BYU Study on Pornography: "It’s not porn use, but rather the belief in porn addiction and the conflict with religion, which predict porn-related problems."

[HappyJackWagon]

31 minutes ago, rongo said:

Why would simply viewing pornography (sans masturbation) be morally worse than masturbation itself? And, what severity level, morally, would you place on the fantasizing/ideation that accompanies masturbation? To me, there is no difference imagining something than there is in viewing it or participating in it. And that is what Jesus taught in all of our scriptures.

 

 

This is insisted on today, but I don't believe that it is natural or developmental. This usually elicits "there are masturbators, and those who say they never have are liars" responses, but it isn't true. It is possible to make it through life never having tried it, but that of course won't happen if people are told that it is natural and developmental. Then, you approach 100% certainty that it will.

In my mind p0rn is more problematic because of the way it objectifies people. It's also been well-documented that there is abuse and exploitation that occurs in the creation of p0rn. Those things alone make it worse.

Mstrbtion is simply a sxual release that is a natural biological need.

Do you know many people who have gone their entire life without trying it? I don't.

[juliann]

A study that measures self-perception has a problem from the get-go. It is the conclusion stated in the article that concerns me: "Treat the shame, not the porn." There is a push, especially in more common liberal feminist groups, to normalize porn. Yet porn is an assault on women. It has an underbelly that includes trafficking and torture, not to mention its encouragement of relieving men of seeing women as fellow human beings. (And please forgo the NotAllMan! appearance since porn is predominantly a male venue.)

Only radical feminism is making a stand against violence against women. Ironically, some countries have made gains against prostitution by arresting the johns rather than the victims. When people are being hurt, some shame is not a bad thing. If you are concerned about the victims rather than their users and abusers.

This is as absurd as telling c h i l d porn users to feel no shame, or to ignore the real problem...the producers and the people who make it profitable, the users. There needs to be a new look at what porn really is and to stop acting like it is little different than an entertaining movie. 

As for the addiction label, I can see "religious" people using that as a way to escape responsibility. There is a different meaning for that word, but it includes helplessness. I would certainly rather be labeled as an addict rather than as somebody who chooses to and enjoys watching women or children being used and abused. 

[rongo]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

In my mind p0rn is more problematic because of the way it objectifies people. It's also been well-documented that there is abuse and exploitation that occurs in the creation of p0rn. Those things alone make it worse.

Mstrbtion is simply a sxual release that is a natural biological need.

Do you know many people who have gone their entire life without trying it? I don't.

I don't, and I agree that many/most youth have at least tried it, but I know that it is possible not to because I never have. I was aware of it as a concept (jokes and locker room talk), but didn't dwell on it, and certainly wasn't going to ever do it. I didn't want to commit a serious sin!

My father and I were both bishops concurrently several years ago, and he was a YSA bishop. We were talking about the scourge and plague of porn/masturbation, and I asked him if he ever had. He said he hadn't, either, but we agreed that we appear to be outliers. It seems to me that if parents take initiative and prepare their children with that in mind, it is possible to get their children safely through their teenage years without them ever experimenting with it (and hence, not developing a problem). 

The topic is graphic enough. Don't expand it. 

[Gray]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

How does this study square with those non-religious people who believe that porn use is bad?

Atheist starts popular Reddit group that focuses on quitting masturbation and porn use

And many in Hollywood are coming forward and stating how porn has messed up their lives or created negative side effects.

Joseph Gorden-Levitt shares his thoughts on porn

At the end of the article is a video where other actor talk about how porn has affected them as well.  These people don't see like it's their religious beliefs that are causing the problems.

Maybe the conclusion is that while porn is an overall negative, pathologizing it makes it much much worse? 

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The problem arises in the way treatment is administered. If it is treated like an addiction, it actually causes more harm than any good it may do. The church, through it's Addiction Recovery Program, and therefore many church leaders (bishops and SP) treat p0rn usage as an addiction which then exacerbates any problem that may exist.

I have been involved in the LDS Addiction Recovery Program for over 10 years. Over the years the numbers of people seeking help for porn usage has increased dramatically. If they come, they have progressed far beyond casual viewing to obsessive abuse that is wreaking havoc in their lives. This can take the form of loss of employment, financial ruin, substance abuse to self-medicate, physical, mental, and sexual abuse, estrangement and abandonment with an inability to stop regardless the negative consequences. At this point, it fully qualifies as an addiction. By the time they seek help, the problem has already been exacerbated beyond what many can tolerate. Almost all of them started using in their early teens. I have yet to see someone (addict or family of addict) get worse because of our program.

We have never ever used, been instructed to use, encouraged to use, been tempted to use, shame as a tool in any way, shape, or form, ever. I would suggest you read the online program materials including the Addiction and Family Support handbooks. They are the embodiment of the nitty-gritty of the Atonement of Jesus Christ in honesty, openness, charity, hope, and forgiveness.

 

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

So what to do?  Say porn viewing is not an addiction, in nearly all cases, and thus we shouldn't feel guilt over it?  Women need to stop feeling betrayed or cheated on when their husbands view porn?  I don't know.  I really don't understand this issue very well.  I will say, I think the porn industry is awful and has been the ruin of many people's lives. 

It is helpful to speak with women who have those feelings. How would you suggest they deny them?

Edited May 1, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

Maybe the conclusion is that while porn is an overall negative, pathologizing it makes it much much worse? 

Maybe.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, cinepro said:

This is an interesting study, and I wonder if it will affect how the Church deals with people who look at pornography:

Here is the source citation for the original study:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2017.1295013?journalCode=hjsr20&

 

Re: the two asterisks:

I have observed that individuals that tend to become addicted (to anything) have a pre-existing or co-occurring, unhealthy attitude toward their religion (and in many cases relationships) or religion (and relationships) in general. The seeds of both are the same, and because nobody’s perfect, everyone is vulnerable to addictions to one degree or another.

I’ve seen how people can do anything without remorse or shame once their conscience is seared, or if they do them “without the law,” or as an unaccountable person. None of these (but the last) would necessarily experience guilt until they haply found themselves in a position to repent. The role of religion is not to inspire fear that one is broken and powerless over porn, and that others will and should reject him for it, but to live a better way and repent, be converted and healed (3 Nephi 9:13), hence the connection to the first asterisk.

I think the Church promotes a healthy approach to religion in general; to avoiding and repenting of sin in general; and, where sin becomes an addiction, to recovery.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, Gray said:

Maybe the conclusion is that while porn is an overall negative, pathologizing it makes it much much worse? 

I think stigmatizing the pathology is what makes it much worse. The best therapy would not stigmatize pathology, and I think that is the issue brought out in the study. Human nature, depending on the societal mores at play, can tend to stigmatize a legitimate pathology, the most harmful stigmatization coming from the sufferer himself. People even stigmatize themselves when there is no recognized pathology (which might be a pathology in itself!), which is why they turn to whomever or whatever is within their reach for help and relief, for better or for worse.

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

Maybe the conclusion is that while porn is an overall negative, pathologizing it makes it much much worse? 

 "Pathologizing" or diagnosing addiction is the first step in recovery.  Example: Hi my name is ____ and I am an addict.  Contrary to what you might believe, diagnosing addiction can relieve some of the tremendous shame that is felt.  "You mean I am not just an immoral pervert that has terrible self-control?!"  "You mean this is not just a lust problem, but a brain chemistry/physiology problem?!"  "You mean in some ways I a victim of addiction and need support, help, and non-judgment."

Denial about addiction is very common.  It is only through accepting the reality of our addiction that we can receive the help that we need.

 

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

A study that measures self-perception has a problem from the get-go. It is the conclusion stated in the article that concerns me: "Treat the shame, not the porn." There is a push, especially in more common liberal feminist groups, to normalize porn. Yet porn is an assault on women. It has an underbelly that includes trafficking and torture, not to mention its encouragement of relieving men of seeing women as fellow human beings. (And please forgo the NotAllMan! appearance since porn is predominantly a male venue.)

Only radical feminism is making a stand against violence against women. Ironically, some countries have made gains against prostitution by arresting the johns rather than the victims. When people are being hurt, some shame is not a bad thing. If you are concerned about the victims rather than their users and abusers.

This is as absurd as telling c h i l d porn users to feel no shame, or to ignore the real problem...the producers and the people who make it profitable, the users. There needs to be a new look at what porn really is and to stop acting like it is little different than an entertaining movie. 

As for the addiction label, I can see "religious" people using that as a way to escape responsibility. There is a different meaning for that word, but it includes helplessness. I would certainly rather be labeled as an addict rather than as somebody who chooses to and enjoys watching women or children being used and abused. 

Despite what I said above, I do believe there is a point where something is rightly recognized as an "evil" that should be shut down immediately rather than merely a "pathology" that should not be stigmatize. This needn't even be a religious designation (though it helps); even a secular society rightly holds moral accountability over users for financially rewarding the abuse of the innocent and less powerful, as well as those who are being so rewarded.

[Tsuzuki]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

In my mind p0rn is more problematic because of the way it objectifies people. It's also been well-documented that there is abuse and exploitation that occurs in the creation of p0rn. Those things alone make it worse.

Not all porn is made the same way. There are some people who like making it themselves for fun, and some of it could be drawing, or even just text. There also isn't an agreed upon standard of what even constitutes porn. There's plenty of Hindu and Classical Greek religious art that some might consider porn, for example. It's the abuse and exploitation (in any profession) that are bad, not necessarily the porn itself.

[BlueDreams]

21 hours ago, cinepro said:

This is an interesting study, and I wonder if it will affect how the Church deals with people who look at pornography:

Here is the source citation for the original study:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224499.2017.1295013?journalCode=hjsr20&

 

Thanks for the study. I've heard of this before and find that it does apply for a subset of my peoples that I see for porn issues. There are plenty of ways to describe porn use without the label of addict. At the same time, I do thing that psychology today have kinda placed it in an either/or category towards porn addiction in this statement:

Quote

 Perception of pornography addiction is more important than actual pornography use in predicting many outcomes, and that the level of religious belief was especially important in predicting negative outcomes from porn use. What's fascinating is that already several critiques of this study's findings have been published online, coming from people who promote the porn addiction concept. Unfortunately, these people appear unwilling or unable to confront their part in spreading a damaging, harmful belief.

 and overextrapolates from at least what the abstract summary is stating.  I'm a bit of a middle ground person when it comes to this. I definitely think the term is overused and some porn addiction therapists and programs can accept the term without really gauging into their behaviors. That said, I do think there is something like an addiction that happens. With real symptoms and problems that getting away from a sense of religious edict doesn't just magically fix or even really alleviate. If I had to take a shot in the dark (mainly because I'm too tired to look things up), I would assume that some in the sex addict camp are critiquing this heavily with the concern that often comes up that focuses on no form of porn use really being an addiction. Or removing the label and reducing it to just a basic compulsion behavior. Which also can be problematic, particularly for those who are in massive denial that there is a problem when there is and its eating up the emotional and relational health. The other side of the debate has some serious blindspots as well...in part because often the people with porn-addictions are more likely to self-select therapists and programs that already buy into a porn-addict model. They are more likely to catch the more malleable and less intense problems, IMO (no evidence, just basic logic based off of the advice generally given in addiction groups and the snow-ball effect for most therapists).

Still I think nuance is key and there needs to be better dialogue about this that would be less likely to induce shame. Particularly teenagers. I would hesitate to describe any teen an addict no matter how frequent the use. Rather I think it would help to describe it as the rocky experience of learning how to healthily emotionally regulate, manage hormones, and a need for readjustment to better foster development. The church and the sex addicts camp could still (and honestly should IMO) push for regulation that would sharply minimize access to porn to people under 18 while doing this. For adults I would start by teaching both men and women about it, deemphasize fear-laden messages and ones more focused on a mercy orientation as opposed to all the evils that porn are. (I certainly don't like porn because it makes my job harder at times, but still). I could probably think of more but my neurons are turning off the lights in my brain.

 

With luv,

BD 
 

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by BlueDreams

[MormonVideoGame]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Denial about addiction is very common.  It is only through accepting the reality of our addiction that we can receive the help that we need.

There is no "porn addiction" in the medical field, being addicted to porn is like being addicted to facebook, apologetics, MDDB, video games, ancient scripture studies, text messages. Dr. Marty Klein (Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Certified Sex Therapist for over thirty year) wrote, "rare instances of people watching three hours of porn every night (a clearly self-destructive behavior that’s often more about the internet than about porn)" 

http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/skeptical-of-the-porn-skeptics/

7 hours ago, juliann said:

 Yet porn is an assault on women.

Please share the evidence, not assumptions, that porn increases violence towards women. The reality is that most married men watch porn. Some studies even found that porn helps to reduce rape assaults. 

Quote

is predominantly a male venue

g a y porn for men is also very popular. Is that an assault on men? 

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

How does this study square with those non-religious people who believe that porn use is bad?

Atheist starts popular Reddit group that focuses on quitting masturbation and porn use

It reminds me of Dehlins "why people leave the church" survey. Most Atheists don't think porn is bad. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It's also been well-documented that there is abuse and exploitation that occurs in the creation of p0rn.

Abuse and exploitation happens everywhere and all the time. Just go to your local gas station around 2:00 am and ask the employee. Please give us real data that proves abuse is more prevalent in the porn industry than everywhere else. Please don't cherry-pick. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Calm]

The abuse and exploitation does not have to be worse than everywhere else to merit regulation and enforcement of laws.  HJW in no way implied that it was such, just that it was "well documented" to be at a highly problematic level.

[MormonVideoGame]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

The abuse and exploitation does not have to be worse than everywhere else to merit regulation and enforcement of laws.  

and I agree that is the solution. Porn itself is not the problem.

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

  HJW in no way implied that it was such, just that it was "well documented" to be at a highly problematic level.

thanks for clarifying. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Calm]

So I tried to post a report of some studies, but the censor blocks references to certain illegal activities so will only be ably to post the link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johnhenry-westen/want-to-stop-sex-traffick_b_6563338.html

In particular see the paragraph citing the 2007 study.

Trying to find more neutral citations as most are from websites dedicated to stop human trafficking.  Not even going to try and cut and paste due to censor.

http://www.northwesternlawreview.org/online/human-trafficking-and-pornography

 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Calm

[Darren10]

22 hours ago, mapman said:

I'm glad that people from BYU published this, and I hope that it reaches the attention of our leaders. This supports the idea that the Mormon culture's emphasis on porn being an addiction is making things worse for people. Luckily BYU has great professional psychologists and counselors that know how to actually help people that are distressed over their porn usage.

I hope we can ditch our talks of porn-watching "killing love" or being a "new drug," and instead focus our outrage on the production side of porn. There is plenty wrong with the sex industry that goes against our beliefs, so we don't need to lay on shame onto consumers.

Open is very much a drug. It's extremely addicting. Just tonight I was conversing with one of my Uber riders about drug addiction. He spoke of his alcoholism and drug addictions with his friends. I spoke of my friends doing drugs and drinking but in particular a cousin of mine who became a cocaine addict. My rider and I agreed that in many instances, once addicted, you cannot even tease yourself by being around the former substance or even the people who still do it without the real risk of becoming drug dependent again.  We agreed that it is best to completely sever oneself from the former addiction and move on. In his case it was his his fiancé coming into his life and sobering him up and keeping him that way. 

How is porn addiction any different?

[Calm]

Not statistical data, but the expert opinion of a law enforcement professional (find "Randall"):

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/sex-trafficking-in-utah-worse-than-most-think/article_81125cb6-b38d-527d-ae64-9ce28c3e09bf.html

[juliann]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

 

Please share the evidence, not assumptions, that porn increases violence towards women. The reality is that most married men watch porn. Some studies even found that porn helps to reduce rape assaults. 

 

I said porn IS violence against women.  The reality is that porn users are supporting criminal acts. No one talks about it so nonchalantly when children are the victims, in fact, it would be despicable to do so. It is merely a matter of a year when a female ceases to be that minor child and then she becomes invisible.

[juliann]

50 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Abuse and exploitation happens everywhere and all the time. Just go to your local gas station around 2:00 am and ask the employee. Please give us real data that proves abuse is more prevalent in the porn industry than everywhere else. Please don't cherry-pick. 

Google sex trafficking and porn. Enjoy.

[Calm]

Consumers of porn need to be aware of the costs involved in the production of it just as consumers of clothing need to put some effort into rejecting sweat shop companies, consumers of meat products need to become aware of inhumane practices, consumers of pretty much everything need to know the cost in terms of pollution, etc.

Assuming that someone else is responsible for moral decisions in the creation of the products we consume and that we have no responsibility beyond paying for it will result in a degradation of our communities, imo.

It is highly unfortunate that the very thing that makes finding accurate data extremely important---the illegality of human trafficking in the porn industry---is the very thing that makes finding that data difficult.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is kind of a standard accusation family and loved ones of addicts will throw at an addict. "If you loved me you would stop."

When that much meaning is heaped onto a behavior like viewing p0rn, it is no wonder marriages have a hard time. It's not because of the actual viewing but because of the baggage heaped on top of it. "If you loved me you would stop. If you had more faith, you would stop. If you..."

This is how LDS ARP family groups help people learn. It's not about curing the addict. Only God and the addict can do that. It's about making the Atonement of Jesus an active part of your life, finding your own healing and peace, and being ready to respond when your addict comes to him/herself. There is nothing in recovery programs that teaches what you are saying here. Nothing.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Calling 2-3 times a month an addiction is silly. We might as call every sin an addiction. Are you a gossip addict? Are you a lying addict? Or maybe you're a diet coke addict because you have 2-3 per month. The language and the labeling is counterproductive. When the label of addict is watered down it overstates the non-addicts problem and under-cuts the value of the term for actual addicts who are struggling with real addictions.

How about many hours in the day? Persisting in the face of loss of family, job, children, self-respect, faith? This is what an addict does. You are setting up a straw man. A dangerous one, at that.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think the error of the self-diagnosis is implied since it is stated as part of the problem. Therefore if I mis-diagnose myself as an addict, when I'm not, I have an incorrect belief that I'm an addict. See how that works  

Have you ever spoken with a real porn addict or with someone who loves him/her?