Calm Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 PS: the website appears to have been last updated 9/1/2016. It may have scheduled updates rather than as needed.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 I've heard ARP referred to as a course in how to repent. That said, not every sin is an addiction, so not every instance of the repentance process need involve attendance at formal meetings. That does not mean, however, that a bishop and a penitent cannot employ ARP as part of the repentance process for that individual member.
Kenngo1969 Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 I've heard ARP referred to as a course in how to repent. That said, not every sin is an addiction, so not every instance of the repentance process need involve attendance at formal meetings. That does not mean, however, that a bishop and a penitent cannot employ ARP as part of the repentance process for that individual member.
pogi Posted May 5, 2017 Posted May 5, 2017 Apparently in Las Vegas, they have a separate youth group for those under 18. Quote YOUTH GROUP: those under the age of 18 (parents must accompany and attend separate meeting) http://www.lvarp.com/About_ARP.html I think that is a great idea. 3
Bernard Gui Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 It is a bear to keep web information up to date. The Church has a lot of stuff on the internet. It has to be a daunting task. 1
Bernard Gui Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 19 hours ago, pogi said: Apparently in Las Vegas, they have a separate youth group for those under 18. http://www.lvarp.com/About_ARP.html I think that is a great idea. Indeed, it is. Looks to me like the Las Vegas folks have put together a comprehensive program. Good on them!
Bernard Gui Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: I've heard ARP referred to as a course in how to repent. That said, not every sin is an addiction, so not every instance of the repentance process need involve attendance at formal meetings. That does not mean, however, that a bishop and a penitent cannot employ ARP as part of the repentance process for that individual member. True. However, the principles discussed in them constitute, IMO, the best "course on how to repent" the Church has produced. Anyone can benefit from them. The group manuals are available at https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/home?lang=eng Edited May 6, 2017 by Bernard Gui 2
why me Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) Porn is addictive. And this is not just a church conclusion. When porn hit the movie screens on Times Square in the 70s, it was quite a big thing. Porn theatres sprouted all over Times Square. But there was a stigma of going into the movie house and certainly no one wanted to meet a friend when walking out of the movie house. And of course, there were porn emporiums all over Times Square where one could walk in and put 25 cents in a box and watch a minute stag movie piece. It would take at least two dollars to see the whole stag film. So, why do I write this? Because back then, I saw many men addicted to such porn. They would get off of work and head down to Times Square to get their 'hit' and then head home to wife and kids. And if not a stag film, they would look at the sex magazines and look at the hard core pictures. I still remember my friend Freddie telling me one day: If porn gets in your blood, it is tough to get it out. This was back in the 70s. Freddie should know. He was a porn master with connections in the business. However, porn was still marginalized. It was not until the VHS that porn entered the home big time.and porn producers took advantage of its addictive nature to make billions of dollars for the business. And the VHS expanded the 'talent' pool beyond the handful of actors involved before the VHS: And then came the DVD and then the fall of communism which allowed countless beautiful women to enter the business, especially from Russia, the Czech Republic and Hungry. Now money is made through subscribing to private sites. And the owners of these sites are multi- millionaires. The best way to cure a porn addiction is to watch a porn scene being made. It is a real yawner because one then sees the human element. Nothing like on film at all. Porn producers are always trying to think of ways to keep the people hooked and they are doing a great job doing so. They are experts on human sexual psychology. Edited May 6, 2017 by why me
Bernard Gui Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, why me said: Porn is addictive. And this is not just a church conclusion. When porn hit the movie screens on Times Square in the 70s, it was quite a big thing. Porn theatres sprouted all over Times Square. But there was a stigma of going into the movie house and certainly no one wanted to meet a friend when walking out of the movie house. And of course, there were porn emporiums all over Times Square where one could walk in and put 25 cents in a box and watch a minute stag movie piece. It would take at least two dollars to see the whole stag film. So, why do I write this? Because back then, I saw many men addicted to such porn. They would get off of work and head down to Times Square to get their 'hit' and then head home to wife and kids. And if not a stag film, they would look at the sex magazines and look at the hard core pictures. I still remember my friend Freddie telling me one day: If porn gets in your blood, it is tough to get it out. This was back in the 70s. Freddie should know. He was a porn master with connections in the business. However, porn was still marginalized. It was not until the VHS that porn entered the home big time.and porn producers took advantage of its addictive nature to make billions of dollars for the business. And the VHS expanded the 'talent' pool beyond the handful of actors involved before the VHS: And then came the DVD and then the fall of communism which allowed countless beautiful women to enter the business, especially from Russia, the Czech Republic and Hungry. Now money is made through subscribing to private sites. And the owners of these sites are multi- millionaires. The best way to cure a porn addiction is to watch a porn scene being made. It is a real yawner because one then sees the human element. Nothing like on film at all. Porn producers are always trying to think of ways to keep the people hooked and they are doing a great job doing so. They are experts on human sexual psychology. Didn't someone say something about, um, the consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation— Edited May 6, 2017 by Bernard Gui 1
why me Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Didn't someone say something about, um, the consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation— The BYU study was off the mark by bringing in religion and porn addiction. Porn addiction has to do with a human being's enjoyment in watching other humans having sex on screen and with porn producers understanding human sexology. However, it may not be the porn addiction itself that is the problem but the idea that church members enjoy watching others sin on screen. Thus, the problem with porn.
Calm Posted May 6, 2017 Posted May 6, 2017 Have you read the actual study? Not just the reports of it, as they can overstate what was found.
pogi Posted May 7, 2017 Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, why me said: Porn addiction has to do with a human being's enjoyment in watching other humans having sex on screen... That is far too simplistic. Addiction is more than just liking something a lot. 17 hours ago, why me said: However, it may not be the porn addiction itself that is the problem but the idea that church members enjoy watching others sin on screen. Thus, the problem with porn. The "addiction itself" is not the problem? That is crazy talk! Again, it is not about "enjoying watching others sin on screen". Most addicts in recovery HATE porn. It makes them sick to think that they can't stop something they hate. The real problem is that they don't know where else to turn (never learned healthy coping mechanisms) or how to address the issues that they are hiding from. The real problem is that they are terrified to stop, not because they love watching porn, but because it would force them to face their demons. The real problem is that people like you influence them to believe that they are just dirty little perverts who love sining and watching others sin. This is shame talk and only deepens the addiction. No, no, no, the problem is NOT that they love watching porn - the problem is that they are "slaves" to sin. Paul gives the best description that I have ever read in scripture of what it feels like to be addicted to porn, in Romans 7: Quote We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do... As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! "What a wretched man I am!" That is how addicts feel inside. That is toxic shame which drives the addiction. Jesus Christ can save us from such toxic shame, and from the addiction of "doing what we hate", but please don't accuse porn addicts of being lovers of sin. That is shaming and inaccurate Edited May 7, 2017 by pogi 2
HappyJackWagon Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) On 5/5/2017 at 4:19 PM, Bernard Gui said: From me to MC, Seattle Regional Director, LDS Family Services: To me from MC, Seattle Regional Director, LDS Family Services: Brother C was accurate in the guidance he gave me. It is not a regional policy. The meetings are for adults which means 18 or older. I consider this a stake in the heart, a silver bullet, a dose of pure sunlight, and a garlic necklace to this controversy. I hope HJW passes this on to his director and the bishops in his area stop requiring youth to attend his meetings. Now let us move on. Best wishes to all. Bernard This fills the requirement of a CFR. More arguing will get the thread closed. Quote Apparently the site hasn’t been updated to reflect the change. Please find an email excerpt below from the Program Manager over ARP system-wide as of February 27th as “proof.” By the way, “EC” stands for Executive Council, which is where decisions are made on a system-wide level. "This was just discussed by the EC. My understanding is that attendance is for 'adults' only. While we don’t 'card' attendees, we should make sure our staff are communicating to priesthood leaders and others that the group is intended for 'adults' which we are defining as 18 and older." I will send an email to our Central Offices to let them know about the policy change and the site that appear to contradict. Thanks, MC, LICSW - Manager LDS Family Services 1201 Monster Road SW, Suite 250 Renton, WA 98057 I appreciate the CFR and accept the mods statement that the CFR is fulfilled since anyone who would like can contact the source of the information, but that still doesn't guarantee that this source is correct about the information. BG-I have not doubted that you have reason to believe there is a policy but I still don't find this to be definitive. This is correspondence from a person who is sharing his "understanding" about a meeting where this topic was discussed. That doesn't sound like a definitive policy to me but I certainly understand why you feel so strongly about making the claim you are making. It is understandable even though it's still not definitive. If a policy is ever put in writing I will be happy to pass it on to my regional director, but this person's understanding about a meeting conversation doesn't qualify. I heard back from my Regional guy this morning. He said he was unable to find any other policy that limits youth participation beyond what was already shared from LDS.org and the ARP manual about parental participation. He is meeting with colleagues today and will ask for their assistance to find a policy (if one exists). So if there was a communication he missed his colleagues (whoever they are) may be able to educate him. Otherwise, his understanding is still different than the Seattle Region for inclusion of youth in ARP meetings. So we are right back where we began: This seems to be a policy in the Seattle Region but it is not in mine. One Regional's claim doesn't override another Regional's claim. There is no "stake to the heart". Sorry BG. IF/when I hear back from my regional guy I will share, whether or not he gains new knowledge/information about this. Edited May 8, 2017 by HappyJackWagon 3
maple22 Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 Here is a very extensive critique of the BYU study: Critique of: "Damaged Goods: Perception of Pornography Addiction as a Mediator Between Religiosity and Relationship Anxiety Surrounding Pornography Use" (Leonhardt, Willoughby, & Young-Petersen, 2017)
pogi Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 27 minutes ago, maple22 said: Here is a very extensive critique of the BYU study: Critique of: "Damaged Goods: Perception of Pornography Addiction as a Mediator Between Religiosity and Relationship Anxiety Surrounding Pornography Use" (Leonhardt, Willoughby, & Young-Petersen, 2017) That is a very interesting critique which makes a lot of really good points, but he also makes some bad arguments, contradicting himself. One way he contradicts himself is by making the argument that the level of P use is not linearly related to P addiction (I think I agree with him there), but at the same time he tries to argue that religious people are less likely to view P and therefore are less likely to become P addicts. Well, if there is no linear relation to addiction, how can he make that argument? He does make a fairly good argument that the BYU study is a little misleading in that it tries to correlate the "perception" of addiction with P related problems such as relationship anxiety, when in fact the questionnaire they used to determine "perception" of addiction may be a better assessment tool to determine actual addiction rather than just "perception" of addiction. The argument is that it is not just "perceived" addiction that causes relationship anxiety, but actual addiction. These are the 5 questions they used to determine "perception" of addiction: 1) “My thoughts about pornography are causing problems in my life,” 2) ”My desires to view pornography disrupt my daily life,” 3) “I sometimes fail to meet my commitments and responsibilities because of my pornography use,” 4) “Sometimes my desire to view pornography is so great I lose control,” 5) “I have to struggle to not view pornography.” If you replaced "P" with "alcohol" in these questions, it becomes clear that they may be a fairly good indicator of actual addiction and not just perception of addiction: 1) “My thoughts about using alcohol are causing problems in my life,” 2) ”My desire to use alcohol disrupts my daily life,” 3) “I sometimes fail to meet my commitments and responsibilities because of my alcohol use,” 4) “Sometimes my desire to drink alcohol is so great I lose control,” 5) “I have to struggle to not use alcohol.” 2
Calm Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/help?lang=eng "There are recovery meetings for individuals who struggle, as well as support meetings for family or friends of those who struggle. Meetings are focused on either general addiction or on pornography and sexual addiction. Meetings are 60 to 90 minutes long, ongoing, and are held year-round. No referral is necessary. Those 18 years of age and older can come with a parent or guardian. Dress is casual and modest." The person I contacted through feedback hadn't been informed of the update. When she checked, it was confirmed and she altered it. However, I notice there is the typo of not removing the entire sentence, I will let her know and that will likely be removed in a day or two. BG's information was up to date. Understandable why others were not aware of it. Hopefully HJW's area was insisting parents or guardian were there for youth according to that policy and are now becoming aware of the change in policy. Perhaps HJW can let them know. Youth groups may become more widespread now this policy is in place. That is my hope. Edited May 8, 2017 by Calm
HappyJackWagon Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 57 minutes ago, Calm said: https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/help?lang=eng "There are recovery meetings for individuals who struggle, as well as support meetings for family or friends of those who struggle. Meetings are focused on either general addiction or on pornography and sexual addiction. Meetings are 60 to 90 minutes long, ongoing, and are held year-round. No referral is necessary. Those 18 years of age and older can come with a parent or guardian. Dress is casual and modest." The person I contacted through feedback hadn't been informed of the update. When she checked, it was confirmed and she altered it. However, I notice there is the typo of not removing the entire sentence, I will let her know and that will likely be removed in a day or two. BG's information was up to date. Understandable why others were not aware of it. Hopefully HJW's area was insisting parents or guardian were there for youth according to that policy and are now becoming aware of the change in policy. Perhaps HJW can let them know. Youth groups may become more widespread now this policy is in place. That is my hope. I think I'll wait for accurate information to be disseminated through appropriate channels.
Bernard Gui Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: I think I'll wait for accurate information to be disseminated through appropriate channels. Or, for faster results, you can phone Brother C. I would be happy to phone your contact and share this information. Is he a FS employee? In the meantime, I would suspend any invitations or assignments for youth to attend adult support meetings. Bad idea. Quote I received confirmation from our Central Office just now that the policy is still 18 and older only. The ARP site unfortunately had not been updated. That said, now that they are aware, the site will now be updated. Thanks! MC, LICSW - Manager LDS Family Services Edited May 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui 3
Calm Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: I think I'll wait for accurate information to be disseminated through appropriate channels. I think looking to the official channels for information is best, I am just suggesting they might speed up the process by requesting info just as I and BG probably sped up the process by pointing to those we could appropriately contact that the ARP site was out of date. The policy was changed for a reason. I suspect it was to protect youth from being exposed to comments that might be too explicit. It also allows the adults participating to not have to worry so much about editing their words, thus allowing for meetings to be more open and therefore more effective. I see putting extra effort into seeing the policy is made widely known to be protective of those who need protecting. I am not suggesting going outside of the appropriate channels, just suggesting you suggest to everyone you know involved that they ask upstream for updated info so the positive changes in the policy can be instigated quickly. My local ARP office (Provo) were aware of the February changes as was BG's (Seattle). It seems likely the info was widely spread given these are two different regions in Church structure. It is possible if someone missed a meeting they missed the update, possible an announcement wasn't read as closely as it should have been and possible that leaders doing the training upstream assume that the change in policy was registered by all needing to know and so it hasn't been repeated as it probably should have if this is what happened. It seems like wisdom to me to be proactive in encouraging our leaders to stay informed on policy, especially when it protects our youth. Even if the policy is being disseminated through regions at different times, given the importance of the policy in protecting youth, I don't see it as inappropriate for some grassroots pushing to speed things up. Edited May 8, 2017 by Calm 2
Calm Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) I went back and reread the email sent me. It states the information which led to the change in the text was received from "those who oversee the Addiction Program". Also something I didn't register (had just woke up and was focused on what I had asked her), there is no information yet given to the people running the website on what they mean to do for youth. If anyone wants the specific comments, I can ask permission to post the email, but I feel the ARP website provides all the useful information the email has, so while normally I would do that, I haven't in this case. Edited May 8, 2017 by Calm
Calm Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 The website has been changed to remove the typo: "There are recovery meetings for individuals who struggle, as well as support meetings for family or friends of those who struggle. Meetings are focused on either general addiction or on pornography and sexual addiction. Meetings are 60 to 90 minutes long, ongoing, and are held year-round. No referral is necessary. Meetings are for those 18 and older. Dress is casual and modest." 1
HappyJackWagon Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, Calm said: The website has been changed to remove the typo: "There are recovery meetings for individuals who struggle, as well as support meetings for family or friends of those who struggle. Meetings are focused on either general addiction or on pornography and sexual addiction. Meetings are 60 to 90 minutes long, ongoing, and are held year-round. No referral is necessary. Meetings are for those 18 and older. Dress is casual and modest." Now that the policy is public and official I'm totally on board with it.
Calm Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) Great, but why weren't you onboard when I posted the same thing plus the obvious typo above? Edited May 8, 2017 by Calm
HappyJackWagon Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 17 minutes ago, Calm said: Great, but why weren't you onboard when I posted the same thing plus the obvious typo above? Same reason BG's personal conversations with a guy weren't good enough. It wasn't official and so I didn't give it that weight. Now that it states what is and isn't acceptable on the website, it is a policy that can be followed. Before that it was merely speculation and good intentions.
Bernard Gui Posted May 8, 2017 Posted May 8, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: Great, but why weren't you onboard when I posted the same thing plus the obvious typo above? The response from lds.org to my inquiry: Quote LDS Response Team responded on May 8, 2017 at 11:21 AM as follows: Hi, again, ....... from those who oversee the Addiction Recovery Program. The policy was changed a little while back. Groups are now restricted to those who are 18 and older. The website was just updated to reflect this policy change. We have received multiple requests for ARP groups that are catered towards youth, but have not received any information as to whether or not this is being considered. Again, thank you for your service! Edited May 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui
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