BYU Study on Pornography: "It’s not porn use, but rather the belief in porn addiction and the conflict with religion, which predict porn-related problems."

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, rongo said:

My issue with the ARP approach (in practice, not in theory or in the materials. The materials in theory and in writing preach full recovery and healing through the atonement) is that in practice, the message is "you will always be an addict and will always need the support of mentors or the group." And any attempt by individuals or priesthood leaders to work towards not needing the training wheels at some point are met with outrage (naive, delusional, ignorant, etc.). 

I firmly believe that it is indeed possible, through the atonement and through our own will and agency, to be free of the scourge of sexual sin. It is not easy, and won't happen overnight, but I believe that it can happen --- and should be the goal.

I remember reading this article many years ago in the DN, where the two camps argue over this. The counselor/therapists are apoplectic at the knuckle-dragging, delusional approach that people can actually quit without needing training wheels for life. 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/520033358/Just-quit-already-addiction-lecturer-says.html

If you are basing your opinions on things you read years ago, I suggest you get up to date. You are not describing the program we have been participating in and working in for over 10 years. We know people (addicts and family members) whose very lives were saved by what you unfortunately call "training wheels." My son is one of them.

Perhaps you could look this over and try to find statements like the ones you made. I would be interested to see them.

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/home?lang=eng

Edited May 3, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I understand what you are going through with your children and maybe the AA type program would be great for them. In the case of my friends, I think it wouldn't have worked because it didn't. They both tried it and it failed.

I think part of the problem is that AA, ARP, and other addiction group therapy programs their power is only partially in the actual program steps and more in the capacity to see people like themselves in all walks of life, to have positive support, and to help reduce shame. It can also help give better perspective. It's usually mentioned as being supplemental rather than an absolute cure....especially for very entrenched or extreme problems. In a sort it helps in the same way as eating a balanced diet helps cancer. It may reduce the risk for certain cancers, and even give you better odds of survival. But eating your fruits and veg will not magically act like medical interventions and cure you.

I don't know if group "failed" your friends. From what you're describing they had deep seated issues that probably needed not just one form of intervention but several, including long-term therapy. Yes, I'm biased in recommending therapy...I still feel pretty good about recommending it. 

I also think powerlessness can get a bad rap. It's actually one of my more favorite points, especially with perfectionistic addicts who are more on the end of controlling to maintain image or in denial about the depth of their problems. Also helpful for those who fall into a hole of deep shame and disgust every time they act out. It's not this sense that there's nothing they can ever do, but more along the lines that none of us can really do it alone and at the place they're at, their life has become unmanageable. Along with the serenity prayer and other steps it becomes clear that you can be held accountable and should for your life and can take steps to help yourself...and need to. But you can't do it alone and will need to rely on a higher power to do so. In essence, all of us do. Powerlessness is one of the first ways to help people recognize what they can and can't do in their lives or others lives. It's also needed for placing proper boundaries with spouses or partners.

 

with luv,

BD 

Edited May 3, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Smoking tobacco is morally acceptable in the US, it is simply seen as a bad unhealthy habit, but no one judges a smoker, and yet smoking rates are going down in the US. 

According to Gallup, only 33% of Americans think gambling is not "morally acceptable". 66% of Americans think pornography is not "morally acceptable". 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/192404/birth-control-divorce-top-list-morally-acceptable-issues.aspx

You don't think non smokers judge smokers?  I had a friend (agnostic) whose father smoked, she judged him as stupid, disgusting (she saw it as filthy), and selfish for smoking and his death from cancer only proved her opinion to her.

And it just wasn't her who saw it as immoral.  

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23557473?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, cinepro said:

That's what I don't understand.  How are people losing their families, jobs and children because they look at pornography (the study addresses why they are losing their self-respect and faith)?  I've owned a business for 15 years and had hundreds and hundreds of employees pass through, and I've never fired anyone for "pornography addiction".  I did fire someone because they sent a link to a "funny" pornographic video to another employee and accidentally copied me on it, but I think he just thought it was a funny video; I don't think he was addicted (I was looking to lose a few employees at the time and he just gave me an easy excuse).

I know several people. For one (and I'm not revealing any confidential information because his name and photo were in the news)....a friend and associate on the stake high council was seen by a passer-by watching porn on the computer screen in his police cruiser. That was the end of his career in law enforcement. As more things were discovered, it also cost him his membership and his family. He moved away, so I have not kept track of him. I totally expect he has worked for recovery of all the above where possible. 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

13 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I think part of the problem is that AA, ARP, and other addiction group therapy programs their power is only partially in the actual program steps and more in the capacity to see people like themselves in all walks of life, to have positive support, and to help reduce shame. It can also help give better perspective. It's usually mentioned as being supplemental rather than an absolute cure....especially for very entrenched or extreme problems. In a sort it helps in the same way as eating a balanced diet helps cancer. It may reduce the risk for certain cancers, and even give you better odds of survival. But eating your fruits and veg will not magically act like medical interventions and cure you.

I don't know if group "failed" your friends. From what you're describing they had deep seated issues that probably needed not just one form of intervention but several, including long-term therapy. Yes, I'm biased in recommending therapy...I still feel pretty good about recommending it. 

I also think powerlessness can get a bad rap. It's actually one of my more favorite points, especially with perfectionistic addicts who are more on the end of controlling to maintain image or in denial about the depth of their problems. Also helpful for those who fall into a hole of deep shame and disgust every time they act out. It's not this sense that there's nothing they can ever do, but more along the lines that none of us can really do it alone and at the place they're at, their life has become unmanageable. Along with the serenity prayer and other steps it becomes clear that you can be held accountable and should for your life and can take steps to help yourself...and need to. But you can't do it alone and will need to rely on a higher power to do so. In essence, all of us do. Powerlessness is one of the first ways to help people recognize what they can and can't do in their lives or others lives. It's also needed for placing proper boundaries with spouses or partners.

 

with luv,

BD 

These are certainly tough issues and I don't pretend to have the answers. I can only act according to my perception and experience in the best way I can. Sure, confession is a part of real positive change and if confession of powerlessness is part of that, so be it if it brings results. Maybe I need to admit that I am powerless to help someone mired in addiction? However, as soon as I entertain that thought, I think of having a finish line of recovery. To me the goal ought to be power over addiction and maybe confessing powerlessness is the path to that? However, I don't think the ultimate goal of power over addiction, e.g. self-control, should be discounted or not even mentioned.

[Raingirl]

35 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

CFR that porn causes (or makes) men to treat women like objects. 

Most young women in the US like to wear short skirts or tight pants, and men like that. Is that objectifying? 

Watching the Olympics beach volleyball. Is that objectifying? Or when women see shirtless men on a magazine. Objectifying? 

In case you missed it 

 

Thanks 

So predictable.  Any time porn, nudity, "adult clubs" and the like are brought up in a thread - there you are rushing in to defend and glorify it all.

And that you throw out a CFR, smugly confident that your viewpoint of porn being a wonderful thing cannot be challenged by such silly things as research and facts, well, it just shows how deep-seated your problem is.

Why are you so worried that pornography will (has been) proven to be damaging, degrading....just plain wrong?  Is it because you are unable to give up your use of it?  Or because you simply are unwilling?  Are you as upfront in your defense and promotion of pornography, strip clubs, etc. with your bishop?  With the women you try to date?  Or do you save it for anonymous message boards so the aforementioned people in your real life don't find out about it?

By the way, your statement about what "most young women" like to wear is just straight BS and says more about you than it does about young women.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I agree that the ARP program is not a helpful approach for p0rn usage, especially for young people. We sometimes have teens that are assigned by their bishops to attend to overcome their "p0rn addiction" of watching it 2-3 times per month. It pathologizes the problem, induces long lasting shame, and makes the individual feel somewhat helpless.

I have not argued that p0rn is good, only that calling the average user an addict is bad. (there will always be exceptions but it seems like leaders jump very quickly to the "addict" label.)

Youth cannot participate in LDS ARP programs. I am unaware of any such groups for youth. ARP provides private counseling for youth and parents. If you are aware of any groups for youth, I would like to know about them. People in our groups are not those who watch porn 2 or 3 times a month. Nor are there people who use heroin, pot, cocaine, meth, or alcohol once or twice a month. People come whose lives are in chaos, who see no way out, and have tried and failed to deal with the problem on their own. Many people are ashamed that others would find out, so they don't come. That's too bad. There's is nothing in our meetings that could remotely be called shaming the individual or making him/her feel hopeless and chained for life.

 

You can read exactly what is discussed in LDS ARP meetings. We do not report to anyone who attends or what is said. 

What do you find in these materials that pathologizes the problem, induces long lasting shame, and makes the individual feel somewhat helpless?

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/find-a-meeting?lang=eng  

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/bc/content/arp/content/manuals/ARPGuide_English_36764.pdf?lang=eng

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/spouses-and-families?lang=eng

[Darren10]

15 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Porn is a form of sexual expression (however unhealthy) you shouldn't cut yourself off from your sexuality. And yes, I've seen that happen or people become afraid of their sexuality because of trying to remove the porn. In essence, it replaces one disorder with another. Porn addiction IMO is closer to having a binge eating disorder. You don't just stop eating or you get anorexia. Instead you teach the person a healthier form of sexuality and sexual expression. 

i could go on, but it's temple time.

with luv,

BD

I agree the best way to out of porn is to teach better a form of sexual expression. I was only addressing the addictive nature if pornography and once addicted, it is very wise to not even tease yourself with it lest you get sucked right back into it. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Darren10

[Bernard Gui]

I am shocked (dismayed?) at the lack of knowledge many have about the LDS Family Services programs and the misinformation that is being spread here. I suppose we don't find out about them until we need them. If you look at the two manuals (for addicts and family support) you will see that anyone, even people who have no problem with addiction, can benefit from them. If you want to serve a mission and still live at home, why not consider being a Service Missionary in the Addiction Recovery Program? It is one of the best things that has happened to Sister Gui and me, both as participants and group leaders. So much so that we keep re-upping our 2 years, now extending to 12.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Youth cannot participate in LDS ARP programs. I am unaware of any such groups for youth. ARP provides private counseling for youth and parents. If you are aware of any groups for youth, I would like to know about them. People in our groups are not those who watch porn 2 or 3 times a month. Nor are there people who use heroin, pot, cocaine, meth, or alcohol once or twice a month. People come whose lives are in chaos, who see no way out, and have tried and failed to deal with the problem on their own. Many people are ashamed that others would find out, so they don't come. That's too bad. There's is nothing in our meetings that could remotely be called shaming the individual or making him/her feel hopeless and chained for life.

 

You can read exactly what is discussed in LDS ARP meetings. We do not report to anyone who attends or what is said. 

What do you find in these materials that pathologizes the problem, induces long lasting shame, and makes the individual feel somewhat helpless?

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/find-a-meeting?lang=eng  

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/bc/content/arp/content/manuals/ARPGuide_English_36764.pdf?lang=eng

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/spouses-and-families?lang=eng

My parents were called to serve in the addiction recovery program when it first began in their area. They too described it as non shaming and very supportive of  all there. Individual worth has a very high value in that program. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Darren10

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

CFR that porn causes (or makes) men to treat women like objects. 

Most young women in the US like to wear short skirts or tight pants, and men like that. Is that objectifying? 

Watching the Olympics beach volleyball. Is that objectifying? Or when women see shirtless men on a magazine. Objectifying? 

In case you missed it 

 

Thanks 

Please don't get this thread shut down.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is something I struggle with as well because many people understand "admitting powerlessness" to be a kind of, throw your hands up in the air and have faith that God will heal you. It can be miscommunicated in a way that the person feels a kind of unalterable destiny of their addiction that they cannot change, and therefore don't work towards.

Then you don't understand what "admitting powerlessness" means. In Family Support, the concept of powerlessness means we have no power over the choices of our addicted loved one. That is a hard thing to accept.

 Maybe this will help....from the recovering addict's manual.

Quote

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/steps/1?lang=eng

Step 1: Honesty

KEY PRINCIPLE: Admit that you, of yourself, are powerless to overcome your addictions and that your life has become unmanageable.

Many of us began our addictions out of curiosity. Some of us became involved because of a justifiable need for a prescription drug or as an act of deliberate rebellion. Many began this path when barely older than children. Whatever our motive for starting and our circumstances, we soon discovered that the addiction relieved more than just physical pain. It provided stimulation or numbed painful feelings or moods. It helped us avoid the problems we faced—or so we thought. For a while, we felt free of fear, worry, loneliness, discouragement, regret, or boredom. But because life is full of the conditions that prompt these kinds of feelings, we resorted to our addictions more and more often. Still, most of us failed to recognize or admit that we had lost the ability to resist and abstain on our own. As Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Quorum of the Twelve observed: “Addiction surrenders later freedom to choose. Through chemical means, one can literally become disconnected from his or her own will” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1988, 7; or Ensign,Nov. 1988, 7).

Rarely do people caught in addictive behaviors admit to being addicted. To deny the seriousness of our condition and to avoid detection and the consequences of our choices, we tried to minimize or hide our behaviors. We did not realize that by deceiving others and ourselves, we slipped deeper into our addictions. As our powerlessness over addiction increased, many of us found fault with family, friends, Church leaders, and even God. We plunged into greater and greater isolation, separating ourselves from others, especially from God. When we, as addicts, resorted to lies and secrecy, hoping to excuse ourselves or blame others, we weakened spiritually. With each act of dishonesty, we bound ourselves with “flaxen cords” that soon became as strong as chains (see 2 Nephi 26:22). Then a time came when we were brought face to face with reality. We could no longer hide our addictions by telling one more lie or by saying, “It’s not that bad!”

A loved one, a doctor, a judge, or an ecclesiastical leader told us the truth we could no longer deny—the addiction was destroying our lives. When we honestly looked at the past, we admitted that nothing we had tried on our own had worked. We acknowledged that the addiction had only gotten worse. We realized how much our addictions had damaged relationships and robbed us of any sense of worth. At this point, we took the first step toward freedom and recovery by finding courage to admit that we were not just dealing with a problem or a bad habit. We finally admitted the truth that our lives had become unmanageable and that we needed help to overcome our addictions. The amazing thing about this honest realization of defeat was that recovery finally began.

The Book of Mormon prophet Ammon plainly stated the truth we discovered when we were finally honest with ourselves:

“I do not boast in my own strength, nor in my own wisdom; but behold, my joy is full, yea, my heart is brim with joy, and I will rejoice in my God.

“Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things” (Alma 26:11–12).

 

---

Action Steps

BECOME WILLING TO ABSTAIN

Even though people’s addictions are different, some truths, like this one, never vary—nothing begins without an individual’s will to make it begin. Freedom from addiction and uncleanliness begin with a tiny flicker of will. People say individuals finally become willing to abstain when the pain of the problem becomes worse than the pain of the solution. Have you come to that point? If you have not and you continue in your addiction, you surely will reach that point because addiction is a progressive problem. Like a degenerative disease, it eats at your ability to function normally. The only requirement to begin recovery is the desire to stop participating in the addiction. If your desire is small and inconsistent today, don’t worry. It will grow!

Some people recognize the need to be free from addiction but are not yet willing to begin. If you are in that situation, perhaps you can begin by acknowledging your unwillingness and considering the costs of your addiction. You can list what is important to you. Look at your family and social relationships, your relationship to God, your spiritual strength, your ability to help and bless others, your health. Then look for contradictions between what you believe in and hope for and your behavior. Consider how your actions undermine what you value. You can pray that the Lord will help you see yourself and your life as He sees it— with all your divine potential—and what you risk by continuing in your addiction.

A recognition of what you lose by indulging in your addiction can help you find the desire to stop. If you can find even the smallest desire, you will have room to begin step 1. And as you progress through the steps of this program and see the changes that come into your life, your desire will grow.

LET GO OF PRIDE AND SEEK HUMILITY

Pride and honesty cannot coexist. Pride is an illusion and is an essential element of all addiction. Pride distorts the truth about things as they are, as they have been, and as they will be. It is a major obstacle to your recovery. President Ezra Taft Benson defined pride:

“Pride is a very misunderstood sin. . . .

“Most of us think of pride as self-centeredness, conceit, boastfulness, arrogance, or haughtiness. All of these are elements of the sin, but the heart, or core, is still missing.

“The central feature of pride is enmity—enmity toward God and enmity toward our fellowmen. Enmity means ‘hatred toward, hostility to, or a state of opposition.’ It is the power by which Satan wishes to reign over us.

“Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God’s. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of ‘my will and not thine be done.’ . . .

“Our will in competition to God’s will allows desires, appetites, and passions to go unbridled (see Alma 38:12; 3 Nephi 12:30).

“The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives (see Helaman 12:6). They pit their perceptions of truth against God’s great knowledge, their abilities versus God’s priesthood power, their accomplishments against His mighty works” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1989, 3–4; or Ensign, May 1989, 4).

As you become willing to abstain and admit the problems you face, your pride will gradually be replaced with humility.

 

ADMIT THE PROBLEM; SEEK HELP; ATTEND MEETINGS

When we indulged our addictions, we lied to ourselves and others. But we could not really fool ourselves. We pretended we were fine, full of bravado and excuses, but somewhere deep inside we knew. The Light of Christ continued to remind us. We knew we were sliding down a slippery slope toward greater and greater sorrow. Denying this truth was such hard work that it was a big relief finally to admit that we had a problem. Suddenly, we allowed a tiny opening for hope to slip in.

When we chose to admit to ourselves that we had a problem and we became willing to seek support and help, we gave that hope a place to grow. We were then ready to take the next step of attending a recovery meeting. Participation in a support group or a recovery meeting may not be feasible for everyone. If you cannot attend a recovery meeting, you can still follow each of the steps, with minor modifications, as you work with your bishop or a carefully chosen professional counselor.

When attendance at a recovery meeting is possible, you will find it helpful for at least two reasons. First, at these meetings you will study specific gospel principles that, when applied, will help you change your behavior. President Boyd K. Packer of the Quorum of the Twelve taught:

“The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. Preoccupation with unworthy behavior can lead to unworthy behavior. That is why we stress so forcefully the study of the doctrines of the gospel” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 20; or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 17).

Second, these meetings are a place to gather with others seeking recovery and with those who have already taken this path and are living proof of its effectiveness. In recovery meetings you will find understanding, hope, and support.

 

---

Study and Understanding

Studying the scriptures and the statements of Church leaders will help you begin your recovery. This study will increase your understanding and help you learn. You can use the scriptures, statements, and questions that follow for prayerful personal study, for writing, and for group discussion. The thought of writing may frighten you, but writing is a powerful tool for recovery. It will give you time to reflect; it will help you focus your thinking; it will help you see and understand the issues, thoughts, and behaviors surrounding your addiction. When you write, you will also have a record of your thoughts. As you progress through the steps, you will be able to measure your progress. For now, just be honest and sincere as you write your thoughts, feelings, and impressions.

 

ENCOMPASSED BY TEMPTATIONS

“I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.

“And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.

“My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

“He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh” (2 Nephi 4:18–21).

• Do you feel encompassed or trapped? When do you feel this way most often?

• What situations or feelings weakened you so you gave in to your addiction?

• When Nephi felt overwhelmed, in whom did he place his trust? What can you do to place more trust in the Lord?

 

“I KNOW THAT MAN IS NOTHING”

“It came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself:

Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed” (Moses 1:10).

• How did Moses describe himself as compared to God?

• How can a little child be of infinite worth and still be nothing when compared to his or her parents?

• In what ways are you nothing when you do not have the help of God?

• In what ways are you of infinite worth?

• Write about how recognizing your helplessness to overcome your addiction on your own can bring you to admit your own nothingness and become as a little child.

 

HUNGER AND THIRST

“Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled” (Matthew 5:6).

“And my soul hungered; and I kneeled down before my Maker, and I cried unto him in mighty prayer and did I cry unto him; yea, and when the night came I did still raise my voice high that it reached the heavens” (Enos 1:4).

• In these two scriptures, we learn that our souls can hunger. Do you ever feel empty inside, even when you are not physically hungry? What causes that emptiness?

• How can your hunger for things of the Spirit help you be more honest?

 

HONESTY

“Some may regard the quality of character known as honesty to be a most ordinary subject. But I believe it to be the very essence of the gospel. Without honesty, our lives…will degenerate into ugliness and chaos” (Gordon B. Hinckley, “We Believe in Being Honest,” Ensign, Oct. 1990, 2).

• Write about ways you have lied and attempted to hide your addiction from yourself and others. How has this behavior caused “ugliness and chaos”?

 

HUMILITY

“Because ye are compelled to be humble blessed are ye; for a man sometimes, if he is compelled to be humble, seeketh repentance; and now surely, whosoever repenteth shall find mercy; and he that findeth mercy and endureth to the end the same shall be saved” (Alma 32:13).

• Write about the circumstances that have compelled you to humility and to seek repentance. What hope does Alma give you? How can you find or receive that hope?

 

THE LORD’S DELIGHT

“Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight” (Proverbs 12:22).

• Writing the answers to these questions has called for a deep level of honesty about yourself. How does this passage of scripture relate to this kind of honesty? How can you become the Lord’s delight?

 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

You assume too much. CFR that porn users are supporting criminal acts. 

Nearly all men watch porn, are nearly all men criminals? 

There is also g@y porn for men, is g@y porn violence against men? 

Please show me evidence of human trafficking in legal pornographic film studios. In adult news video stores you won't find slaves or underage actors. 

Please don't get this thread shut down.

[MormonVideoGame]

27 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

So predictable.  Any time porn, nudity, "adult clubs" and the like are brought up in a thread - there you are rushing in to defend and glorify it all.

And that you throw out a CFR, smugly confident that your viewpoint of porn being a wonderful thing cannot be challenged by such silly things as research and facts, well, it just shows how deep-seated your problem is.

Why are you so worried that pornography will (has been) proven to be damaging, degrading....just plain wrong?  Is it because you are unable to give up your use of it?  Or because you simply are unwilling?  Are you as upfront in your defense and promotion of pornography, strip clubs, etc. with your bishop?  With the women you try to date?  Or do you save it for anonymous message boards so the aforementioned people in your real life don't find out about it?

Here is some research 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301051115300107

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26893127

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26185674

I am not here to discuss my personal life

Edited May 3, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[mrmarklin]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

Wow I had no idea so many Mormons were so addicted to porn that they were loosing their family, jobs, children, self-respect and  faith.  No wonder there have been so many talks about this subject.  It sounds like it has reached epic proportions in the Mormon church.  I personally know no person who has even come close to this kind of porn addictions. Is this kind of addiction a Utah thing?  I have heard several references to Utah being among the top states in the country to view porn.

Most Mormons are not so addicted, of course. The leaders recognize it as a problem in relationships and accordingly advise against.

I don't perceive this as a major problem in my church experience, but with the availability of porn on the internet maybe things have changed a lot. I trend older.:-)

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

What they needed was a way to deal with the underlying issues as adults and not be told they were powerless children to drug addiction forever in need of a nanny.

Who told them that? 
Relapse is a real problem addicts and their loved ones have to deal with. Even a one-off can be fatal. A very close friend lost her son to a heroin overdose. After several years of sobriety and getting his life together, he went to a friend's bachelor party. His buddies convinced him to use just this one time. He was found dead out on the street the next morning. His friends were so wasted they didn't even know he was out there. Relapse can happen at any time. A one-off can even be fatal.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

I understand what you are going through with your children and maybe the AA type program would be great for them. In the case of my friends, I think it wouldn't have worked because it didn't. They both tried it and it failed.

Thanks for the sentiments, but we have been dealing with the drug problems for 11 years now. It's been an interesting journey.

[mrmarklin]

6 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

You assume too much. CFR that porn users are supporting criminal acts. 

Nearly all men watch porn, are nearly all men criminals? 

There is also g@y porn for men, is g@y porn violence against men? 

Please show me evidence of human trafficking in legal pornographic film studios. In adult news video stores you won't find slaves or underage actors. 

Don't be naive about the sex industry. I've personally known people in prostitution, and other aspects of the industry, and in every case these are seriously damaged personalities. They only appear to be having fun. The film "stars" are ACTRESSES, not real women necessarily having a lot of fun.  Drugs are rampant. 

They have to be when one thinks of the indignities these people go through. Low self esteem is a common denominator. 

Legal porn is still human trafficking.  Legality does not change that. 

[BlueDreams]

7 hours ago, cinepro said:

I think this is where my understanding of the issue gets cloudy.

But I can understand it to a certain point.  Early in my marriage, I really enjoyed playing the video game "Starcraft".  There was a period of time where I played it too much.  I stayed up too late, and had a hard time getting up for work.  I didn't lose my job, but I would take a nap at lunch.  There were times I should have been spending time with my wife and kid(s), but I played video games instead.

My wife complained a little, and eventually I just quit.  Almost cold turkey.  Once or twice a year, I would go to a family gathering where my brothers, nephews, and other family members would all bring laptops and we'd have 8 people playing.  I'd play for the weekend, and then stop once I got home.  Eventually my son was old enough to play, and I taught him.  We'd play together, but not more than we might play any regular game.  "Starcraft 2" came out and I bought it and played it for a few weeks, and then occasionally with my son after that.  But I never stayed up late or was late to a meal.  I haven't played it for months (probably more than a year at this point).  But I'm going to a family reunion in July and already got the email saying "Bring your laptop and Starcraft 2!"

So, was I "addicted"?  I don't know.  Maybe by some definitions I was.  Either way, thank goodness I was able to stop.

No, by what you described you had a bad habit and were out of balance in priorities. What you were doing was unhealthy but it wasn't an addiction. You needed to reprioritize, not dig deep into your emotional past and traumas.  

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Now, take that story and imagine that instead of Starcraft, I was looking at pictures of naked women.  Suppose my wife knew, and while she wasn't thrilled, she wouldn't leave me for it.  Is that a worse addiction than video games?

Well, technically if I took this story truly as a parallel, you should be reported to CPS for child abuse. Introducing your son to video games is not the same. I say this largely in jest....but I do think it shows some of the distinctions between porn and something more inert such as video games (and I think video games can also be a waste of time and life and stunt development when played in excess).  

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That's what I don't understand.  How are people losing their families, jobs and children because they look at pornography (the study addresses why they are losing their self-respect and faith)?  I've owned a business for 15 years and had hundreds and hundreds of employees pass through, and I've never fired anyone for "pornography addiction".  I did fire someone because they sent a link to a "funny" pornographic video to another employee and accidentally copied me on it, but I think he just thought it was a funny video; I don't think he was addicted (I was looking to lose a few employees at the time and he just gave me an easy excuse).

Well there's several reasons. For what its worth, I don't know a lot of men or women who've lost their job to porn. Or at least porn by itself. I have seen them lose families and children to it. The problem is that its focusing on the porn itself. And the other problem with a single study (or even several) is that it can be reductionist in causes, focusing on 1 or 2 variables when several are generally at play. The last problem is that those who've lost this, unless they're working some form of recovery, won't usually come out and say "Yo, my wife divorced me because I couldn't lay off the porn."

The reasons I've seen are complicated. With porn addiction, they're often needing stronger and stronger stimulus to get the same effect. Some of these options can be costly. Such as online live-streams. Unchecked, they can wrack up thousands of dollars in debt. Part of this is the age at which they're being introduced to porn....right around the commencement (or increasingly before) puberty. This is around the time that most of us are learning emotional regulation. They find a very convenient easily accessible cheat sheet from having to deal with emotions, learning healthy ways to express your feelings, etc. If they're actually addicted, there's often a common theme of some form of severe emotional disruption as a child that turned curious time passing behavior they felt guilt of to necessary crutch. This can include affect disorders, deep feelings of inadequacy or shame, family disruptions (divorce, separations, deaths), etc. What this gives you is a spouse that vaguely stopped emotionally developing around the age of 12-15. They SUCK at emotional expressing, dealing with difficult situations, empathy, etc. You know, marital stuff and things that you'll end up experiencing as a parent. With children, several struggle with finding their parent watching porn or finding their porn, which can be traumatic. Particularly if the parent lies about it. Which they have a tendency to lie. A lot. Especially if it helps them avoid their problems. Others it will creep into their sex lives....both in objectification and more coercive behaviors as well as sexual anxiety and feelings of sexual inadequacy. So either their sex life is just disjointed or, at worse, the partner feels a vague sense of being used as a way to fulfill their porn fantasies. They may push for sexual acts that the other is not comfortable with or will describe having sex as more of a need. Without, again, really being emotionally available to their partner. If they know the partner is in the know of the problem it can lead to pressured sex....ie. if I don't put out he'll look at porn. Also because they've been more wired for instant gratification at the time we were just learning how to delay wants and desires for something better, they can be impulsive and have several other caustic behaviors such as uncontrolled spending, sexual harassment behaviors, abuse, manipulation, etc. Some have partners that simply can't emotionally separate the porn use from their relationship. Each time the partner acts out, which they will, it emotionally takes a big hit to the other. Often their more irritable and relationally damaging behaviors happen right before or after acting out. So the other partner is caught in an emotional roller coaster chronically managing the mood swings whether they know the source of them or not. 

And though none of these are specific examples. ALL of them I've seen at least twice as a therapist in the last 2 years. When I have a porn addiction case I barely focus on the porn. I do a little, but only in regaurds to helping them understand their cycle and reduce shame, become more in tune to the experience of their spouse, learn how to communicate, learn how to empathize with other's experiences, gain self-control and accountability, relearn (or learn) healthy sexuality, live with honesty, and manage their emotions in healthier ways, etc. I WISH it was as easy as just saying no more video games. Sometimes it is....sometimes it's a bad habit with just mild side-effects that disonnance with their spouse, self-respect, faith, or something like it. Those are generally pretty easy to see results in just a couple months. But with real porn addicts the prognosis is a couple years. And that's if they're actually working recovery. It's generally a month clean where they can manage with serious restrictions, a few more months before you start seeing some changes in their thought patterns and behaviors. After about 9 months to a year they'll likely leave my office with greater confidence that they can handle this....while still attending support groups at least intermittently. 

Which is probably why a number of people that are saying porn/sex addiction is for reals can come down hard on this research. This is something that is seen as culturally derived and when that happens it can inadvertently drive a problem that is already underground further underground. I have problems with the terminology of porn or sex addiction. I have problems with some of the methodology....but I will not say there isn't a problem. Something's wrong. And sometimes very wrong. And it follows such a set pattern in development that I can often write the script for them. But most people, until they have access to these people's lives, simply won't see it. The hardest part about porn addicts is that most of them can maintain a good cover life. Including their jobs. And when there are problems that start to crack through, it's blamed on other things. They're very good at hiding in plain site.

 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited May 3, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

While not an addiction, my disorder when flaring up removes control even though at this point there is no measurable way to indicate what is going on (no tests to measure the sensations that drive us to move for relief).  Before it was controlled most of the time with medication, I was literally throwing myself out of bed when it would ramp up. The reaction becomes instinctual.  My mother would tell me I only needed to hold myself tightly in nonmovement, fight the instinct and my body would follow my mind and I would be able to sleep.  No matter how many times I assured her that didn't work, she would calmly assure me it was just a matter of showing the body who is boss. She could assure me she had done it many times.

In physical matters, the body get what it wants or it makes one suffer.  What is different is the level of need and the immediate insistence for individuals, imo.  Some bodies are willing to be patient and accept substitutes.  Others' need is much stronger, so insistent it drives out every other thought so there is no way to engage willpower.  The brain just doesn't allow that.  Think of the difference between having to sneeze because of a tickle of dust and a full fledged allergy attack.  We can accept the impossibility of controlling an allergic reaction because it is easy to imagine these days the body responding to allergens even if we have never personally suffered such an attack.  We may not understand the intensity of the need, but we accept it and don't go looking for other explanations such as lack of personal moral control.  It is harder to do so with addictions because the mechanisms and triggers involved are much more complicated and less easily understood.  We can't understand that what is for us an annoying, distracting jingle that keeps repeating in our brain until we find something else to replace it is a thrumming, felt to the bone cacophony of noise that blasts every other sensation out of existence...

Or so I extrapolate from my own movement disorder symptoms.  I don't know how close I come, but it helps get me to understanding why and when it is becomes important to understand one is powerless (because it really goes against the mantras I was taught in my youth and many people keep sharing so I have to work at understanding).  Some must accept they are powerless otherwise it becomes pretty close to impossible to make the kinds of choices needed to make to avoid getting swallowed by the destructive drive.  Some of my extended family, many even now the disorder is known, think I am a hypochondriac for refusing to get in a car unless absolutely necessary. I feel immensely guilty for putting layers of protection between myself and the triggers because I know there are times when the disorder stays asleep.  I had a dear friend telling me I should go for my Dream rather than accepting it wasn't happening even after I assured her it wasn't possible and she kept pushing until I had to say "please, just stop, this isn't good".  Can you imagine the reactions of people when an addict tells them they are not going to be going to the funeral of a parent because they know there will be triggers there?  Will people be understanding or think they are a selfish brat who always puts themselves first, clueless that whatever good might occur by attending is swallowed up by the potential harm of triggering the addiction need?

You might be wise to encourage someone with a sore muscle to 'walk it off',  but it isn't wisdom to say the same to someone with a compound fracture or some long term permanent condition that requires special aids for moving to avoid damage.

-----

The fact that there are some who see themselves as addicts that are helped by other methods than a paradigm of powerlessness may be indicative of the confusion over exactly what addiction is.  Perhaps there are different forms of addiction, perhaps there is only one real form of addiction, but other disorders that come close to it.  That there may be other versions does not negate the reality that there are addictions where it is necessary to accept powerlessness, no matter how distasteful that may be.

People need to find what works for them.  I am not going to suggest that there aren't people that can't be helped by telling themselves they have the power.  I am saying insisting that everyone is ultimately in control and therefore a paradigm of powerlessness isn't allowing one to take responsibility or grow up or isn't realistic as they may someday be cured is not realistic in itself and is ignoring the physical side of addiction.  Would you gripe about a terminal cancer patient who accepted he was dying because he was powerless to resist the onslaught of the cancer cells and chose to go home to live with his family in peace until his death or placed his fate in the hands of God or the Universe rather than continue to insist that he was going to beat the cancer and be cured?

Accepting powerlessness in the face of inevitable causes can allow someone to take control of their life in ways they could not if they refused to allow themselves to see themselves that way.  There are other forms of hope that can blossom when one has accepted the way things are.

 

 

Thank you. I should introduce you to my friend in Michigan. Your stories are similar. God bless, Calm. 

When it comes to addiction, I'm for anything that works. 

I have another friend who had a serious substance abuse problem, so much that he was contemplating suicide. He made the plans and was about to carry them out when he got a phone call from an inspired Priesthood leader who had sensed something was very wrong. Something in their conversation provoked a profound response in my friend and he was instantly cured of his addiction. No counseling, no counter-drugs, no groups, just a miracle. Whatever works. Not everyone has that happen.

[Bernard Gui]

39 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

My patents were called to serve in the addiction recovery program when it first began in their area. THEY too described it as non shaming and very supportive of  all there. Individual worth has a very high value in that program. 

Exactly. I don't know where this animus is coming from. It certainly has not been my experience with the program.

[BlueDreams]

55 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

These are certainly tough issues and I don't pretend to have the answers. I can only act according to my perception and experience in the best way I can. Sure, confession is a part of real positive change and if confession of powerlessness is part of that, so be it if it brings results. Maybe I need to admit that I am powerless to help someone mired in addiction? However, as soon as I entertain that thought, I think of having a finish line of recovery. To me the goal ought to be power over addiction and maybe confessing powerlessness is the path to that? However, I don't think the ultimate goal of power over addiction, e.g. self-control, should be discounted or not even mentioned.

Which is why I also help them focus less on the end goal (which again assumes that they can control the end results of recovery) and to live more in their present. Recovery to me looks likes a capacity to live in their present without the constant need for unhealthy crutches. To live and value living for all its ups and downs and uncertainties. It's an experience not a destination. 

And to your first question. Yeah I think it's super helpful to admit that you are powerless to "help" someone mired in addiction. Or rather you're powerless to heal them, fix them, or manage their behaviors. Honestly, it's that awareness that allows me to do my job. I don't take on too much of their problems and then subsequently rob them of their own agency in the process. I can sleep at night even when I know one of my clients has decided to jump off the deep end and screw their lives up. Because I'm powerless to make them do anything. It's sometimes easier said than done....especially when it's someone you deeply love or care for. But it is what's needed. 

With luv,

BD

 

[Pete Ahlstrom]

16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who told them that? 
Relapse is a real problem addicts and their loved ones have to deal with. Even a one-off can be fatal. A very close friend lost her son to a heroin overdose. After several years of sobriety and getting his life together, he went to a friend's bachelor party. His buddies convinced him to use just this one time. He was found dead out on the street the next morning. His friends were so wasted they didn't even know he was out there. Relapse can happen at any time. A one-off can even be fatal.

These are difficult issues and I'm sure everyone is in your corner. I don't know how I'd cope with your situation. Maybe I'm coming at this from a naive belief that overcoming is possible and that the addict is not forever broken. However, whatever works in the long-term should be the goal

[Pete Ahlstrom]

5 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Which is why I also help them focus less on the end goal (which again assumes that they can control the end results of recovery) and to live more in their present. Recovery to me looks likes a capacity to live in their present without the constant need for unhealthy crutches. To live and value living for all its ups and downs and uncertainties. It's an experience not a destination. 

And to your first question. Yeah I think it's super helpful to admit that you are powerless to "help" someone mired in addiction. Or rather you're powerless to heal them, fix them, or manage their behaviors. Honestly, it's that awareness that allows me to do my job. I don't take on too much of their problems and then subsequently rob them of their own agency in the process. I can sleep at night even when I know one of my clients has decided to jump off the deep end and screw their lives up. Because I'm powerless to make them do anything. It's sometimes easier said than done....especially when it's someone you deeply love or care for. But it is what's needed. 

With luv,

BD

 

I appreciate your comment. I was really broken up when I heard my best friend from high school killed himself a few years ago. I had a lot of sleepless nights wondering if I should have been more forceful when he pushed me away. I guess one can't always help a panicking drowning man if one is in the water with him.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I think part of the problem is that AA, ARP, and other addiction group therapy programs their power is only partially in the actual program steps and more in the capacity to see people like themselves in all walks of life, to have positive support, and to help reduce shame. It can also help give better perspective. It's usually mentioned as being supplemental rather than an absolute cure....especially for very entrenched or extreme problems. In a sort it helps in the same way as eating a balanced diet helps cancer. It may reduce the risk for certain cancers, and even give you better odds of survival. But eating your fruits and veg will not magically act like medical interventions and cure you.

I don't know if group "failed" your friends. From what you're describing they had deep seated issues that probably needed not just one form of intervention but several, including long-term therapy. Yes, I'm biased in recommending therapy...I still feel pretty good about recommending it. 

I also think powerlessness can get a bad rap. It's actually one of my more favorite points, especially with perfectionistic addicts who are more on the end of controlling to maintain image or in denial about the depth of their problems. Also helpful for those who fall into a hole of deep shame and disgust every time they act out. It's not this sense that there's nothing they can ever do, but more along the lines that none of us can really do it alone and at the place they're at, their life has become unmanageable. Along with the serenity prayer and other steps it becomes clear that you can be held accountable and should for your life and can take steps to help yourself...and need to. But you can't do it alone and will need to rely on a higher power to do so. In essence, all of us do. Powerlessness is one of the first ways to help people recognize what they can and can't do in their lives or others lives. It's also needed for placing proper boundaries with spouses or partners.

 

with luv,

BD 

Thank you. As usual, well-said.