BYU Study on Pornography: "It’s not porn use, but rather the belief in porn addiction and the conflict with religion, which predict porn-related problems."

[Pete Ahlstrom]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

My issue with the ARP approach (in practice, not in theory or in the materials. The materials in theory and in writing preach full recovery and healing through the atonement) is that in practice, the message is "you will always be an addict and will always need the support of mentors or the group." And any attempt by individuals or priesthood leaders to work towards not needing the training wheels at some point are met with outrage (naive, delusional, ignorant, etc.). 

I firmly believe that it is indeed possible, through the atonement and through our own will and agency, to be free of the scourge of sexual sin. It is not easy, and won't happen overnight, but I believe that it can happen --- and should be the goal.

I remember reading this article many years ago in the DN, where the two camps argue over this. The counselor/therapists are apoplectic at the knuckle-dragging, delusional approach that people can actually quit without needing training wheels for life. 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/520033358/Just-quit-already-addiction-lecturer-says.html

Having to admit powerlessness in the face of these problems is my biggest gripe with these programs. In the long run and at a certain point, the child needs to grow up and face these challenges on their own as an adult. These AA based programs don't allow this to fully occur. There never is a graduation day.

[cinepro]

3 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Having to admit powerlessness in the face of these problems is my biggest gripe with these programs. In the long run and at a certain point, the child needs to grow up and face these challenges on their own as an adult. These AA based programs don't allow this to fully occur. There never is a graduation day.

I think a lot of people misunderstand where the "12-Step" methodology came from, and what it actually does.  This article is a good history of the subject:

https://www.wired.com/2010/06/ff_alcoholics_anonymous/

The truth is, while 12-steps work for a lot of people, they don't work for a lot of people as well.  The ideal is to have many different ways to treat "addiction", and find the treatment that works best for certain individuals.

Quote

AA is still far from ideal. The sad fact remains that the program’s failures vastly outnumber its success stories. According to Tonigan, upwards of 70 percent of people who pass through AA will never make it to their one-year anniversary, and relapse is common even among regular attendees. This raises an important question: Are there ways to improve Wilson’s aging system?

AA is obviously not about to overhaul its 75-year-old formula. But there are a few alterations that would almost certainly make the program work for more people, starting with better quality control. Since no central body regulates the day-to-day operations of local groups, some meetings are dominated by ornery old-timers who delight in belittling newcomers. Others are prowled by men looking to introduce nubile newcomers to the “13th step”—AA slang for sexual exploitation. Finding a way to impose some basic oversight of such bad behavior would likely reduce the dropout rate.

Some AA groups would also do well to shed their resistance to medication. There is nothing in the Big Book that forbids the use of prescription drugs, but there are plenty of meetings where such pharmaceutical aids are frowned upon. Perhaps this sentiment made sense back in AA’s formative years, when a variety of snake oils were touted as alcoholism cures. But today there are several medications that have been proven to decrease the odds of relapse. One such drug, acamprosate, restores a healthy balance between glutamate and GABA, two of the neurotransmitters that get out of whack in the brains of alcoholics. Naltrexone, commonly used to treat heroin addiction, appears effective at preventing relapse by alcoholics who possess a certain genetic variant related to an important mu-opioid receptor. Both can be valuable aids in the recovery process.

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by cinepro

[CA Steve]

7 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I think this is where my understanding of the issue gets cloudy.

But I can understand it to a certain point.  Early in my marriage, I really enjoyed playing the video game "Starcraft".  There was a period of time where I played it too much.  I stayed up too late, and had a hard time getting up for work.  I didn't lose my job, but I would take a nap at lunch.  There were times I should have been spending time with my wife and kid(s), but I played video games instead.

My wife complained a little, and eventually I just quit.  Almost cold turkey.  Once or twice a year, I would go to a family gathering where my brothers, nephews, and other family members would all bring laptops and we'd have 8 people playing.  I'd play for the weekend, and then stop once I got home.  Eventually my son was old enough to play, and I taught him.  We'd play together, but not more than we might play any regular game.  "Starcraft 2" came out and I bought it and played it for a few weeks, and then occasionally with my son after that.  But I never stayed up late or was late to a meal.  I haven't played it for months (probably more than a year at this point).  But I'm going to a family reunion in July and already got the email saying "Bring your laptop and Starcraft 2!"

So, was I "addicted"?  I don't know.  Maybe by some definitions I was.  Either way, thank goodness I was able to stop.

Now, take that story and imagine that instead of Starcraft, I was looking at pictures of naked women.  Suppose my wife knew, and while she wasn't thrilled, she wouldn't leave me for it.  Is that a worse addiction than video games?

That's what I don't understand.  How are people losing their families, jobs and children because they look at pornography (the study addresses why they are losing their self-respect and faith)?  I've owned a business for 15 years and had hundreds and hundreds of employees pass through, and I've never fired anyone for "pornography addiction".  I did fire someone because they sent a link to a "funny" pornographic video to another employee and accidentally copied me on it, but I think he just thought it was a funny video; I don't think he was addicted (I was looking to lose a few employees at the time and he just gave me an easy excuse).

 

 

 

 

My mother has a similar addiction to genealogy. 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

My issue with the ARP approach (in practice, not in theory or in the materials. The materials in theory and in writing preach full recovery and healing through the atonement) is that in practice, the message is "you will always be an addict and will always need the support of mentors or the group." And any attempt by individuals or priesthood leaders to work towards not needing the training wheels at some point are met with outrage (naive, delusional, ignorant, etc.). 

I firmly believe that it is indeed possible, through the atonement and through our own will and agency, to be free of the scourge of sexual sin. It is not easy, and won't happen overnight, but I believe that it can happen --- and should be the goal.

I remember reading this article many years ago in the DN, where the two camps argue over this. The counselor/therapists are apoplectic at the knuckle-dragging, delusional approach that people can actually quit without needing training wheels for life. 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/520033358/Just-quit-already-addiction-lecturer-says.html

I agree that the ARP program is not a helpful approach for p0rn usage, especially for young people. We sometimes have teens that are assigned by their bishops to attend to overcome their "p0rn addiction" of watching it 2-3 times per month. It pathologizes the problem, induces long lasting shame, and makes the individual feel somewhat helpless.

I have not argued that p0rn is good, only that calling the average user an addict is bad. (there will always be exceptions but it seems like leaders jump very quickly to the "addict" label.)

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

My mother has a similar addiction to genealogy. 

Our stake just did a major youth indexing push to get 100,000 names indexed in the month of April. The winners were all home-schooled (big shocker), except for a boy here at the high school who simply indexed on his laptop all day, every day. He is failing all of his classes, but he got a boatload of names indexed during school (and probably at home as well). 

Many things that are "good" (e.g., exercise, genealogy, etc.) can be addictive for compulsive people. 

In this boy's case, I think he just wanted the top spot (daily rankings were posted online). 

[HappyJackWagon]

10 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Having to admit powerlessness in the face of these problems is my biggest gripe with these programs. In the long run and at a certain point, the child needs to grow up and face these challenges on their own as an adult. These AA based programs don't allow this to fully occur. There never is a graduation day.

This is something I struggle with as well because many people understand "admitting powerlessness" to be a kind of, throw your hands up in the air and have faith that God will heal you. It can be miscommunicated in a way that the person feels a kind of unalterable destiny of their addiction that they cannot change, and therefore don't work towards.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree that the ARP program is not a helpful approach for p0rn usage, especially for young people. We sometimes have teens that are assigned by their bishops to attend to overcome their "p0rn addiction" of watching it 2-3 times per month. It pathologizes the problem, induces long lasting shame, and makes the individual feel somewhat helpless.

I have not argued that p0rn is good, only that calling the average user an addict is bad. (there will always be exceptions but it seems like leaders jump very quickly to the "addict" label.)

I think we're on the same page as far as throwing around the addiction label. 

2-3 times a month is a very workable amount. I'm reminded about Elder Acosta's counsel to the Phoenix area about distinguishing between incidents and a pattern. If the level of incidents is as low as 2-3 times a month, not only is one not an addict, but the prospects for completely overcoming it in fairly short-term are pretty good. 

Sometimes, men will confess and it happens 2-3 times in a year. In that case, you sincerely ask God to forgive you, and stop doing it. No ARP is needed, and one shouldn't beat oneself up over it. 

I send people to ARP if I think it will help them, but it isn't one size fits all. 

[MormonVideoGame]

16 hours ago, juliann said:

I said porn IS violence against women.  The reality is that porn users are supporting criminal acts. 

You assume too much. CFR that porn users are supporting criminal acts. 

Nearly all men watch porn, are nearly all men criminals? 

There is also g@y porn for men, is g@y porn violence against men? 

16 hours ago, Calm said:

It is highly unfortunate that the very thing that makes finding accurate data extremely important---the illegality of human trafficking in the porn industry---is the very thing that makes finding that data difficult.

Please show me evidence of human trafficking in legal pornographic film studios. In adult news video stores you won't find slaves or underage actors. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

8 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If you would like to do a google search I'm sure you'll find some good information about the exploitation of sx workers in the p0rn industry.

Exploitation happens everywhere, especially in factories that have a lot of low-wage workers. What is your point? 

10 hours ago, Tsuzuki said:

In my social circles, half of the porn consumers are women, and some of them are producers. They are not exploiting themselves. Some of my friends of both sexes make it as a hobby.

and it's called secular freedom. 

[MormonVideoGame]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So if these friends are working in an industry that hurts others, its ok because the feel rewarded (somehow) and it feeds their family? 

that is everywhere, not just the p0rn industry. 

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

that is everywhere, not just the p0rn industry. 

And because it is everywhere, we should accept it? Great argument

 

[MormonVideoGame]

9 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And because it is everywhere, we should accept it? Great argument

And what makes you think I accept it? My point is that porn itself is not the problem. 

Please answers my question, what is your point? 

Edited May 2, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

And what makes you think I accept it? My point is that porn itself is not the problem. 

Please answers my question, what is your point? 

What is my point about what? You're not making sense.

I answered your questions pages ago. If you have a new question, out of the kindness of my heart and not because you demand it, I will do my best to answer.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree that the ARP program is not a helpful approach for p0rn usage, especially for young people. We sometimes have teens that are assigned by their bishops to attend to overcome their "p0rn addiction" of watching it 2-3 times per month. It pathologizes the problem, induces long lasting shame, and makes the individual feel somewhat helpless.

I have not argued that p0rn is good, only that calling the average user an addict is bad. (there will always be exceptions but it seems like leaders jump very quickly to the "addict" label.)

 

55 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is something I struggle with as well because many people understand "admitting powerlessness" to be a kind of, throw your hands up in the air and have faith that God will heal you. It can be miscommunicated in a way that the person feels a kind of unalterable destiny of their addiction that they cannot change, and therefore don't work towards.

It sounds like there is some misunderstanding/misinformation going around about ARP.  First, it can be a very helpful program.  I am proof of that.  I attend very little anymore, but man what a great place to feel the spirit, get support and bust the shame cycle.  

Second, admitting "powerlessness" is simply to say that we are powerless "in and of ourselves" to overcome the addiction.  In other words, we need support, acountability, and grace of God.  The scriptures are clear that man, in general, is powerless to do any good thing in and of themselves without the grace of God.  Admitting powerlessness in and of ourselves does not remove acountability or responsibility on our part to do the work of recovery.  One thing that all addicts need is accountability.  ARP provides that in a nonjudgmental way.  It also provides incredibly powerful steps to utilize the atonement in healing.  

Third, 2-3 times a month can be an addictive pattern.  That is the category I fell under most of the time. It is not how often you use P, it is the inability to stop due to core issues.  You would think that it is not serious that infrequently, but I have seen marriages tragically end because of it.  It is the most nasty beast that I have ever battled in my entire existence, for many many years!

 Neuronal pathways are formed and your brain becomes dependent on its predictable fix.  It is not so simple to alter your brain anatomy and physiology after years of chronic use.  Even just a few times a month can be seemingly impossible to quit for some.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I think this is where my understanding of the issue gets cloudy.

But I can understand it to a certain point.  Early in my marriage, I really enjoyed playing the video game "Starcraft".  There was a period of time where I played it too much.  I stayed up too late, and had a hard time getting up for work.  I didn't lose my job, but I would take a nap at lunch.  There were times I should have been spending time with my wife and kid(s), but I played video games instead.

My wife complained a little, and eventually I just quit.  Almost cold turkey.  Once or twice a year, I would go to a family gathering where my brothers, nephews, and other family members would all bring laptops and we'd have 8 people playing.  I'd play for the weekend, and then stop once I got home.  Eventually my son was old enough to play, and I taught him.  We'd play together, but not more than we might play any regular game.  "Starcraft 2" came out and I bought it and played it for a few weeks, and then occasionally with my son after that.  But I never stayed up late or was late to a meal.  I haven't played it for months (probably more than a year at this point).  But I'm going to a family reunion in July and already got the email saying "Bring your laptop and Starcraft 2!"

So, was I "addicted"?  I don't know.  Maybe by some definitions I was.  Either way, thank goodness I was able to stop.

Now, take that story and imagine that instead of Starcraft, I was looking at pictures of naked women.  Suppose my wife knew, and while she wasn't thrilled, she wouldn't leave me for it.  Is that a worse addiction than video games?

That's what I don't understand.  How are people losing their families, jobs and children because they look at pornography (the study addresses why they are losing their self-respect and faith)?  I've owned a business for 15 years and had hundreds and hundreds of employees pass through, and I've never fired anyone for "pornography addiction".  I did fire someone because they sent a link to a "funny" pornographic video to another employee and accidentally copied me on it, but I think he just thought it was a funny video; I don't think he was addicted (I was looking to lose a few employees at the time and he just gave me an easy excuse).

 

 

 

 

With Starcraft, did you stop going to work, steal relatives' credit cards and quickly run up thousands of dollars of debt on them, stop normal eating and sleeping patterns? That's what some video gamers do.

Perhaps it would be good to talk with porn users and their families. You may ask a recovery group in your area if they would mind you visiting. Some are open.

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/?lang=eng

Edited May 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, california boy said:

Wow I had no idea so many Mormons were so addicted to porn that they were loosing their family, jobs, children, self-respect and  faith.  No wonder there have been so many talks about this subject.  It sounds like it has reached epic proportions in the Mormon church.  I personally know no person who has even come close to this kind of porn addictions. Is this kind of addiction a Utah thing?  I have heard several references to Utah being among the top states in the country to view porn.

Well, you are very good at creating hyperbolic straw men. By your own admission you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Google depression and Mormonism. 

There is a lot of propaganda out-there, you need to give me serious studies or some stats, fbi or something.

Please don't get this thread shut down.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Gray said:

Maybe, but actual clinical addition to pron is rare. We seem to categorize just about any use as some kind of addiction in Mormon culture. 

I have a tough time staying away from sweets. If I started calling it addiction and started heaping shame on myself about it, I might turn to a secret candy stash to deal with the emotional turmoil. It might even become an actual honest to goodness addiction, instead of a bad habit. 

I assume you have never been to an addiction recovery or family support group meeting?

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

No, it is not calling it an addiction that is the problem, it is the stigma and misunderstanding of the nature of P addiction that is the problem.  An improper understanding of P addiction can exacerbate the shame leading to exacerbated relationship anxiety. That is why I am so vocal about my recovery in P addiction, I want to destroy the stigma and the shame of it.  It is not what most people think it is.  What people need to understand is that P addiction typically is not about sex or P at all, and it is not at all about lack of self-control.  I will explain below. I want addicts to understand what they are going through and why (most have no clue), and I want spouses of addicts to understand that this is NOT about them; it is not their fault, and even though it may feel like your spouse is being unfaithful, it is not like that at all. 

Understanding the nature of this addiction will save marriages.  It NEEDS to be better understood. 

That is just it...the perceived problem is not really what the problem is at all.  It is not about P, it is not about sex, it is not about lust...those are just symptoms of the disease or core issues.   This is just a manifestation of a different problem. 

I am going to get real with you guys here.  Please forgive me, but it needs to be understood.  I am speaking from personal experience, but I am not alone in my experience.  It seems to be a common theme at support groups that I attend. For a better understanding, read Healing the Shame that Binds You, by John Bradshaw. 

Let me tell you guys what relationship anxiety is all about for those of you who don't understand it.  Relationship anxiety is frequently a core issue with P addicts (it was with me).  Relationship anxiety is the egg which comes before the chicken of P addiction.  It is the result of toxic shame.  Toxic shame is the yolk of the egg.  It is the conscious or deep subconscious belief that one is unlovable or unacceptable.  It is the belief that if people discovered your true nature...your true self...people would reject you.  So, addicts of all kinds create "false selves".  They wear faces.  They portray themselves to the world in a way that they believe is more acceptable, or hide from the world and relationships all together.  By so doing, their relationships with others are not genuine because they are hidden behind masks, so as to not be discovered for who they really are. This leads to emotional isolation and loneliness.  Even though they may have many friends or are married, they often feel utterly alone, like no one knows or accepts them for who they really are - because who they really are is hidden.  It is terribly lonely. 

At our core as humans, I think there is a fundamental desire to feel accepted by others.  Addicts, not just P addicts, suffer from self-induced isolation.  This lack of genuine intimacy in their lives leads to pain.  The person then has two options, they can come out of isolation and learn true intimacy (a terrifying prospect), or they can take the easy route and numb the pain.  How we choose to emotionally numb is how the addiction manifests.  P use is simply a pseudo intimacy which numbs and counterfeits for genuine intimacy.  

What we are seeing in this study, I think, is ta spiraling loop of toxic shame, due to misunderstanding of addiction.  The church needs to better explain the nature of this addiction to both the addict and the spouse who are suffering.  A proper understanding can go a long way to begin the healing process rather than exacerbate relationship anxiety. 

Everyone in this discussion should be listening to you and understanding this. In our groups we discuss precisely what you are describing here. There is so much misunderstanding.....and some of it seems to be intentional. 

Folks....here is a good brother who is willing to share his experience. What a wonderful opportunity to find some enlightenment. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Good questions. Yes, if P was inaccessible, relationship anxiety would still exist.  As Bluedreams correctly stated, you can't just get rid of the P.  Doing so without addressing the core issues will simply cause new/different manifestations of the same problem.  

You are also correct that P should not be the main focus.  That would be equivalent to treating/reducing leg edema without addressing the congestive heart failure which is causing the edema.  In other words, sobriety should not be the goal, recovery should be the ultimate goal.  There is a BIG difference. 

John Bradshaw, author of Healing the Shame that Binds You, does believe that toxic shame is at the core of all addiction.  I think that I agree with him from my extensive experience with addicts.  It can manifest itself in many, many different ways.  You would never suspect toxic shame in some people because they can present as super-human, over achievers; the center of attention, the prom queens or captain of the football team, the straight A students, the business super-stars, the perfectionists, the popular kids.  These people often do not appear to have any form of relationship anxiety whatsoever, and they might not even recognize it in themselves because they are comfortable in the mask they are wearing and can act the part without anxiety - but inside they will feel alone, even surrounded by friends.  People can isolate in plain site.  What is anxiety inducing is revealing the true-self, removing the mask of the perfect kid, and forming genuine relationships based on true emotional intimacy.  

I don't suspect that everyone who looks at P, even on a regular basis, is an "addict", some people view it for other reasons too. 

Or the faithful returned missionary/temple-married Church leader who has successfully hidden porn use since his early teens and is now found out by leaving traces on his computer or cell phone or acts out and gets caught. And his wife, although sensing something has not been quite right all along, has her world thrown violently into chaos. The shame accompanying that discovery is overwhelming. The good news is that often it can be healed, but the bad news is that sometimes it can't. 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Tsuzuki said:

I'll defend the industry. I have friends who work in it. They find it rewarding and it helps them feed their families.

This is truly disappointing, Tzuzuki. Nothing good comes from pornography production or consumption.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I think this is where my understanding of the issue gets cloudy.

But I can understand it to a certain point.  Early in my marriage, I really enjoyed playing the video game "Starcraft".  There was a period of time where I played it too much.  I stayed up too late, and had a hard time getting up for work.  I didn't lose my job, but I would take a nap at lunch.  There were times I should have been spending time with my wife and kid(s), but I played video games instead.

My wife complained a little, and eventually I just quit.  Almost cold turkey.  Once or twice a year, I would go to a family gathering where my brothers, nephews, and other family members would all bring laptops and we'd have 8 people playing.  I'd play for the weekend, and then stop once I got home.  Eventually my son was old enough to play, and I taught him.  We'd play together, but not more than we might play any regular game.  "Starcraft 2" came out and I bought it and played it for a few weeks, and then occasionally with my son after that.  But I never stayed up late or was late to a meal.  I haven't played it for months (probably more than a year at this point).  But I'm going to a family reunion in July and already got the email saying "Bring your laptop and Starcraft 2!"

So, was I "addicted"?  I don't know.  Maybe by some definitions I was.  Either way, thank goodness I was able to stop.

Now, take that story and imagine that instead of Starcraft, I was looking at pictures of naked women.  Suppose my wife knew, and while she wasn't thrilled, she wouldn't leave me for it.  Is that a worse addiction than video games?

That's what I don't understand.  How are people losing their families, jobs and children because they look at pornography (the study addresses why they are losing their self-respect and faith)?  I've owned a business for 15 years and had hundreds and hundreds of employees pass through, and I've never fired anyone for "pornography addiction".  I did fire someone because they sent a link to a "funny" pornographic video to another employee and accidentally copied me on it, but I think he just thought it was a funny video; I don't think he was addicted (I was looking to lose a few employees at the time and he just gave me an easy excuse).

P addiction can be devastating on spouses.  My wife told me that she felt like I was cheating on her, that I was commiting infidelity/adulatory with other women in my heart.  Some believe that their husbands use P because they are not beautiful/good enough for them.  It can be terribly damaging to them.  What is worse is that even after they bare their soul and the pain that it is causing them, their husbands continue to use anyway.    Which can feel like their husbands just don't care about their feelings at all or they would quit.  The husbands lie and hide in secrecy.  When they are found out, trust goes out the window too!  Once you feel like you can't trust your husband, that he doesnt respect or care for your feelings, that he is not attracted to you, that he is cheating on you in his heart...it can easily lead to divorce after years and years of this with no end in sight.

As far as work goes, the people I know of had strict internet policies against P use at work...does that stop an addict from using even at work, unfortunately not for some.

That is the ludicracy of this disease, people do insane things that they would not do otherwise. They take insane risks and gamble all for their fix.

[Rain]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

The healthier way to live is to educate ourselves about addiction instead of avoiding the diagnosis all together in order to avoid the stigma and "shame" of it. 

Sugar addiction is a real thing my friend   

If you are addicted (not saying you are), it is best to acknowledge the addiction and seek help - diabetes is a terrible, terrible thing!

The trick is to NOT to heap shame upon yourself.  That is not necessary, it is not helpful, and it makes things much, much worse!  You seem to be equating admitting that you are an addict with heaping shame on yourself.  It doesn't need to be that way (though it frequently is).  A proper understanding of addiction removes the shame of it.  

 

Just gotta say it as a diabetic for 39 years - diabetes is not caused by eating sugar.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Gray said:

Maybe, but actual clinical addition to pron is rare. We seem to categorize just about any use as some kind of addiction in Mormon culture. 

I have a tough time staying away from sweets. If I started calling it addiction and started heaping shame on myself about it, I might turn to a secret candy stash to deal with the emotional turmoil. It might even become an actual honest to goodness addiction, instead of a bad habit. 

This trivializes the problems caused by addiction. Would you say your candy cravings can be described this way?

Quote

(1) Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:

(a) A need for markedly increased amounts or more candyto achieve desired effect.

(b) Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount.

(2) Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following: (a) The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for candy (refer to Criteria A or B of the criteria sets for Withdrawal from candy). (b) The same (or a related) candy is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.

(3) Candy is often used in larger amounts (or has more sugar content) or is used over a longer period than was intended.

(4) There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down on eating candy.

(5) A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain the candy (such as visiting multiple web sites or driving long distances to get candy), to eat candy, or to recover from its effects.

(6) Important family, marital, social, occupational, health, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of candy use.

(7) Candy use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical, health, or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the use, or despite loss of income, employment, spouse, or family.

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

Having to admit powerlessness in the face of these problems is my biggest gripe with these programs. In the long run and at a certain point, the child needs to grow up and face these challenges on their own as an adult. These AA based programs don't allow this to fully occur. There never is a graduation day.

Have you had to deal with addiction or spoken with someone in recovery? I used to think this way, but through sad experience I have come to know how wrong I was. The first thing an addict loses is fee will.