rongo Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 And has this overall been a good thing? Would it have been better to have retain the priesthood office of seventy (outside of general and area seventies)?
Duncan Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/11/news-of-the-church/stake-seventies-quorums-discontinued?lang=eng doesn't look like much info as to why it was done away with.
stemelbow Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 SOunds like uselessness was a motivating factor. hmmm...I wonder if ever they apply that logic to other groups and callings...
clarkgoble Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Main reason was that as a practical matter the way they needed to use Seventies required them to be High Priests. 2
Ahab Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Their calling was to assist with stake missionary work at the stake level, but as you may have noticed since then, there are no more stake missionaries, either. Now we have ward missionaries at the ward level, along with full-time missionaries. The reason seems to have been to coordinate missionary work at the ward level, instead of at the stake level.
cinepro Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Ahab said: Their calling was to assist with stake missionary work at the stake level, but as you may have noticed since then, there are no more stake missionaries, either. Now we have ward missionaries at the ward level, along with full-time missionaries. The reason seems to have been to coordinate missionary work at the ward level, instead of at the stake level. Stake missionaries weren't done away with until the 2000s.
Ahab Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 1 minute ago, cinepro said: Stake missionaries weren't done away with until the 2000s. CFR with no pressure. It seemed sooner to me, as I recall. But yeah first they discontinued the stake seventy callings and then later they discontinued the stake missionary callings. I was a stake missionary when they discontinued that calling and was then reassigned as a ward missionary
cinepro Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, Ahab said: CFR with no pressure. It seemed sooner to me, as I recall. But yeah first they discontinued the stake seventy callings and then later they discontinued the stake missionary callings. I was a stake missionary when they discontinued that calling and was then reassigned as a ward missionary https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/06/news-of-the-church?lang=eng 2
Garden Girl Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 24 minutes ago, Ahab said: CFR with no pressure. It seemed sooner to me, as I recall. But yeah first they discontinued the stake seventy callings and then later they discontinued the stake missionary callings. I was a stake missionary when they discontinued that calling and was then reassigned as a ward missionary I served a stake mission (2 years) just prior to the discontinuing... I loved it and would go on splits several times a week. And, I taught the new member follow-up lessons... GG 1
CV75 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 1 hour ago, rongo said: And has this overall been a good thing? Would it have been better to have retain the priesthood office of seventy (outside of general and area seventies)? https://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/a-history-of-the-latter-day-seventy?lang=eng "This announcement was in keeping with President Brigham Young’s statement more than 138 years earlier: “The Seventies are not called to be a local body, but are ordained … to travel, ordain local officers, and build up and set in order the whole Kingdom of God upon the earth, wherever it is necessary.” " I'd say that meeting changing needs is a good thing. 2
Ahab Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, Garden Girl said: I served a stake mission (2 years) just prior to the discontinuing... I loved it and would go on splits several times a week. And, I taught the new member follow-up lessons... GG Yep I did the same things. Lots to do but can't imagine it being enough to keep 70 administration level 70s in each stake busy. Would be interesting to find out how the workload shifted from stake 70s to stake missionaries. And how much stake 70s helped to easy the workload of the stake presidents. And how much more time it added to the ward mission leader's workload. ... To be able to see the big picture in all its dynamics. Like our highest administrators see. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 1 hour ago, clarkgoble said: Main reason was that as a practical matter the way they needed to use Seventies required them to be High Priests. I think Clark is largely right about this. It also tended to pigeon hole people into only one type of calling. Being a 70 was like being an eternal member missionary but of course leadership needs would then require a 70 to be advanced to HP to serve in a bishopric etc. There was also an unintended consequence that missionary work was only the work of the 70's. So if you weren't a 70 or were no longer a 70, you were off the hook 2
HappyJackWagon Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 20 minutes ago, Garden Girl said: I served a stake mission (2 years) just prior to the discontinuing... I loved it and would go on splits several times a week. And, I taught the new member follow-up lessons... GG They still can do this, but as ward missionaries instead of stake. It really just moved the "mission leadership" from the stake to ward level. 1
hope_for_things Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said: I think Clark is largely right about this. It also tended to pigeon hole people into only one type of calling. Being a 70 was like being an eternal member missionary but of course leadership needs would then require a 70 to be advanced to HP to serve in a bishopric etc. There was also an unintended consequence that missionary work was only the work of the 70's. So if you weren't a 70 or were no longer a 70, you were off the hook In the early church, the 12 Apostles were also missionaries. This largely changed after the death of Joseph Smith and the new direction Brigham took the church, but before that missionary work was their primary mission, not administration of the church. 1
ksfisher Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: CFR with no pressure. It seemed sooner to me, as I recall. But yeah first they discontinued the stake seventy callings and then later they discontinued the stake missionary callings. I was a stake missionary when they discontinued that calling and was then reassigned as a ward missionary I was called to be a stake missionary in the late 90's. 97, 98 mabye. Edited April 10, 2017 by ksfisher
ksfisher Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 30 minutes ago, hope_for_things said: In the early church, the 12 Apostles were also missionaries. This largely changed after the death of Joseph Smith and the new direction Brigham took the church, but before that missionary work was their primary mission, not administration of the church. There really wasn't a lot of church to administer then.
JLHPROF Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 2 hours ago, rongo said: And has this overall been a good thing? Would it have been better to have retain the priesthood office of seventy (outside of general and area seventies)? Debate over hierarchial positioning. Same reason the Presiding Patriarch was dropped. Reading the history on both Seventies and the Presiding Patriarchs is fascinating. Both were considered higher callings that were causing conflicts with lower callings.
rongo Posted April 10, 2017 Author Posted April 10, 2017 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: Sounds like uselessness was a motivating factor. Boy, I couldn't disagree with this more. It's a revealed priesthood office whose use and organization is covered in section 107. I think killing it in the 1980s is tragic. The reason I asked was I was reading the very end of B.H. Roberts's autobiography again last night, which deals with his (and the other presidents of the 70 --- particularly, J. Golden Kimball) sharp disagreement with President Grant and the Twelve's pending decision to make the seventies' quorums stake quorums. He includes his letters, and I think from an evidence and argument standpoint, he had the stronger position (no contest). He presciently said that they might as well do away with the office entirely and just make them high priests, using their logic (which is exactly what happened in the 1980s), and he convincingly pointed out that, while the President can do whatever he wants, doing so would be contrary to revelation and without a revelation backing it. As it happens, the changes were made as policy changes without a revelation. One of his sticking points was that, by revelation, the quorums are general, not stake. They transcend stake boundaries, and are outside of the authority of the stake president (until the Church changed that in the 1920s). They answered to the seven presidents of the seventy and the First Quorum of the Seventy. I was also among the last stake missionaries. What I miss about it was the requirement to spend 10 hours a week doing missionary work (moving to ward missionaries dropped any time requirement). My wife and I were newlyweds, and had a good time independently doing our work (our ward was antagonistic to missionary work. Our bishop told us not to ask anyone to split with us, and we were pretty much on our own. We really enjoyed the time, though). Why was the Presiding Patriarch done away with? No lineal Smith descendant? 1
JAHS Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 I was one of the very last of the 70s to be called to that office. A week or so later we found out that they were discontinuing the 70's office and pretty much gave us a choice to either go back to elders or move into high priests. I was pretty young at the time and would not have fit in with the high priests so I stuck with the elders quorum. I think because the full-time missionary force had grown to such great numbers and the mission field was starting to include Utah and Idaho more and more, that the local Seventies quorums were no longer needed. Stake Seventies Quorums Discontinued Pursuant to the announcement made by President Ezra Taft Benson at the conclusion of the general priesthood meeting of October conference, we outline the following to provide a renewed impetus in missionary work throughout the stakes of the Church: 1. Stake Seventies Quorums to Be Discontinued In harmony with the needs of the growth of the Church across the world, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles have given prayerful consideration to the role of stake seventies quorums in the Church and have determined that the seventies quorums in the stakes of the Church are to be discontinued. The brethren serving as seventies in these quorums will now be members of the elders quorum in their ward. Stake presidents, in an orderly fashion, will determine who among such brethren may be ordained to the office of high priest. 2. Stake Missionary Work The members of the stake presidency coordinate missionary work in the stake. They are assisted in this responsibility by a high council adviser to the stake mission. A missionary-minded Melchizedek Priesthood holder should promptly be called as the stake mission president. His two counselors should likewise be missionary oriented. The members of the stake mission presidency train the stake missionaries and assist in the coordination of missionary work in the stake. Bishops of wards will recommend to the stake presidency those individuals who might be extended calls to serve as stake missionaries. Stake missionaries are called by the stake president and are set apart under his direction. Generally, at least two stake missionaries should be called from each ward. These missionaries may or may not be asked to serve in their own ward, depending on the needs of the stake mission and the number and distribution of nonmembers. The primary responsibility for teaching the gospel rests with the full-time missionaries. However, stake missionaries may assist as needed to extend the teaching force of the full-time mission by serving in a team-teaching capacity as temporary companions with the full-time missionaries. It would be advisable for stake missionaries to be trained in teaching the discussions to ensure that their effectiveness is not impaired when full-time missionaries are not available. Under the direction of the stake mission presidency, the stake missionaries cooperate with the full-time proselyting missionaries in finding, friendshipping, fellowshipping, and fostering member participation in all missionary activities. 3. Ward Missionary Work The members of the bishopric coordinate missionary work in the ward. Depending on the number of nonmembers available, they may be assisted in this responsibility by a ward mission leader who is a Melchizedek Priesthood holder serving as a stake missionary. The ward mission leader is a member of the ward priesthood executive committee and the ward council where he assists in the coordination of missionary work in the ward. 4. Operating Funds The operating funds of stake seventies quorums should be forwarded to Church headquarters to become part of the General Missionary Fund of the Church. In the event that a stake seventies quorum operated a project or owned property, the stake presidency should, after prayerful consideration, submit its recommendation to the First Presidency concerning the disposition of such projects or properties. 5. Additional Instructions Additional information that may be required regarding missionary work in the stakes and wards will be provided through the Bulletin, revisions of the General Handbook of Instructions, and other handbooks and/or guides. At this time, we express our appreciation to all who have served as members of stake seventies quorums of the Church and commend those who have so ably given of their time, talents, and resources in spreading forth the gospel of Jesus Christ. 2
Ahab Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 8 minutes ago, rongo said: One of his sticking points was that, by revelation, the quorums are general, not stake. They transcend stake boundaries, and are outside of the authority of the stake president (until the Church changed that in the 1920s). They answered to the seven presidents of the seventy and the First Quorum of the Seventy. That is still true for the quoroms of 70 that were/are not stake quorums of 70. Sounds like it wasn't until the 1920s that stake quorums of 70 were formed, which is what was discontinued in the 1980s.
hope_for_things Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 2 hours ago, ksfisher said: There really wasn't a lot of church to administer then. It wasn't that so much as it was the high council that did the administering, they were on the same level as the apostles, just different division of duties. Things have obviously changed today.
clarkgoble Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 51 minutes ago, Ahab said: That is still true for the quoroms of 70 that were/are not stake quorums of 70. Sounds like it wasn't until the 1920s that stake quorums of 70 were formed, which is what was discontinued in the 1980s. It's worth noting that the structure of the Church has had to adjust to both the small eastern to central western Church through the 1840's, to the trek to Utah, to a period where most of the members were in England not Utah, to the centralization of the Church in the Utah region, to the rise of correlation and the modern church of the 1930's through 1980's, to the contemporary Church where members in the US either are or soon will be the minority. I'd expect that in the future we may have 100 million members. That means it has to be very flexible and may need to adjust to situations we don't yet know of. Since the church structure was made for the members and not the opposite, we should expect changes. 1
CV75 Posted April 10, 2017 Posted April 10, 2017 Another article: https://www.lds.org/prophets-and-apostles/the-unfolding-role-of-the-seventy-time-line?lang=eng 1 hour ago, rongo said: President Grant and the Twelve's pending decision to make the seventies' quorums stake quorums. In this article, this stake-level organization began earlier, under President Taylor: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/the-seventies-a-historical-perspective?lang=eng
strappinglad Posted April 11, 2017 Posted April 11, 2017 I assume that all the current members of the GA Seventies are ordained High Priests???
The Nehor Posted April 11, 2017 Posted April 11, 2017 23 minutes ago, strappinglad said: I assume that all the current members of the GA Seventies are ordained High Priests??? Yeah, all seventies were made High Priests. There are probably a few ordained seventies still out there. I found a few on my mission on ward rosters, all less active. In a few more decades they will all be dead.
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