Sex Addiction Lifeline) program over ARP and attend this one now instead. But I am still grateful the church has a program and for all those who helped me when I was attending.

Thank you for putting up with a long and semi-rambling first post.

[RevTestament]

Hello Anonymous

If I could rep you I would. What you wrote is very meaningful, and I'm sure will be helpful to others reading the forum. There is nothing like reading the confessions of someone from first-hand experience to help bring the issues into focus. The results of "this study" or "that study" often doesn't mean much anymore. There are often too many biases at play. Real experience and real testimony of what helps is practical, and I believe what men who want to change should rely on.

[pogi]

15 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I agree, but it also doesn't mean it will be classified in the future. Speculating about the future is a waste of time. As of today there are simply not enough evidences or reasons to classify it as an addiction. So what I said "there is currently no porn addiction in the medical field" is completely true.  

It would be more correct to say that P addiction is not recognized, at this time, as an official diagnosis.  It is not accurate to say that "there is no P addiction in the medical field", because some practitioners do recognize it and treat it as such...so in practice, yes, it does exist.  If your only argument is that there is not yet consensus or official designation, then we can agree.  The lack of classification does not diminish the negative and detrimental consequence it has personally had on me and others.  If it is not "technically" classified as an addiction, what do you technically call it when you want to stop something so bad because it is destroying your life, destroying your marriage, destroying your happiness, destroying your spirituality, shrinking your brain, and causes terrible withdrawals and mood swings; it causes you to lie to your loved ones and take unjustifiable risks in your marriage and work...yet trying to stop it literally causes you to curl up in a ball on the floor, crying for something to change - to make this go away!..and the only way that you know of to make it all go away is to turn to the old familiar numbness?  What is that called exactly?  Am I just so pathetic that I can't stop what I hate?

16 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

You realize that we didn't evolve to use the internet or to eat at Mcdonalds? 

Nor did we evolve to have explicit sexual materiel constantly at our finger tips on the internet.  

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Bernard, If you're joking you should really use a smiley face or something. Otherwise you appear to be serious.

If you are serious, all I can say is, "Dude, seriously?"

Let's recap the situation.

   -You say youth are not allowed to attend LDS ARP meetings.

   -I say youth can attend because I see it. I have youth currently in my ARP meetings.

   -I issue a CFR for a policy that youth are not permitted.

   -You say "I was instructed explicitly by my LDS Family Services regional director that youth were not to attend meetings when I asked about it. As a regional coordinator, I passed that on to the 7 stakes I represent. Since it was verbal rather than written, I can't satisfy your CFR."

   -I review the Administrative guide and can't find any mention of youth at all (again, indicating I'm right) but then I try to be conciliatory by suggesting that the difference between your experience and mine may be based on differing directions from Regional leaders and therefore is not a church-wide policy.

   -You go back and ask your regional guy, still not providing me any kind of written evidence or answer to the CFR, and state again that youth cannot attend meetings.

   -I say "in your area " based on what your regional director said. It sounds clear that it is not permitted in your area even though there is not a written policy

   -You then have the gall ask Me for a CFR for something you admittedly cannot substantiate. Not only does that not make any logical sense (what are you even CFR'ing?), but you are showing yourself to be very unreasonable and a touch belligerent when I was trying to be accommodating to your unverified claim of a "No Youth" policy.

Since you want to play this way, and I'm sorry this is necessary, I will still require you answer my CFR. Provide me the policy that youth cannot attend ARP meetings or retract your statement.

It would have been so much better if you had just played nice. Oh well. CFR. If you are right I will happily retract my claim that there is no policy.

 

Your outrage is a tad disingenuous. Of course it was a friendly CFR. Just like yours was. Any time someone doubts my word, I always assume it was friendly. My "regional guy" is the paid professional director of the Seattle area LDS Family Services. His word and mine were not good enough for you, so you pumped out another CFR. I went out of my way to comply with your requests, but you are put out by mine. Oh well.

I asked him to reaffirm the policy, which he did. Specifically stating, "This is the policy." Again, that was not good enough. You demand a written policy and claim it is just for my region. I asked you to back up that claim and you get your knickers twisted up. Oh well.

CFR that it is a regional policy. I have produced evidence. You produce yours.  I expect your proof to be in writing from an official guide book just like you did. Your word that you "see it" is not good enough. "Seeing it" is not proof of a regional policy. Just like my word wasn't.  

Now you can do your homework like I did, (in good faith, by the way).  I just asked him if it is a regional or a Church-wide policy. I will wait for you to get your information before I present his answer. I will happily retract my claim if you are right. 

Edited May 4, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I have read this thread with interest, as I am a Mormon who had a Pornography 'habit' of using 1 - 3 times every month or two for years, who then decided to call it addiction and attended the ARP program. So I wanted to give an opinion on this topic.

Here is a brief on my story. I am in my mid-30s and like most men my age, when the internet came to our house my parents had no idea and no filters. Although I can actually trace the roots of it much earlier, the Internet is where the access to pornography really took off for me. I continually felt bad about my usage and swore it off or repented of it repeatedly with every bishop I ever had and before my mission. Then once I got back the habit picked back up. I had dropped the habit for 6 months when I got married and I openly discussed it with my leaders during the process of preparing for my marriage and everyone had the same advice of "Great, glad that is over with. Now don't do it again."

But once married it kept happening off and on. Once early on in our marriage I tried working with my Bishop and telling my wife, but it broke my wife's heart and caused so much friction, that I decided to continue working on my own with God when a "relapse" occurred.

At that time I hated the word "addiction" because of the stigma and shame and because I had read all of the literature on addiction and I didn't fit the qualification. I only used pornography once in a while (sometimes I'd go months between using it) and it never impacted any day to day life or had negative consequences. At least that was what I thought.

The truth was though, now that I look back on it, that it did have major impacts. One major problem is that I objectified and lusted after every woman I saw. I couldn't see a woman without making a judgement call in my head of whether or not she was 'hot.' And if she was 'hot' then that is all I thought about when I saw her. Second, is that I was actively using pornography at work and wasting a lot of time for which I was being paid. Third, I was also actively deceiving and lying to my wife about it. And the saddest of all is even though I didn't think it impacted my relationship with my wife at all, it was actually devastating in ways I couldn't see. I felt like I had to have sex or else I would have a 'need' to 'self-medicate' and I had told my wife this when I first came forward about my addiction, so she felt a guilty obligation to have frequent sex. If she wasn't in the mood I would whine and pout like a child and be passive-aggressive until she was in tears and would consent to being intimate. I am ashamed to say that my desire for sex was more important than my wife's feelings and that just because she cried before, after, or during, I was always insistent that my 'needs' be met. So although I wasn't abusive physically or sexually, our sex life became just about my getting my 'needs' met and had no true emotional union.

Fast forward 10 years in our marriage, when I was on a business trip in Vegas and at 1 AM I was bored of just watching pornography in the hotel, so I decided to wander the streets of Vegas hoping that I could find some of the 'action' in real life. Thankfully, I just wandered around too nervous really go make any major mistakes, but it scared me. I realized that after 20 years of watching people act it out on the internet, I was ready to throw away my life in pursuit in real life. I had been planning how to go do it in real life in my head and was wanting to take the action. So I confessed to my wife and my bishop the WHOLE TRUTH. It was the hardest decision I ever made. And the fallout from it was the worst 9 months of my life.

My wife decided that I was an addict for me. I hated the term 'addict' but went to ARP, as well as sexaholics anonymous (even though I felt like I couldn't be a sexaholic because I had only ever had sex with my wife in my entire life). I did this because I was stuck and scared at how close I was to throwing everything away in pursuit of the fantasy. It was the best decision of my life. After attending those meetings, I changed my life, my views, and my definition of addiction. I am now 4 years clean and able to face life head on. 

There are a few key things that made the difference for me: 1) Honesty - the lying was what drove it into hiding and my thinking I could do it by myself. Having a group and a sponsor to whom I had to be honest and accountable on a daily basis (not just a bi-monthly basis like my bishop) was critical.  2) Surrender - this is a concept I learned in the group - that I could surrender the lust and bad feelings to God.  3) Feelings and Emotions Drive Addiction - I had no clue that the reason I was seeking out pornography was to escape my real life. I just thought it was a bad compulsive habit. Going to group, talking with others, and seeing a therapist helped me identify this.

A few thoughts on other topics people have discussed:

Powerlessness - A number of you are not fans of the term powerlessness. If by powerlessness you mean that you must attend a group every week for the rest of your life or you are going to relapse, I agree. However, I go by the step 1 of sexaholics anonymous which says:

1. We admitted that we were powerless over lust—that our lives had become unmanageable.

What I am powerless over is lust! It's not that I am a powerless person or unable to use free will. It's that I have trained and conditioned my brain that if I let lust into my life, that I will quickly spiral out of control. It's like an allergy. If I let myself indulge in lust, then I will very quickly keep indulging until I'm back to where I was with an unmanageable life. This is a truth I know from experience and I expect to be powerless over lust until I die. So I am okay accepting this fact and moving on, just like someone who is diabetic or allergic to bees just knows it and deals with it and moves on. It's okay to be powerless over things. In fact, it is required to let your faith in God grow.

What is Lustful - In an earlier post someone mentioned the old excuse of "Olympic Beach Volleyball isn't bad," but for me it has been and still can be an avenue for lust. If I am watching any woman's sporting event with my wife and watching it out of interest in what is happening in the game, this isn't bad. But if I am alone at my computer wanting to escape and decide to close the door to my office and pull up a beach volleyball video just to ogle the players and I don't know the teams, the score, or where the ball is, then that is straight up lust and for me would be crossing the line. It's not what I see, but how I am reacting to it. And only I know and God knows how I am doing on this.

Shame in the ARP - I don't believe that the ARP or calling it addiction causes shame in the least. In fact, going to a group of people who all shared the same issue I did and seeing that they were quality people made me feel less shame and more self-esteem.

Definition of Addiction - I don't know where the line crosses from frequent compulsive behavior to addiction. And I know that many professionals would say for me it was not an addiction and that I misdiagnosed myself. But for me calling it an addiction and dealing with it as such made all the difference. I spent 20 years calling it other names and pretending it wasn't a big deal and it never went away. So for me, it was positive to call it such and treat it as such, because I am now free of it (in that I am not doing so - I am not free of being powerless over lust)

Youth and Addiction - I disagree with using the term addiction for anyone before their mission, unless they can be clearly clinically diagnosed with it (I have met college students who fit this category). I have met high schoolers in ARP meetings and feel it is inappropriate for them to be there. I actually agree with this study that using the term addiction when discussing pornography habits of our young men and even those in college can cause damage.

12 Step Groups - I think you can definitely overcome addiction without a 12-step group - because that is the point of the gospel. I don't think you should have to attend a 12 step group for life. However, I attend a group every week and have for 4 years, just like I go to church weekly. And I will continue to both go to church and to a 12 step group weekly for the foreseeable future. 

ARP Program - There are lots of little things I'd like to see change the ARP program - just like things I'd like to see change with church on Sundays (starting with 2 hours instead of 3). Neither of them is perfect and both of them could improve. In fact, I prefer the SAL (Sex Addiction Lifeline) program over ARP and attend this one now instead. But I am still grateful the church has a program and for all those who helped me when I was attending.

Thank you for putting up with a long and semi-rambling first post.

Thanks for sharing AM.  That takes guts, even anonymously.  

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

Thank you for putting up with a long and semi-rambling first post.

Wow, it is like I am reading my life story!!!

I agree with everything that you have said and just want to say "amen".  I would give you a rep point if I could. 

Quote

I don't believe that the ARP or calling it addiction causes shame in the least. In fact, going to a group of people who all shared the same issue I did and seeing that they were quality people made me feel less shame and more self-esteem.

Yes!

[MormonVideoGame]

 

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Deleted because it is better to focus on what Bluedreams, who does this for a living, speak on the matter.

Even if porn addiction is real (many experts don't think it is), it would not be a serious problem for society because the vast majority of viewers are clearly not addicted (hours every day). Almost all men watch porn, but no evidence that a significant number of them watch it for hours every day.  Anything can be "addictive" including food, ancient scripture studies, video games, work. 

14 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

BUT that doesn't mean there isn't a serious problem

Doesn't that apply to almost anything? like food, ancient scripture studies, video games, work, MDDB? 

13 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

It's not about having enough evidence, it's about recognizing the phenomena and patterns as such. And then naming it and categorizing it in a way that is congruent with what we already acknowledge and believe.

Let me tell you something very interesting that you probably haven't heard before. In large porn theaters almost no one watches the porn, they go for other stuff, not for the porn. If porn was very powerful everyone would be paying attention to it, that is not what happens. The reality is that porn gets boring after a few minutes, that is why the average visit duration to adult websites is like 5 minutes.

There are some studies that conclude many occasional (like once a week) porn viewers think they have an addiction. So how do you detect a real porn addiction?  

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you read your quotes?  That some couples benefit does not mean it can't be harmful for others.  She goes on to say it may indeed be harmful for some relationships.

she said "It's not clear", which means there is not enough evidence. 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

  If it is not "technically" classified as an addiction, what do you technically call it when you want to stop something so bad because it is destroying your life, destroying your marriage, destroying your happiness, destroying your spirituality, shrinking your brain, and causes terrible withdrawals and mood swings

Correlation is not causation. We human beings are very complex. Did you read "Hilton and Watts offered little, if any, convincing evidence to support their perspectives"? 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3115160/

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I have read this thread with interest, as I am a Mormon who had a Pornography 'habit' of using 1 - 3 times every month or two for years, who then decided to call it addiction and attended the ARP program. So I wanted to give an opinion on this topic.

Here is a brief on my story. I am in my mid-30s and like most men my age, when the internet came to our house my parents had no idea and no filters. Although I can actually trace the roots of it much earlier, the Internet is where the access to pornography really took off for me. I continually felt bad about my usage and swore it off or repented of it repeatedly with every bishop I ever had and before my mission. Then once I got back the habit picked back up. I had dropped the habit for 6 months when I got married and I openly discussed it with my leaders during the process of preparing for my marriage and everyone had the same advice of "Great, glad that is over with. Now don't do it again."

But once married it kept happening off and on. Once early on in our marriage I tried working with my Bishop and telling my wife, but it broke my wife's heart and caused so much friction, that I decided to continue working on my own with God when a "relapse" occurred.

At that time I hated the word "addiction" because of the stigma and shame and because I had read all of the literature on addiction and I didn't fit the qualification. I only used pornography once in a while (sometimes I'd go months between using it) and it never impacted any day to day life or had negative consequences. At least that was what I thought.

The truth was though, now that I look back on it, that it did have major impacts. One major problem is that I objectified and lusted after every woman I saw. I couldn't see a woman without making a judgement call in my head of whether or not she was 'hot.' And if she was 'hot' then that is all I thought about when I saw her. Second, is that I was actively using pornography at work and wasting a lot of time for which I was being paid. Third, I was also actively deceiving and lying to my wife about it. And the saddest of all is even though I didn't think it impacted my relationship with my wife at all, it was actually devastating in ways I couldn't see. I felt like I had to have sex or else I would have a 'need' to 'self-medicate' and I had told my wife this when I first came forward about my addiction, so she felt a guilty obligation to have frequent sex. If she wasn't in the mood I would whine and pout like a child and be passive-aggressive until she was in tears and would consent to being intimate. I am ashamed to say that my desire for sex was more important than my wife's feelings and that just because she cried before, after, or during, I was always insistent that my 'needs' be met. So although I wasn't abusive physically or sexually, our sex life became just about my getting my 'needs' met and had no true emotional union.

Fast forward 10 years in our marriage, when I was on a business trip in Vegas and at 1 AM I was bored of just watching pornography in the hotel, so I decided to wander the streets of Vegas hoping that I could find some of the 'action' in real life. Thankfully, I just wandered around too nervous really go make any major mistakes, but it scared me. I realized that after 20 years of watching people act it out on the internet, I was ready to throw away my life in pursuit in real life. I had been planning how to go do it in real life in my head and was wanting to take the action. So I confessed to my wife and my bishop the WHOLE TRUTH. It was the hardest decision I ever made. And the fallout from it was the worst 9 months of my life.

My wife decided that I was an addict for me. I hated the term 'addict' but went to ARP, as well as sexaholics anonymous (even though I felt like I couldn't be a sexaholic because I had only ever had sex with my wife in my entire life). I did this because I was stuck and scared at how close I was to throwing everything away in pursuit of the fantasy. It was the best decision of my life. After attending those meetings, I changed my life, my views, and my definition of addiction. I am now 4 years clean and able to face life head on. 

There are a few key things that made the difference for me: 1) Honesty - the lying was what drove it into hiding and my thinking I could do it by myself. Having a group and a sponsor to whom I had to be honest and accountable on a daily basis (not just a bi-monthly basis like my bishop) was critical.  2) Surrender - this is a concept I learned in the group - that I could surrender the lust and bad feelings to God.  3) Feelings and Emotions Drive Addiction - I had no clue that the reason I was seeking out pornography was to escape my real life. I just thought it was a bad compulsive habit. Going to group, talking with others, and seeing a therapist helped me identify this.

A few thoughts on other topics people have discussed:

Powerlessness - A number of you are not fans of the term powerlessness. If by powerlessness you mean that you must attend a group every week for the rest of your life or you are going to relapse, I agree. However, I go by the step 1 of sexaholics anonymous which says:

1. We admitted that we were powerless over lust—that our lives had become unmanageable.

What I am powerless over is lust! It's not that I am a powerless person or unable to use free will. It's that I have trained and conditioned my brain that if I let lust into my life, that I will quickly spiral out of control. It's like an allergy. If I let myself indulge in lust, then I will very quickly keep indulging until I'm back to where I was with an unmanageable life. This is a truth I know from experience and I expect to be powerless over lust until I die. So I am okay accepting this fact and moving on, just like someone who is diabetic or allergic to bees just knows it and deals with it and moves on. It's okay to be powerless over things. In fact, it is required to let your faith in God grow.

What is Lustful - In an earlier post someone mentioned the old excuse of "Olympic Beach Volleyball isn't bad," but for me it has been and still can be an avenue for lust. If I am watching any woman's sporting event with my wife and watching it out of interest in what is happening in the game, this isn't bad. But if I am alone at my computer wanting to escape and decide to close the door to my office and pull up a beach volleyball video just to ogle the players and I don't know the teams, the score, or where the ball is, then that is straight up lust and for me would be crossing the line. It's not what I see, but how I am reacting to it. And only I know and God knows how I am doing on this.

Shame in the ARP - I don't believe that the ARP or calling it addiction causes shame in the least. In fact, going to a group of people who all shared the same issue I did and seeing that they were quality people made me feel less shame and more self-esteem.

Definition of Addiction - I don't know where the line crosses from frequent compulsive behavior to addiction. And I know that many professionals would say for me it was not an addiction and that I misdiagnosed myself. But for me calling it an addiction and dealing with it as such made all the difference. I spent 20 years calling it other names and pretending it wasn't a big deal and it never went away. So for me, it was positive to call it such and treat it as such, because I am now free of it (in that I am not doing so - I am not free of being powerless over lust)

Youth and Addiction - I disagree with using the term addiction for anyone before their mission, unless they can be clearly clinically diagnosed with it (I have met college students who fit this category). I have met high schoolers in ARP meetings and feel it is inappropriate for them to be there. I actually agree with this study that using the term addiction when discussing pornography habits of our young men and even those in college can cause damage.

12 Step Groups - I think you can definitely overcome addiction without a 12-step group - because that is the point of the gospel. I don't think you should have to attend a 12 step group for life. However, I attend a group every week and have for 4 years, just like I go to church weekly. And I will continue to both go to church and to a 12 step group weekly for the foreseeable future. 

ARP Program - There are lots of little things I'd like to see change the ARP program - just like things I'd like to see change with church on Sundays (starting with 2 hours instead of 3). Neither of them is perfect and both of them could improve. In fact, I prefer the SAL (Sex Addiction Lifeline) program over ARP and attend this one now instead. But I am still grateful the church has a program and for all those who helped me when I was attending.

Thank you for putting up with a long and semi-rambling first post.

No! The thanks are to you for sharing your experiences. Many times over. How wonderful that you have been able to deal with this in such a positive way! 

I hope anyone reading this who has similar issues is inspired and motivated to take the necessary steps to become free again.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Your outrage is a tad disingenuous. Of course it was a friendly CFR. Just like yours was. Any time someone doubts my word, I always assume it was friendly. My "regional guy" is the paid professional director of the Seattle area LDS Family Services. His word and mine were not good enough for you, so you pumped out another CFR. I went out of my way to comply with your requests, but you are put out by mine. Oh well.

I asked him to reaffirm the policy, which he did. Specifically stating, "This is the policy." Again, that was not good enough. You demand a written policy and claim it is just for my region. I asked you to back up that claim and you get your knickers twisted up. Oh well.

CFR that it is a regional policy. I have produced evidence. You produce yours.  I expect your proof to be in writing from an official guide book just like you did. Your word that you "see it" is not good enough. "Seeing it" is not proof of a regional policy. Just like my word wasn't.  

Now you can do your homework like I did, (in good faith, by the way).  I just asked him if it is a regional or a Church-wide policy. I will wait for you to get your information before I present his answer. I will happily retract my claim if you are right. 

This is silly, and I'm pretty certain no one on this board gives a rip about this minor squabble, so I'll make one comment and be done with it regardless of what you have to say later.

My position is that it is not a policy. I cannot prove a negative. I asked you for a reference on your claim that youth are not permitted to participate in LDS ARP meetings. Your response, that your regional guy told you youth aren't allowed, is not a reference. I'm pretty certain you understand what is and isn't a reference, right?

So giving me a CFR, asking me to prove that it is a regional policy makes no sense since I never claimed it was (I was merely giving you the benefit of the doubt by believing that your regional guy said it was a policy in your area). I don't demand that you provide a policy that shows it is only for your region. I'm asking you to provide evidence of a church-wide policy as you seem to be claiming by issuing the silly CFR. You're the one making the claim that what your regional LDSFS guy says is policy for the church. I reject that your guy has that authority, and since it is in direct conflict with what my "professional director of LDSFS" in my region told me, and what I see in my group meetings, I think you are incorrectly stating the policy for LDS ARP meetings. I've got no problem if your region does things differently than mine. What bugs me is when you claim your way is THE way when you can't prove it is. Don't misstate policy and then fail to back it up. If you can't back up the CFR, simply remove your claim that youth cannot participate in ARP. Not being able to participate in your area is not the same thing as saying they can't participate in LDS ARP (because that implies they can't participate anywhere). Just be accurate. That's all I'm asking. It's not hard.

Nice job on the smiley faces. If you are making a joke, it can help. You're learning