BYU Study on Pornography: "It’s not porn use, but rather the belief in porn addiction and the conflict with religion, which predict porn-related problems."

[Rain]

4 hours ago, rongo said:

My issue with the ARP approach (in practice, not in theory or in the materials. The materials in theory and in writing preach full recovery and healing through the atonement) is that in practice, the message is "you will always be an addict and will always need the support of mentors or the group." And any attempt by individuals or priesthood leaders to work towards not needing the training wheels at some point are met with outrage (naive, delusional, ignorant, etc.). 

I firmly believe that it is indeed possible, through the atonement and through our own will and agency, to be free of the scourge of sexual sin. It is not easy, and won't happen overnight, but I believe that it can happen --- and should be the goal.

I remember reading this article many years ago in the DN, where the two camps argue over this. The counselor/therapists are apoplectic at the knuckle-dragging, delusional approach that people can actually quit without needing training wheels for life. 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/520033358/Just-quit-already-addiction-lecturer-says.html

 

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is something I struggle with as well because many people understand "admitting powerlessness" to be a kind of, throw your hands up in the air and have faith that God will heal you. It can be miscommunicated in a way that the person feels a kind of unalterable destiny of their addiction that they cannot change, and therefore don't work towards.

I started working on the booklet on my own for food. These are two of the struggles I have had with it. 

I know that the idea is that we are powerless on our own. That we need Christ. I am very connected to the idea of the enabling power of Christ working together with me, but however I might try I just cannot make myself believe that I have no power of my own. It may have come from God, but with agency it is now mine. So I don't believe that I am powerless,  but I do believe that with the atonement his power and mine work interdependently to some power even greater. 

Which means at some point I will get past being emotionally tied/addicted to food. For me, if I can't see an end there is no point for me to even try in this life. 

I get these things work for some people.  I agree that the meetings are probrably spiritual - I haven't been,  but have listened to the church recordings and felt they were spiritual. I plan on finishing the book because I find much of worth there. 

I just think it isn't right for everyone. Perhaps this is what the study is really showing. What works for some is not going to work for others.

[pogi]

36 minutes ago, Rain said:

Just gotta say it as a diabetic for 39 years - diabetes is not caused by eating sugar.

True, but as a diabetic nurse for the first part of my career, I gotta say that a high sugar diet can certainly increase risk significantly🙂

The epidemic wave of juvenile diabetes is not because of a low sugar diet...that is for sure.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

54 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you had to deal with addiction or spoken with someone in recovery? I used to think this way, but through sad experience I have come to know how wrong I was. The first thing an addict loses is fee will.

I have. I've had two friends end their lives because of adiction. Anyway, I guess I should clarify what I mean when I say that at a certain point the child needs to grow up. My two friends were addicted to drugs and my belief was that the addiction was a result of some other emotional problems they had. My one friend was blantantly rejected by both of his parents and raised by his grandmother. He stewed over this for years and tried to reach out to his parents later in life to no real success. My other friend was brilliant but a little lazy in his work habits. His parents were really strict and went a little overboard when he strayed a little in high school. He never was really accepted by his parents as a result. He got sent home from his mission and I'm sure his parents were embarrassed by it from their reaction. However he went back and finished. Both were addicts due to some other reason than drugs. Drugs were just a way to deal with pain. Both weren't powerless from drugs but had other issues. Drugs were a symptom of bigger issues. What they needed was a way to deal with the underlying issues as adults and not be told they were powerless children to drug addiction forever in need of a nanny.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you had to deal with addiction or spoken with someone in recovery? I used to think this way, but through sad experience I have come to know how wrong I was. The first thing an addict loses is fee will.

I understand what you are going through with your children and maybe the AA type program would be great for them. In the case of my friends, I think it wouldn't have worked because it didn't. They both tried it and it failed.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

True, but as a diabetic nurse for the first part of my career, I gotta say that a high sugar diet can certainly increase risk significantly🙂

The epidemic wave of juvenile diabetes is not because of a low sugar diet...that is for sure.

What was once commonly called "juvenile diabetes" had no increased chances with a high sugar diet.  It is caused when your immune system attacks cells in your pancreas.  Most people who were once classified as juvenile diabetics are now classified as Type 1 diabetics.

The "wave" of diabetics who are juveniles now and who are often classified as type 2 diabetics have the risk factors of weight, fat placement, inactivity, family history, race, age, prediabetes, gestational diabetes (though I am not sure there are many juveniles with this one). and polycystic ovarian syndrome. (Mayo clinic.) A high sugar diet may be a risk factor/cause (?) for obesity which is then a risk factor for diabetes, but in and of itself it is not a risk factor for diabetes - at least that I have read about. There is always new info that comes out.

----- the woman who often heard as a child type 1 diabetic, "Don't eat that sugar! You'll get diabetes like Rain"  and always feels the need to correct it.  Sorry.  Now I will get back on topic. I just couldn't let this go.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Rain

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Have you had to deal with addiction or spoken with someone in recovery? I used to think this way, but through sad experience I have come to know how wrong I was. The first thing an addict loses is fee will.

While not an addiction, my disorder when flaring up removes control even though at this point there is no measurable way to indicate what is going on (no tests to measure the sensations that drive us to move for relief).  Before it was controlled most of the time with medication, I was literally throwing myself out of bed when it would ramp up. The reaction becomes instinctual.  My mother would tell me I only needed to hold myself tightly in nonmovement, fight the instinct and my body would follow my mind and I would be able to sleep.  No matter how many times I assured her that didn't work, she would calmly assure me it was just a matter of showing the body who is boss. She could assure me she had done it many times.

In physical matters, the body get what it wants or it makes one suffer.  What is different is the level of need and the immediate insistence for individuals, imo.  Some bodies are willing to be patient and accept substitutes.  Others' need is much stronger, so insistent it drives out every other thought so there is no way to engage willpower.  The brain just doesn't allow that.  Think of the difference between having to sneeze because of a tickle of dust and a full fledged allergy attack.  We can accept the impossibility of controlling an allergic reaction because it is easy to imagine these days the body responding to allergens even if we have never personally suffered such an attack.  We may not understand the intensity of the need, but we accept it and don't go looking for other explanations such as lack of personal moral control.  It is harder to do so with addictions because the mechanisms and triggers involved are much more complicated and less easily understood.  We can't understand that what is for us an annoying, distracting jingle that keeps repeating in our brain until we find something else to replace it is a thrumming, felt to the bone cacophony of noise that blasts every other sensation out of existence...

Or so I extrapolate from my own movement disorder symptoms.  I don't know how close I come, but it helps get me to understanding why and when it is becomes important to understand one is powerless (because it really goes against the mantras I was taught in my youth and many people keep sharing so I have to work at understanding).  Some must accept they are powerless otherwise it becomes pretty close to impossible to make the kinds of choices needed to make to avoid getting swallowed by the destructive drive.  Some of my extended family, many even now the disorder is known, think I am a hypochondriac for refusing to get in a car unless absolutely necessary. I feel immensely guilty for putting layers of protection between myself and the triggers because I know there are times when the disorder stays asleep.  I had a dear friend telling me I should go for my Dream rather than accepting it wasn't happening even after I assured her it wasn't possible and she kept pushing until I had to say "please, just stop, this isn't good".  Can you imagine the reactions of people when an addict tells them they are not going to be going to the funeral of a parent because they know there will be triggers there?  Will people be understanding or think they are a selfish brat who always puts themselves first, clueless that whatever good might occur by attending is swallowed up by the potential harm of triggering the addiction need?

You might be wise to encourage someone with a sore muscle to 'walk it off',  but it isn't wisdom to say the same to someone with a compound fracture or some long term permanent condition that requires special aids for moving to avoid damage.

-----

The fact that there are some who see themselves as addicts that are helped by other methods than a paradigm of powerlessness may be indicative of the confusion over exactly what addiction is.  Perhaps there are different forms of addiction, perhaps there is only one real form of addiction, but other disorders that come close to it.  That there may be other versions does not negate the reality that there are addictions where it is necessary to accept powerlessness, no matter how distasteful that may be.

People need to find what works for them.  I am not going to suggest that there aren't people that can't be helped by telling themselves they have the power.  I am saying insisting that everyone is ultimately in control and therefore a paradigm of powerlessness isn't allowing one to take responsibility or grow up or isn't realistic as they may someday be cured is not realistic in itself and is ignoring the physical side of addiction.  Would you gripe about a terminal cancer patient who accepted he was dying because he was powerless to resist the onslaught of the cancer cells and chose to go home to live with his family in peace until his death or placed his fate in the hands of God or the Universe rather than continue to insist that he was going to beat the cancer and be cured?

Accepting powerlessness in the face of inevitable causes can allow someone to take control of their life in ways they could not if they refused to allow themselves to see themselves that way.  There are other forms of hope that can blossom when one has accepted the way things are.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Calm

[bsjkki]

19 minutes ago, Rain said:

-- the woman who often heard as a child type 1 diabetic, "Don't eat that sugar! You'll get diabetes like Rain"  and always feels the need to correct it.  Sorry.  Now I will get back on topic. I just couldn't let this go.

The struggle is real. ☹️️ I can't ever let it go either. Too much pain... type 1 kids get blamed and judged for being sick...and their moms too. 

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I have. I've had two friends end their lives because of adiction. Anyway, I guess I should clarify what I mean when I say that at a certain point the child needs to grow up. My two friends were addicted to drugs and my belief was that the addiction was a result of some other emotional problems they had. My one friend was blantantly rejected by both of his parents and raised by his grandmother. He stewed over this for years and tried to reach out to his parents later in life to no real success. My other friend was brilliant but a little lazy in his work habits. His parents were really strict and went a little overboard when he strayed a little in high school. He never was really accepted by his parents as a result. He got sent home from his mission and I'm sure his parents were embarrassed by it from their reaction. However he went back and finished. Both were addicts due to some other reason than drugs. Drugs were just a way to deal with pain. Both weren't powerless from drugs but had other issues. Drugs were a symptom of bigger issues. What they needed was a way to deal with the underlying issues as adults and not be told they were powerless children to drug addiction forever in need of a nanny.

It might have been helpful for them to come to accept they were powerless in regards to their parents' reactions if shame at failing their parents still haunted them.  Not saying this is so, but I know many have been helped by accepting this.

Powerlessness is not abdicating responsibility when used in addiction recovery imo, it is recognizing that one can't change somethings and that one has to find new ways.

Of course, addicts using the paradigm successfully probably adapt it to mean what it needs to mean to work for them.  One size rarely fits all except in the most general of terms.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Calm

[Tsuzuki]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So if these friends are working in an industry that hurts others, its ok because the feel rewarded (somehow) and it feeds their family? 

I mean call me naïve, I guess.  But I don't see any good in it. 

I can't speak for the entire industry, but the companies that my friends work for treat their workers with respect, and everyone is there because they want to be.

I'm not suggesting that Mormons should work in it, but as with the pork industry, the porn industry isn't inherently bad just because it's not "kosher".

Edited May 3, 2017 by Tsuzuki

[Tsuzuki]

*doublepost*

Edited May 3, 2017 by Tsuzuki

[Tsuzuki]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is truly disappointing, Tzuzuki. Nothing good comes from pornography production or consumption.

My Bishop disagrees. He recently went on a tour with his girlfriend of the company one of my friends works at in San Francisco.

Do not promote pornography on this forum. Poster removed.

[Tsuzuki]

3 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

and it's called secular freedom. 

For some reason I am unable to give you rep points. I would have given you a whole bunch by now if I could.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

What was once commonly called "juvenile diabetes" had no increased chances with a high sugar diet.  It is caused when your immune system attacks cells in your pancreas.  Most people who were once classified as juvenile diabetics are now classified as Type 1 diabetics.

The "wave" of diabetics who are juveniles now and who are often classified as type 2 diabetics have the risk factors of weight, fat placement, inactivity, family history, race, age, prediabetes, gestational diabetes (though I am not sure there are many juveniles with this one). and polycystic ovarian syndrome. (Mayo clinic.) A high sugar diet may be a risk factor/cause (?) for obesity which is then a risk factor for diabetes, but in and of itself it is not a risk factor for diabetes - at least that I have read about. There is always new info that comes out.

----- the woman who often heard as a child type 1 diabetic, "Don't eat that sugar! You'll get diabetes like Rain"  and always feels the need to correct it.  Sorry.  Now I will get back on topic. I just couldn't let this go.

What was once called "adult onset diabetes" (type II), was limited to, well, adults.  It was literally unheard of in children not long ago...not so much anymore.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11960510

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/525086

What was once called juvenile or childhood diabetes was limited to type 1...not much any more. 

What is one of several major causes of obesity in kids today?  Sugary and simple carb foods with soda friggin pop.  Obesity has been shown to be a major risk factor for type II diabetes.  So, not only does sugar increase risk for obesity (which is a risk factor), but we are learning that it is also a risk factor independent of obesity.  So it is like a double whammy!  Not all calories are created equal.

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2013/02/quantity-of-sugar-in-food-supply-linked-to-diabetes-rates-researcher-says.html

My father-in-law was diagnosed with diabetes a few years ago.  I put him on a low sugar, high fiber diet and started an exercise regimen with him.  He is now off of Metformin and has a normal healthy A1C.  Basically cured, so yes, I stand by my claims that sugar is a risk factor. 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

46 minutes ago, Calm said:

It might have been helpful for them to come to accept they were powerless in regards to their parents' reactions if shame at failing their parents still haunted them.  Not saying this is so, but I know many have been helped by accepting this.

Powerlessness is not abdicating responsibility when used in addiction recovery imo, it is recognizing that one can't change somethings and that one has to find new ways.

Of course, addicts using the paradigm successfully probably adapt it to mean what it needs to mean to work for them.  One size rarely fits all except in the most general of terms.

I don't know, really, because I ultimately we can't see what's inside someone's head.  I ache though at their loss.  My one friend who was abandoned by his parents was my best friend all throughout high school and I still struggle with his death.  He left a daughter who now has to deal with this and shouldn't have to.  The other friend was my buddy during my first year of law school and helped me cope.  He had many issues and told me directly that AA didn't work.  My high school friend said the same thing.  I realize that some people need the constant reminder that they are powerless.  Even so, I think the heart of the issue was that my friends had parent/child issues and probably weren't powerless to drugs.  They had a larger problem that the AA program could not reach.

[Pete Ahlstrom]

Just now, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't know, really, because I ultimately we can't see what's inside someone's head.  I ache though at their loss.  My one friend who was abandoned by his parents was my best friend all throughout high school and I still struggle with his death.  He left a daughter who now has to deal with this and shouldn't have to.  The other friend was my buddy during my first year of law school and helped me cope.  He had many issues and told me directly that AA didn't work.  My high school friend said the same thing.  I realize that some people need the constant reminder that they are powerless.  Even so, I think the heart of the issue was that my friends had parent/child issues and probably weren't powerless to drugs.  They had a larger problem that the AA program could not reach.

I don't have an edit function so take out the "I" after the first "because."

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, Tsuzuki said:

I can't speak for the entire industry, but the companies that my friends work for treat their workers with respect...

By "respect", do you mean treating them as objects on the movie screen?  Sure, they may be treated like movie stars off camera, but is the end product hurting or helping the cause of women and how they are perceived by men?

Edited May 3, 2017 by pogi

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't know, really, because I ultimately we can't see what's inside someone's head.  I ache though at their loss.  My one friend who was abandoned by his parents was my best friend all throughout high school and I still struggle with his death.  He left a daughter who now has to deal with this and shouldn't have to.  The other friend was my buddy during my first year of law school and helped me cope.  He had many issues and told me directly that AA didn't work.  My high school friend said the same thing.  I realize that some people need the constant reminder that they are powerless.  Even so, I think the heart of the issue was that my friends had parent/child issues and probably weren't powerless to drugs.  They had a larger problem that the AA program could not reach.

My only problem with your post was the absolute nature of rejection of "powerlessness" with the child has to grow up sometime.

If you do accept that it is growing up and accepting responsibility for some, though it may not be for others, I have no argument with you.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I don't have an edit function so take out the "I" after the first "because."

You will when you hit 25 posts if it still bugs you.

[MormonVideoGame]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

By "respect", do you mean treating them as objects on the movie screen? 

CFR that porn causes (or makes) men to treat women like objects. 

Most young women in the US like to wear short skirts or tight pants, and men like that. Is that objectifying? 

Watching the Olympics beach volleyball. Is that objectifying? Or when women see shirtless men on a magazine. Objectifying? 

In case you missed it 

Quote

There is no "porn addiction" in the medical field, being addicted to porn is like being addicted to facebook, apologetics, MDDB, video games, ancient scripture studies, text messages. Dr. Marty Klein (Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Sex Therapist for over thirty year) wrote, "rare instances of people watching three hours of porn every night (a clearly self-destructive behavior that’s often more about the internet than about porn)" 

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/skeptical-of-the-porn-skeptics/

 

1 hour ago, Tsuzuki said:

For some reason I am unable to give you rep points. I would have given you a whole bunch by now if I could.

Thanks 

Edited May 3, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Pete Ahlstrom]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

My only problem with your post was the absolute nature of rejection of "powerlessness" with the child has to grow up sometime.

If you do accept that it is growing up and accepting responsibility for some, though it may not be for others, I have no argument with you.

I think in the end, whatever gets someone off of drugs and into a healthy area should be the goal.  However, I still think that a person must ultimately rise above and take control of their own lives at some point.  Sure we need help, everyone does.  Addiction is a predator for sure.  But after getting off of drugs and into a healthy life and in control of that life, is the person still powerless?  Didn't that person make a choice to act and stay away from the toxic lifestyle?  Don't they continually do so?  Does free agency leave that person even when they are free from the addiction, seemingly, like the person who is 20 years sober?  Does triumph over the problem ever happen?  I have a hard time believing that ultimate self-control is not possible for these people and that is my objection to AA.  Sure there are some who seemingly can't overcome the addiction, but is it because of another issue like Pogi had? He was using porn as a way to medicate his relationship anxiety.  I don't think he was broken because of porn and once he remedied the relationship anxiety, he was on the way to healing (from what I understood from his posts).

Nevertheless, I realize that for some, the addiction is seemingly all powerful in this life and maybe triumph won't come until the next life.    

[MormonVideoGame]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

 

Smoking tobacco is morally acceptable in the US, it is simply seen as a bad unhealthy habit, but no one judges a smoker, and yet smoking rates are going down in the US. 

According to Gallup, only 33% of Americans think gambling is not "morally acceptable". 66% of Americans think pornography is not "morally acceptable". 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/192404/birth-control-divorce-top-list-morally-acceptable-issues.aspx

Edited May 3, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Glenn101]

3 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Nevertheless, I realize that for some, the addiction is seemingly all powerful in this life and maybe triumph won't come until the next life.    

That is the crux of the matter. Some just do not seem able to "kick the habit," whatever the habit may be. My father was able to stop smoking after several abortive attempts and remained off the tobacco weed the rest of his life. I have known some who took up smoking and were able to drop it easily. Yet I have seen others who could not stop, even though they knew it was killing them. I knew one lady who carried an oxygen bottle around with her because of cigarette smoking induced or maybe exacerbated lung problems, yet she would turn off the oxygen and light up a cigarette several times a day.

I just know it is not my place to judge them but to try to find ways to help if I can.

[Rain]

Just now, MormonVideoGame said:

Smoking tobacco is morally acceptable in the US as a whole, it is simply seen as a bad unhealthy habit, but no one judges a smoker, and yet smoking rates are doing down in the US. 

According to Gallup, only 33% of Americans think gambling is not "morally acceptable". 66% of Americans think pornography is not "morally acceptable". 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/192404/birth-control-divorce-top-list-morally-acceptable-issues.aspx

Not to a lot of people on my other non religious based board, including many posters who affiliate with no religion.  A lot of people judge smokers.  I've been on that board for more than 16 years and the opinions only get more sharp each year.  The last time the subject came up on a thread I saw I was really surprised at how judgmental many of these posters were.  

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

I think a lot of people misunderstand where the "12-Step" methodology came from, and what it actually does.  This article is a good history of the subject:

https://www.wired.com/2010/06/ff_alcoholics_anonymous/

The truth is, while 12-steps work for a lot of people, they don't work for a lot of people as well.  The ideal is to have many different ways to treat "addiction", and find the treatment that works best for certain individuals.

 

LDS Family Services advocates for all reputable forms of treatment. The 12-principles program is just one of many tools, but very valuable because it has the potential for daily support.

The real truth is that addiction of any kind is very difficult to overcome. 

[Calm]

I think you may using "powerlessness" in a way not intended, since I don't have direct experience I will let Pogi comment in detail on that save to say that I understand it in the way I understand I am powerless in regards to the degenerative nature of my disorder.  It is genetic and I can see how it progressed in my grandfather and father.  I also know from the research and personal experience that one can do everything known to help perfectly and still end up in a nightmare.  There may be some reason and rhyme to the patterns (avoid chocolate, cars, and summer), but the one consistent thing about it is its inconsistency.  So I accept that it will get worse with time, that it flares up randomly because it misses me  and I am not a failure when this  happens.  Even bigger these days I am not concerning myself with coming up with a cure, that is in God's hands (mostly) and the doctors' hands.  What I can do is create a life that is prepared to use whatever God or the doctors find for me.  Accepting powerlessness in one area has given me a sense of power in another way and removes the need to constantly judge myself on failure and success based on how controlled my disorder is.

I am not sure if this is how ARP uses it, I need to study it in more depth, what I have learned over the years seems to be in line with my version to me.